Estigarribia

Well i honestly have hardly been impressed with him.He has been overshadowed by De Ceglie pretty much entire season.

And if we are buying him it would be a depth option for WB position mainly also has he showed he isnt exactly cut it for the 4-3-3 either.So i'd rather use that 5m and add additional money to buy an explosive wing-back like Armero.

On the other hand i've been impressed with Gaiccherini whenever he has started and as a sub as well plus he can play as a CM,SS and ofcourse outwide so i'd definitely considering buying him over Esti first .

I'd keep him only if he were to actually play.
I think he could be a great player, there are so many aspects of his ability that I appreciate.

Work rate and mentality, technique. He seems like the ideal winger for a 3-5-2, 4-3-3 is another story.

Juventude wrote:

DeviAngel wrote:

Juventude wrote:I could see Juve keeping him and my argument for keeping him would be that he is a solid option that can fill multiple positions and he already knows Conte's tactics. He would be useful for depth purposes in a campaign when Juve is playing in multiple competitions. However, fans should not expect him to develop into a great player because he should already be an impressive player at his age.

Camoranesi ?

Don't throw out that argument. For every Camoranesi that develops late in his career there are hundreds (maybe thousands) of players that were average in their mid 20s and stayed average or got worse in to their late 20s or early 30s.

If you're going to use Camoranesi, then I'm going to use Kapo for my example.

I can safely say that Esti will never be even close to Camo's level.

camo never had the role that Esti had he was saved for the attack to. You could have used Domenico Morfeo

Look at Barz, he was well over 25 and is arguably one of the most important players in our team....

Esti at worst is a very good depth player that cost 5 mil.

The_ItalianFool wrote:Padoin is infinitely better and more useful than Borriello. Padoin was bought to use when our first team players got injured or needed rest. Neither of those happened, so Padoin hasnt played. Do you know what a squad player is? Conte is doing the right thing with him.

Back to Esti, I think he shows tons of potential and can be extremely useful to the team. Definitely keep him, no doubt. At worst a bench player and a sub for the Left Side... but he has the potential to be much more.

Infinitely better? Please - theres a reason he was at a Serie B team when he is 27. Hes average at best and totally a waste of good money. Considering we bought Vidal for 10. Pirlo for free. Barzagli for 0.5. Lich for 10.... Padoin is worth NOWHERE near 5m. and NO way deserves a 5 year contract until he is 33!?

Need temporarty first team reinforcements? Buy a promising youngster/good player, or promote one of the current youth/younger players (i.e Marrone) or LOAN an average player to fill the gaps (i.e. Boriello - also a waste of time). DONT WASTE 5m and a 5 year Contract on a 28year old player who was only good enough for Serie B last season! What a rubbish reason.

Youre absolutely right that Conte is doing the right thing with him - by NOT using him. Ive got nothing personally against Padoin - he seems like a nice enough guy. Hes just not Juve material. End of story.

As for Esti - Hes a good player and probably will never be a great player. Hes DEF worth more than Padoin so on that basis alone deserves to stay. But for smart use of funds, I dont see him being the way to go for us long term on the left flank but if a good LB/LW doesnt happen, he defintely needs to stay and start upping his game to the next level.

And there are players who are late bloomers I agree.
Time will tell whether Esti is one of them.
My guy feeling at the moment says no - but hey, hope he proves me wrong.

JUVENTUS need to build a team that dominates the opponents;

we can build a physically great team and I would be OK with that

my favorite player on physical term was ZAMBROTA; he was not something really talented but he dominated the wing because he was a physical great player with speed, strength, stamina

or we can build a team with talented players and I have nothing against it

you have a great example CANNAVARO who wasn't physically great player but his talent to win the ball made him a GOLDEN BALL winner

I have nothing against bringing someone talented with the ball who can dominate the wing with his dribbling skills

but talking about DE CEGLE and ESTIGARRIBIA those two players are only good to throw long balls when no one is marking they are not good on nothing else

Lynx100 wrote:

The_ItalianFool wrote:Padoin is infinitely better and more useful than Borriello. Padoin was bought to use when our first team players got injured or needed rest. Neither of those happened, so Padoin hasnt played. Do you know what a squad player is? Conte is doing the right thing with him.

