Messi having better goal scoring season than Müller or Pele ever had.

Lord Hispano wrote:

billionmillion wrote:

Lord Hispano wrote:

Albiceleste wrote:Messi scored 2 today and neither were on the pitch

Messi's Argentina stats counters the above claim.

if you said without barcelona you would sound less stupid. he always scores without xavi or iniesta and did a hat-trick without them this season

Against mediocrity maybe. Imagine Barca without Xavi and Iniesta. Imagine Messi being the creator like he usually is for Argentina.

Please reconsider your judgement of my claim as it is pretty accurate.

We saw that already. without messi spain with xavi and iniesta could score only 1 goal 7 matches in a row. without xavi and iniesta messi's argentina scored 3-4 goals every game.

Instead of imagining just watch today's match. this barca team is not about xavi or iniesta. they are part of machine. and second xavi and iniesta are 2 men. you compare xavi+iniesta vs messi. this is only way that cr fanboys can bash messi. and you compare messi with them at midfield abilities. or what you call it - creator? why to put messi at midfield instead of 2 great midfielders?

About creating goals for messi, it mostly comes from Alves not Xavi or Iniesta. Even against big teams messi's goals mostly didnt come from xavi or iniesta. Last season CL final - his goal nothing to do with xavi and iniesta. CL semi-final his 2 goals vs Madrid has nothing to do with Xavi and Iniesta. His 4 goals vs Arsenal has nothing to with xavi iniesta. so what big games you talk about?

We saw that already. without messi spain with xavi and iniesta could score only 1 goal 7 matches in a row. without xavi and iniesta messi's argentina scored 3-4 goals every game.

Instead of imagining just watch today's match. this barca team is not about xavi or iniesta. they are part of machine. and second xavi and iniesta are 2 men. you compare xavi+iniesta vs messi. this is only way that cr fanboys can bash messi. and you compare messi with them at midfield abilities. or what you call it - creator? why to put messi at midfield instead of 2 great midfielders?

About creating goals for messi, it mostly comes from Alves not Xavi or Iniesta. Even against big teams messi's goals mostly didnt come from xavi or iniesta. Last season CL final - his goal nothing to do with xavi and iniesta. CL semi-final his 2 goals vs Madrid has nothing to do with Xavi and Iniesta. His 4 goals vs Arsenal has nothing to with xavi iniesta. so what big games you talk about?

Who are the players who even let Barca hold on to the as long to begin with? Alves usually recieves a pass from Xavi or Alexis on the overlap then he Crosses to Messi or whoever else is in there (Fab usually). Xavi and Iniesta (It was Villa) ended up scoring 7 goals because Spain never faced Mediocre or unorganized teams bar Honduras. The rest were solid Deffensively.

Noone's imagining here. It's all been done and proven.

Lord Hispano wrote:

Against mediocrity maybe. Imagine Barca without Xavi and Iniesta. Imagine Messi being the creator like he usually is for Argentina.

Please reconsider your judgement of my claim as it is pretty accurate.

How is it accurate if Messi is a major contributor in Barcelona's goals? He has ripped Madrid a new one on his own on several occasions including against the current Madrid team (which is the best in the world according to you.)

He is a major contributor in all of Barcelona's goals in the big matches and obviously when you have team-mates such as Xavi, Iniesta, Alves etc, your stats will explode.

As i said, your claim is based on Argentina stats where he has had the misfortune of being managed by incompetent coaches who cannot even get player selection right.

Anyway, you think CR7 is better than Messi, so not much point trying to get through to you. Even then, the claim you proclaimed to accurate is not so accurate.

Lord Hispano wrote:
Who are the players who even let Barca hold on to the as long to begin with? Alves usually recieves a pass from Xavi or Alexis on the overlap then he Crosses to Messi or whoever else is in there (Fab usually). Xavi and Iniesta (It was Villa) ended up scoring 7 goals because Spain never faced Mediocre or unorganized teams bar Honduras. The rest were solid Deffensively.

Noone's imagining here. It's all been done and proven.

So painfully obvious you dont watch Barcelona much and have a superficial understanding of their game.

kiranr wrote:

How is it accurate if Messi is a major contributor in Barcelona's goals? He has ripped Madrid a new one on his own on several occasions including against the current Madrid team (which is the best in the world according to you.)

He is a major contributor in all of Barcelona's goals in the big matches and obviously when you have team-mates such as Xavi, Iniesta, Alves etc, your stats will explode.

As i said, your claim is based on Argentina stats where he has had the misfortune of being managed by incompetent coaches who cannot even get player selection right.

