Do you guys consider Bilbao's player policy racist?

che wrote:barcelona playing a lot of local players = amazing, genius, every club should promote local talent

bilbao playing only local players = ZOMG RACIST!!!111!



sure it would get boring if all clubs did it but seriously...

why aren't we questioning the only-3-non-eu-players rule by the way? or serie a's 2 non-eu per transfer period? or the entire system of work permits, not just in football?

stop the politically correct bullshit please

Where's the +1 when you need it ffs.

Arquitecto wrote:

rwo power wrote:@Arqui

Bavarians have their own language, too. Ask any German (or as the Bavarians would say "Prussian") outside of Bavaria
(And it might surprise you, but there is actually a political party in Bavaria that works on trying to turn Bavaria into a sovereign country...)

No no RWO you have misunderstood me here.

You must understand Euskera (Basque native language) has absolutely no relation to Espanol in any sort of way. Prussian is still a part of the Germanic language (Austro-German) as it doesn't have such disparities as compared to Euskera. So in that sense it is harder to justify Bavarian independence.

And I'm also aware of the Bavarian movement for separation yet that is a relatively small group similar to Canada's Quebec group (who also aim for independence)

As I studied linguistics, I'm aware of the fascinating properties of the Basque language vs the surrounding IndoEuropean languages

Please forgive me making a bit fun of the Bavarians - as I belong to the evil Prussians (according to them - a Bavarian friend of mine loves to call me "a Saupreißn", albeit in jest) I should be allowed to

Che

Maybe because Barca's youth's are being promoted as being Catalan?

zizzle wrote:so just because its football clubs can be racist...okay

a) not racist, they accept pretty much anyone with a connection to the basque region, it's not like there's a huge sign at the stadium saying "no darkies"

b) club, not clubS... like i said it would be weird if everyone did it, that's what national teams are for, but with a single club that's basically being used as an entire nation's identity i think we can stop whining for a bit... certainly better if basques get behind THEIR football club that plays THEIR players than having them express their nationalism through blowing up trains

Zealous wrote:You guys are getting into a different discussion and are sort of missing the point. Racist or not Bilbao's policy is a form of discrimination (I think we can all agree on that) which is what op wants to discuss.

It's discrimination against home-grown players or players who have a tie to the club's origins. But it's not discrimination against any ethnic group or nationality. It doesn't matter if the person is muslim, black, jewish or native american - so long as he came through their youth. They see themselves as an extension of the Basque country, in their eyes they're probably more of a national team than a club.

Luca wrote:Sorry arq, I guess I was looking at your username but quoted che

zizzle wrote:so just because its football clubs can be racist...okay

Football clubs are like a private business, they're allowed to sign and release players without hesitation under their own governance

a private business will get sued to oblivion if they have such a hiring policy.

rwo power wrote:

Arquitecto wrote:

rwo power wrote:@Arqui

Bavarians have their own language, too. Ask any German (or as the Bavarians would say "Prussian") outside of Bavaria
(And it might surprise you, but there is actually a political party in Bavaria that works on trying to turn Bavaria into a sovereign country...)

No no RWO you have misunderstood me here.

You must understand Euskera (Basque native language) has absolutely no relation to Espanol in any sort of way. Prussian is still a part of the Germanic language (Austro-German) as it doesn't have such disparities as compared to Euskera. So in that sense it is harder to justify Bavarian independence.

And I'm also aware of the Bavarian movement for separation yet that is a relatively small group similar to Canada's Quebec group (who also aim for independence)

As I studied linguistics, I'm aware of the fascinating properties of the Basque language vs the surrounding IndoEuropean languages

Please forgive me making a bit fun of the Bavarians - as I belong to the evil Prussians (according to them - a Bavarian friend of mine loves to call me "a Saupreißn", albeit in jest) I should be allowed to

I'm glad you are adept in the knowledge of these languages as it brings me pride for someone outside the region to be well learned on its roots.

Speaking of Bavarians theres a reason why they are called "The Texas of Germany" Or the "Hicks of Germany". In essence Basque Country is the Bavaria of Espana in many many ways.

In essence, Bavarians are infamous for their snobbery as I can take a guess that you and Viva both aren't to fond of them.