Back to Esti, I think he shows tons of potential and can be extremely useful to the team. Definitely keep him, no doubt. At worst a bench player and a sub for the Left Side... but he has the potential to be much more.

Infinitely better? Please - theres a reason he was at a Serie B team when he is 27. Hes average at best and totally a waste of good money. Considering we bought Vidal for 10. Pirlo for free. Barzagli for 0.5. Lich for 10.... Padoin is worth NOWHERE near 5m. and NO way deserves a 5 year contract until he is 33!?

Need temporarty first team reinforcements? Buy a promising youngster/good player, or promote one of the current youth/younger players (i.e Marrone) or LOAN an average player to fill the gaps (i.e. Boriello - also a waste of time). DONT WASTE 5m and a 5 year Contract on a 28year old player who was only good enough for Serie B last season! What a rubbish reason.

Youre absolutely right that Conte is doing the right thing with him - by NOT using him. Ive got nothing personally against Padoin - he seems like a nice enough guy. Hes just not Juve material. End of story.

As for Esti - Hes a good player and probably will never be a great player. Hes DEF worth more than Padoin so on that basis alone deserves to stay. But for smart use of funds, I dont see him being the way to go for us long term on the left flank but if a good LB/LW doesnt happen, he defintely needs to stay and start upping his game to the next level.

There arent many good LBs available, that should be taken into consideration.

And ADP, Trez, Buffon, Nedved, and Camo were all in Serie B when they were older than 27, no? Flawed argument. If im not mistaken, Padoin won Serie B with Atalanta, so shouldnt that alone prove he should be in Serie A? Blind hatred. He can also play LB, a spot that has been weak in our recent history.

He has tons of uses, even if he doesnt get playing time. It's the security of having a professional who is ok with being on the bench and only used to fill in gaps in the team.

Same goes for Esti, if he isnt starting, he is good enough to be a squad player.

The_ItalianFool wrote:Look at Barz, he was well over 25 and is arguably one of the most important players in our team....

Esti at worst is a very good depth player that cost 5 mil.

Barzagli was REALLY good in Palermo before he went to Wolfsburg..... Take Kjaer(now in Roma) same story. Amazing in Palermo (aged 22), sign with Wolfsburg and turned out not to find his feet. Now he's in Roma but the reason Roma bought him was not because of his Wolfsburg time but his Palermo time.. If you don't show glimpse of your talent BEFORE you turn 25 then you are LIKELY not to have one. Football at this level takes a lot of things and even if you're an amazing talent like ELIA you can't tell for sure that you'll become better at a later age..
Point is; Esti is now 24. He has failed in Monaco and the only reason he's accepted in Juve is because he's hard-working. We don't need hard-workers, we need class and im pretty confident he aint got it since he hasn't shown any of that just yet. 1 goal and 1 assist so far in 18 appearances. NOT good enough. Sorry

Kjaer still has the talent I'm sure but I think the tactics feel him down :/

LWL91 wrote:

The_ItalianFool wrote:Look at Barz, he was well over 25 and is arguably one of the most important players in our team....

Esti at worst is a very good depth player that cost 5 mil.

Barzagli was REALLY good in Palermo before he went to Wolfsburg..... Take Kjaer(now in Roma) same story. Amazing in Palermo (aged 22), sign with Wolfsburg and turned out not to find his feet. Now he's in Roma but the reason Roma bought him was not because of his Wolfsburg time but his Palermo time.. If you don't show glimpse of your talent BEFORE you turn 25 then you are LIKELY not to have one. Football at this level takes a lot of things and even if you're an amazing talent like ELIA you can't tell for sure that you'll become better at a later age..
Point is; Esti is now 24. He has failed in Monaco and the only reason he's accepted in Juve is because he's hard-working. We don't need hard-workers, we need class and im pretty confident he aint got it since he hasn't shown any of that just yet. 1 goal and 1 assist so far in 18 appearances. NOT good enough. Sorry

1 goal and 1 assist when he was primarily deployed at LB or LWB...

and yes, every team needs hardworkers. Even Barcelona and RM arent star studded where they have the best in the world for each position. Do you remember Juve in the 90s and early 00s, we had stars, yes, but we also had players who work hard and bleed for the shirt.