Luca wrote:Sorry arq, I guess I was looking at your username but quoted che

zizzle wrote:so just because its football clubs can be racist...okay

Football clubs are like a private business, they're allowed to sign and release players without hesitation under their own governance

Not really. Anti-discrimination laws exist in many countries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anti-discrimination_acts

Most of them force the private and public sector to apply equal opportunity standards when they hire someone. For example, you would get sued badly if you were found to discriminate your employment practices based on ethnicity in the US. You could get even shut down if it was prevalent...

why does anyone even care ffs... bilbao are an anomaly in the football world, and it's not like players can't go elsewhere... football doesn't work like the job market, they don't put up advertisements for positions and reject applicants because their names don't end with -itz

this is like atheists whining about catholic church only allowing catholics in their positions of power

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

Zealous wrote:You guys are getting into a different discussion and are sort of missing the point. Racist or not Bilbao's policy is a form of discrimination (I think we can all agree on that) which is what op wants to discuss.

It's discrimination against home-grown players or players who have a tie to the club's origins. But it's not discrimination against any ethnic group or nationality. It doesn't matter if the person is muslim, black, jewish or native american - so long as he came through their youth. They see themselves as an extension of the Basque country, in their eyes they're probably more of a national team than a club.

@Zeal, the OP asked if it is Racist to be more specific where it has been proven it is not.

And said Alfred. There is no discrimination on religion or political stance as the only condition is almost like acquiring an Italian passport. As long as you are educated in your roots/heritage, identify well with your Basque roots (have to be direct) along with allegiance to the Basque nationality crest.

In many ways its a very welcoming system

In the US you would get sued if you were being considered for a job and then you were denied in spite of being the better candidate because of your race/ethnicity/whatever. At Bilbao, they are the ones who go out looking for candidates, they don't even consider other players, so this scenario is impossible.

che wrote:why does anyone even care ffs... bilbao are an anomaly in the football world, and it's not like players can't go elsewhere... football doesn't work like the job market, they don't put up advertisements for positions and reject applicants because their names don't end with -itz

this is like atheists whining about catholic church only allowing catholics in their positions of power

being a catholic is a choice. being from a certain region is not

BarrileteCosmico wrote:In the US you would get sued if you were being considered for a job and then you were denied in spite of being the better candidate because of your race/ethnicity/whatever. At Bilbao, they are the ones who go out looking for candidates, they don't even consider other players, so this scenario is impossible.

this might be a legal technicality but the fact remains that they have discriminatory policies

Arquitecto wrote:

rwo power wrote:As I studied linguistics, I'm aware of the fascinating properties of the Basque language vs the surrounding IndoEuropean languages

Please forgive me making a bit fun of the Bavarians - as I belong to the evil Prussians (according to them - a Bavarian friend of mine loves to call me "a Saupreißn", albeit in jest) I should be allowed to

I'm glad you are adept in the knowledge of these languages as it brings me pride for someone outside the region to be well learned on its roots.

Speaking of Bavarians theres a reason why they are called "The Texas of Germany" Or the "Hicks of Germany". In essence Basque Country is the Bavaria of Espana in many many ways.

In essence, Bavarians are infamous for their snobbery as I can take a guess that you and Viva both aren't to fond of them.

As a matter of fact, I'm glad that the Basque people are so strongly working on preserving their language. There are too many languages that have died out by now and a unique language like Basque would be a great loss.

As for not being so fond of Bavarians - as a matter of fact, I know quite some and get along well with them. But that doesn't mean I can't make fun of them (and vice versa).

But we digress again... Back to topic!

What I'd love to know - is Basque the working language at Athletic Bilbao? If yes that would be an elegant way to discourage foreign players right away as there are not too many people outside the region that speak it...

I want to see if I understand this correctly. Let's take a young French boy from Provence, age 4 let's say. His parents decide to move to the Basque region of Spain and by the age of 12, The kid begins to show serious talent in football.

Considering their policy on local talent, would Bilbao pick this boy up and foster him through their ranks since his family now has ties to the Basque region dating back 8 years? Would he be considered "Basque" enough to join them? If what I understood from the previous pages, the answer should be yes.

that barca example is stupid,Barca youth teams have players from all over the world.Messi,Thiago,dos santos,Rafinha etc

That is my question as well,can a andalucian kid get into Athletic academy if he was born and raised in Basque country but does not have basque ancestry ?

Arquitecto wrote:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

Zealous wrote:You guys are getting into a different discussion and are sort of missing the point. Racist or not Bilbao's policy is a form of discrimination (I think we can all agree on that) which is what op wants to discuss.

It's discrimination against home-grown players or players who have a tie to the club's origins. But it's not discrimination against any ethnic group or nationality. It doesn't matter if the person is muslim, black, jewish or native american - so long as he came through their youth. They see themselves as an extension of the Basque country, in their eyes they're probably more of a national team than a club.

@Zeal, the OP asked if it is Racist to be more specific where it has been proven it is not.

And said Alfred. There is no discrimination on religion or political stance as the only condition is almost like acquiring an Italian passport. As long as you are educated in your roots/heritage, identify well with your Basque roots (have to be direct) along with allegiance to the Basque nationality crest.

In many ways its a very welcoming system

Racist is the wrong word I agree. Let's just say for sake of argument that the word used is discrimination.

sportsczy wrote:

Luca wrote:Sorry arq, I guess I was looking at your username but quoted che

zizzle wrote:so just because its football clubs can be racist...okay

Football clubs are like a private business, they're allowed to sign and release players without hesitation under their own governance

Not really. Anti-discrimination laws exist in many countries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anti-discrimination_acts

Most of them force the private and public sector to apply equal opportunity standards when they hire someone. For example, you would get sued badly if you were found to discriminate your employment practices based on ethnicity in the US. You could get even shut down if it was prevalent...

In football, to my knowledge, such laws don't exist
In fact, it's just the opposite, clubs and leagues encourage 'homegrown' players

In any case, it would be difficult to prove that Bilbao isn't simply selecting the best candidate for the job, and obviously you couldn't force a club to sign players to meet some sort of 'race quota'

The private business analogy was ill informed, my mistake. It doesn't fit with football in the way I meant it, I just mean that the club governs itself, and makes signings that they see fit.

It can still be considered discrimination because it is 'Basque only'- that is if you concede that racism amounts to differential treatment based on characteristics such as ethnicity, geography etc. I think we would all say that it certainly fits this definition, as Basque players will always be considered over another player in the scheme of things, traditionally.

The question is, what should or ought to be done about it?
I think the answer is nothing. Bilbao has the right to build a team as they see fit. If they wanted to sign a squad with an average age of 55, that would be okay.

You can look at other clubs that have policies to only sign players under 26 (like mole has suggested about Newcastle). Well, this is also discrimination. It lessens the opportunities for players over the age of 26 to get a transfer to that club, but no one would really consider that racism.

rwo power wrote:

Arquitecto wrote:

rwo power wrote:As I studied linguistics, I'm aware of the fascinating properties of the Basque language vs the surrounding IndoEuropean languages

Please forgive me making a bit fun of the Bavarians - as I belong to the evil Prussians (according to them - a Bavarian friend of mine loves to call me "a Saupreißn", albeit in jest) I should be allowed to

I'm glad you are adept in the knowledge of these languages as it brings me pride for someone outside the region to be well learned on its roots.

Speaking of Bavarians theres a reason why they are called "The Texas of Germany" Or the "Hicks of Germany". In essence Basque Country is the Bavaria of Espana in many many ways.

In essence, Bavarians are infamous for their snobbery as I can take a guess that you and Viva both aren't to fond of them.

As a matter of fact, I'm glad that the Basque people are so strongly working on preserving their language. There are too many languages that have died out by now and a unique language like Basque would be a great loss.

As for not being so fond of Bavarians - as a matter of fact, I know quite some and get along well with them. But that doesn't mean I can't make fun of them (and vice versa).

But we digress again... Back to topic!

What I'd love to know - is Basque the working language at Athletic Bilbao? If yes that would be an elegant way to discourage foreign players right away as there are not too many people outside the region that speak it...

Euskera is in fact widely spoken within the ranks of the club. Within the players, the staff etc. Obviously Spanish is not discouraged, yet Euskera is embraced widely not only within the region but within all Basque clubs as a whole. Very similar to the Valencian movement in Valencia except Basque's have far more choice in their law and policy.