A mix of both are needed.

So are you saying you see no talent in Esti, who is only 24? I see a lot of potential and use.

This debate just keeps going. It's a sign that the season is going well if all we have to argue about are keeping bench players.

I think we can all agree that he was pretty average this season, but some of us think he could develop and others think he will be pretty average for most of his career. I would just be cautious if people think that we should sign him because he has great potential. Marotta should only buy him if he will be useful on next season's team as substitute or for depth. He isn't a first 11 player.

People need to stop giving examples of players that developed after 25 because there are a lot of players that never got better after 25 and it's insulting to even compare Esti to a world cup winner like Camoranesi.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that Esti will always be just a depth player that will be primarily used as a substitute or play when there are injuries. I don't have a lot of confidence in him ever becoming a regular starter for Juve. Therefore, I would rather develop younger players that are already in our system or someone that could be signed for a low price. That makes more sense to me rather than developing an average 24 or 25 year old player and hoping they become great.

Maybe he is late bloomer aka Di Natale

I dont think anyone is relying on that they hope he becomes great, only that he can be used as substitute and squad player... and 5 million euros is pretty cheap.

We already have him, the coach obviously likes him, he has learned our system, (most) fans like him... I just dont see the fuss over signing a good squad player for 5 million euros.

Like I said, I think that there are younger players that could be signed or that may exist in our youth system that could be utilized and give similar results and have more room for development and improvement. I'd rather have Esti's spot in the roster go to such players.

To me, this is what loans are for. Either the player works out or he doesn't and, to some of us, he just didn't impress enough to keep.

In the end, I think that Marotta will likely keep him because Juve has not done a good job in signing wingers in the last few years.

And Dejan's got a good point, Camo wasnt Juve material before the age of 25 or so, but look at him from 2002 onward...

But again, I dont expect Esti to be our next Nedved or anything that big, but he can definitely be useful- especially when we are competing in 3 tournaments.

Juventude wrote:Like I said, I think that there are younger players that could be signed or that may exist in our youth system that could be utilized and give similar results and have more room for development and improvement. I'd rather have Esti's spot in the roster go to such players.

To me, this is what loans are for. Either the player works out or he doesn't and, to some of us, he just didn't impress enough to keep.

In the end, I think that Marotta will likely keep him because Juve has not done a good job in signing wingers in the last few years.

hmm depends on the formation about younger players I wold give a shor to De Silvestro that boy amazes me

Juventude wrote:Like I said, I think that there are younger players that could be signed or that may exist in our youth system that could be utilized and give similar results and have more room for development and improvement. I'd rather have Esti's spot in the roster go to such players.

To me, this is what loans are for. Either the player works out or he doesn't and, to some of us, he just didn't impress enough to keep.

In the end, I think that Marotta will likely keep him because Juve has not done a good job in signing wingers in the last few years.

I dunno there arent many amazing fullbacks coming through our youth system that I am aware of. More attacking players have been talked about, but in terms of a LB, LWB... not so much as far as I know. Any suggestions?

If people want him to primarly be used as a LB or LWB, I think that's a problem if he is to become PDC's substitute. PDC has made progress this season, but he still has a long way to go to be a top LB in Seria A. Plus, if PDC were to get injured, I do not have confidence in Esti as the next in line. I agree that we don't have a lot in our system at LB or LWB, which is why I would prefer that we purchase a younger player and still sign a solid veteran LB.

As for LW players, I agree with Devi about De Silvestro. I would also like to see Pasquato play a bit more at that position. He was used during the summer tour at that position and I'd like to how he has developed at Torino.

Juventude wrote:If people want him to primarly be used as a LB or LWB, I think that's a problem if he is to become PDC's substitute. PDC has made progress this season, but he still has a long way to go to be a top LB in Seria A. Plus, if PDC were to get injured, I do not have confidence in Esti as the next in line. I agree that we don't have a lot in our system at LB or LWB, which is why I would prefer that we purchase a younger player and still sign a solid veteran LB.

As for LW players, I agree with Devi about De Silvestro. I would also like to see Pasquato play a bit more at that position. He was used during the summer tour at that position and I'd like to how he has developed at Torino.

Pasquato and De Silverstro have both shown good potential, I agree. But i doubt either are ready to become first team players.

And I also have my doubts over PDC only because he is so injury proned in the past. I think having 2 LBs (PDC + a new one) AND Esti is also fine... Esti can play in more than 1 position so he can be more of a utility player used to rest others instead of only as a backup.

But then we also should consider Chiellini and Pepe(maybe even Vidal) can play LB as well, so should we really spend money on LB when we need to spend money on our attacking department?

It's a tough situation, but I think PDC, Esti and Chiellini are enough for LB, especially if we still have Bonucci and Barz able to cover the middle IF Chiellini ever needs to go back to LB.

I think we should spend money on LB regardless of Esti. I think we need to spend money on four areas in order of priority:

1. Top/world class/rising star CF
2. A true SS (either starting quality if ADP leaves and/or Quags is sold or a solid backup to substitute with Vucinic)
3. Young backup for Pirlo (preferably Veratti)
4. LB (whether a starting LB or solid veteran backup to PDC)

Juventude wrote:I think we should spend money on LB regardless of Esti. I think we need to spend money on four areas in order of priority:

1. Top/world class/rising star CF
2. A true SS (either starting quality if ADP leaves and/or Quags is sold or a solid backup to substitute with Vucinic)
3. Young backup for Pirlo (preferably Veratti)
4. LB (whether a starting LB or solid veteran backup to PDC)

again it depends on our formation 4-3-3 needs more players 3-5-2 doesn't but knowing conte he will want 2 versions

I think that we need 1-3 of my priority list no matter what. The last one just depends on Juve needing a true LB or LWB depending on the formation. Like you said, Conte will probably want a flexible formation so he will probably need all types of players.

Juventude wrote:I think that we need 1-3 of my priority list no matter what. The last one just depends on Juve needing a true LB or LWB depending on the formation. Like you said, Conte will probably want a flexible formation so he will probably need all types of players.

Or AKA versatile players (Esti + Padoin)

AKA not Esti for me.

The_ItalianFool wrote:
There arent many good LBs available, that should be taken into consideration.

And ADP, Trez, Buffon, Nedved, and Camo were all in Serie B when they were older than 27, no? Flawed argument. If im not mistaken, Padoin won Serie B with Atalanta, so shouldnt that alone prove he should be in Serie A? Blind hatred. He can also play LB, a spot that has been weak in our recent history.

He has tons of uses, even if he doesnt get playing time. It's the security of having a professional who is ok with being on the bench and only used to fill in gaps in the team.

Same goes for Esti, if he isnt starting, he is good enough to be a squad player.

Ofcourse the lack of good LBs has been taken into consideration. If you read carefully, you will notice I wrote, that if a quality LB cant be signed, we should stick with Esti.

Your comparing Padoin with Buffon, ADP, Nedved etc??? These are proven Serie A winners, world class players, world cup winners, Golden ball winners... and youre comparing them to Padoin??? When these world champions were wrongly demoted to Serie B, for NO fault of theirs and then showed heart-warming character to win back promotion without so muc as lifting a finger in Serie B.....and you compared then to Padoin? AND THEN you go on say that MY argument is FLAWED?! :lol!:
Wow...just wow... i hope for your sake you were drunk or high when you wrote that.

you want security bench players?? Ever heard of Marrone? hes a MUCH better talent than Padoin and deserves to be on the bench atleast. Even Buoy, Appelt probably deserve more bench time than Padoin and would be happy to play for Primavera, while warming the bench and playing 15-20 minutes when needed for the CM position which iswhere Padoin has been predominantly used. And how many times has Padoin meaningfully been used as a LWB? I can think of maybe one game...

You know how much critical I have been of Bonucci but he has started to really improve and I commend him for that. I would be very comfortable now, to use Bonucci as a CB and Chiellini as a LB (over Padoin) in an emergency situation if need be. Hell, Id even use Caceras as LB over Padoin.

Padoin = no use for Juventus. Average player belongs in an average team. I wish he is sold and enjoys the rest of his career in a team where he is a central figure and is regularly in the starting XI.