McLewis wrote:I want to see if I understand this correctly. Let's take a young French boy from Provence, age 4 let's say. His parents decide to move to the Basque region of Spain and by the age of 12, The kid begins to show serious talent in football.

Considering their policy on local talent, would Bilbao pick this boy up and foster him through their ranks since his family now has ties to the Basque region dating back 8 years? Would he be considered "Basque" enough to join them? If what I understood from the previous pages, the answer should be yes.

Its more complicated then that as Athletic have their own bred methods of acknowledging how much the parents are in lineage with their Basque roots along with how well they identify with it. As well as being granted permission for educating their child in the Basque roots and culture.

So the answer is yes.

Racism includes differentiating based on ethnicity and Basque is definitely considered and ehtnic group. This is a highly discriminatory policy... i don't think anyone can argue with that.

I'm interested in discussing the morality of such a practice and the example it sets.

My issue with it is that Bilbao plays in La Liga and participates in UEFA competitions. Those governing bodies are basically saying that it's ok to have ethnically discriminatory practices. In essence, any club in Spain could decide to make similar policies and they would have precedent to do so.

I think it sets an awful example. It's saying that it's ok to be an ultra nationalist.

This is a brilliant thread and some top quality discussion. Kudos Sports for bringing it up!

Adit wrote:That is my question as well,can a andalucian kid get into Athletic academy if he was born and raised in Basque country but does not have basque ancestry ?

In theory no. Yet the policy isn't that strict. Exceptions have and can be made so as long as he is educated in Basque culture, history and the language and most importantly the ways of Basque football.

Zealous wrote:

Arquitecto wrote:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

Zealous wrote:You guys are getting into a different discussion and are sort of missing the point. Racist or not Bilbao's policy is a form of discrimination (I think we can all agree on that) which is what op wants to discuss.

It's discrimination against home-grown players or players who have a tie to the club's origins. But it's not discrimination against any ethnic group or nationality. It doesn't matter if the person is muslim, black, jewish or native american - so long as he came through their youth. They see themselves as an extension of the Basque country, in their eyes they're probably more of a national team than a club.

@Zeal, the OP asked if it is Racist to be more specific where it has been proven it is not.

And said Alfred. There is no discrimination on religion or political stance as the only condition is almost like acquiring an Italian passport. As long as you are educated in your roots/heritage, identify well with your Basque roots (have to be direct) along with allegiance to the Basque nationality crest.

In many ways its a very welcoming system

Racist is the wrong word I agree. Let's just say for sake of argument that the word used is discrimination.

In Espana as a whole discrimination does not exist as each region simply understands the importance of preserving (or progressing) their own culture and identity. So being politically correct is nowhere near as important as it is in say, the USA.

McLewis wrote:I want to see if I understand this correctly. Let's take a young French boy from Provence, age 4 let's say. His parents decide to move to the Basque region of Spain and by the age of 12, The kid begins to show serious talent in football.

Considering their policy on local talent, would Bilbao pick this boy up and foster him through their ranks since his family now has ties to the Basque region dating back 8 years? Would he be considered "Basque" enough to join them? If what I understood from the previous pages, the answer should be yes.

You need to identify yourself as Basque and not French. You also need to prove that the child is educated in the Basque culture predominantly. Basically, they want you to be a nationalist. You can't identify yourself as both French and Basque. You must be all Basque.

Edit: You also need to ask for an exception if you don't have Basque ancestry.

sportsczy wrote:

McLewis wrote:I want to see if I understand this correctly. Let's take a young French boy from Provence, age 4 let's say. His parents decide to move to the Basque region of Spain and by the age of 12, The kid begins to show serious talent in football.

Considering their policy on local talent, would Bilbao pick this boy up and foster him through their ranks since his family now has ties to the Basque region dating back 8 years? Would he be considered "Basque" enough to join them? If what I understood from the previous pages, the answer should be yes.

You need to identify yourself as Basque and not French. You also need to prove that the child is educated in the Basque culture predominantly. Basically, they want you to be a nationalist. You can't identify yourself as both French and Basque. You must be all Basque.

Edit: You also need to ask for an exception if you don't have Basque ancestry.

No this is far from the truth as I don't know where this has come from. You can identify with any religion, political stance and culture as long as you identify well enough to Athletic Club's standards of Basque identification.