Anyway, you think CR7 is better than Messi, so not much point trying to get through to you. Even then, the claim you proclaimed to accurate is not so accurate.

The manager scapegoat excuse again? You might have a case in the 2010 WC but not in the Copa America where his stats are also lacklusteing.

Madrid have their own problems in Defense but will soon demonstrate (and they curruntly are in the league) that they are the better team between the two.

Lord Hispano wrote:

We saw that already. without messi spain with xavi and iniesta could score only 1 goal 7 matches in a row. without xavi and iniesta messi's argentina scored 3-4 goals every game.

Instead of imagining just watch today's match. this barca team is not about xavi or iniesta. they are part of machine. and second xavi and iniesta are 2 men. you compare xavi+iniesta vs messi. this is only way that cr fanboys can bash messi. and you compare messi with them at midfield abilities. or what you call it - creator? why to put messi at midfield instead of 2 great midfielders?

About creating goals for messi, it mostly comes from Alves not Xavi or Iniesta. Even against big teams messi's goals mostly didnt come from xavi or iniesta. Last season CL final - his goal nothing to do with xavi and iniesta. CL semi-final his 2 goals vs Madrid has nothing to do with Xavi and Iniesta. His 4 goals vs Arsenal has nothing to with xavi iniesta. so what big games you talk about?

Who are the players who even let Barca hold on to the as long to begin with? Alves usually recieves a pass from Xavi or Alexis on the overlap then he Crosses to Messi or whoever else is in there (Fab usually). Xavi and Iniesta (It was Villa) ended up scoring 7 goals because Spain never faced Mediocre or unorganized teams bar Honduras. The rest were solid Deffensively.

Noone's imagining here. It's all been done and proven.

You go to school boy, dont waste my time

kiranr wrote:

Lord Hispano wrote:
Who are the players who even let Barca hold on to the as long to begin with? Alves usually recieves a pass from Xavi or Alexis on the overlap then he Crosses to Messi or whoever else is in there (Fab usually). Xavi and Iniesta (It was Villa) ended up scoring 7 goals because Spain never faced Mediocre or unorganized teams bar Honduras. The rest were solid Deffensively.

Noone's imagining here. It's all been done and proven.

So painfully obvious you dont watch Barcelona much and have a superficial understanding of their game.

You haven't made a point to what actually happens. All Billion Million proved was that Alves is yet another offensive contributer.

But you've only blamed Argentina's coaches. Should I say you don't watch Argentina much?

billionmillion wrote:You go to school boy, dont waste my time

You wasted it yourself.

Lord Hispano wrote:
The manager scapegoat excuse again? You might have a case in the 2010 WC but not in the Copa America where his stats are also lacklusteing.

Madrid have their own problems in Defense but will soon demonstrate (and they curruntly are in the league) that they are the better team between the two.

Doesn't matter about his stats and i dont usually harp on his stats btw. His performances are usually great. The end product is not there, but it will come with the right mix of players which is still eluding them. And yes, the manager who cannot come remotely close to selecting the best players to form a team is not a competent manager.

You have been saying that about Madrid from the beginning of the season.

We have got a few matches coming through. Probably the CL final and the clasico. Let us see what happens then.

Lord Hispano wrote:

kiranr wrote:

Lord Hispano wrote:
Who are the players who even let Barca hold on to the as long to begin with? Alves usually recieves a pass from Xavi or Alexis on the overlap then he Crosses to Messi or whoever else is in there (Fab usually). Xavi and Iniesta (It was Villa) ended up scoring 7 goals because Spain never faced Mediocre or unorganized teams bar Honduras. The rest were solid Deffensively.

Noone's imagining here. It's all been done and proven.

So painfully obvious you dont watch Barcelona much and have a superficial understanding of their game.

You haven't made a point to what actually happens. All Billion Million proved was that Alves is yet another offensive contributer.

But you've only blamed Argentina's coaches. Should I say you don't watch Argentina much?

You forgot that Messi is often in the midfield and spraying it to Alves ro Abidal. You also forgot that he sometimes drifts to the wings and cuts in from there playing 1-2s with Iniesta, Alves, Xavi, Pedro etc. You also forgot that when he comes in deep in between the lines, he feeds the ball to Villa, or Sanchez or Pedro etc. A lot about his game you dont notice or choose to ignore to confirm your bias about him.

kiranr wrote:

Lord Hispano wrote:
The manager scapegoat excuse again? You might have a case in the 2010 WC but not in the Copa America where his stats are also lacklusteing.

Madrid have their own problems in Defense but will soon demonstrate (and they curruntly are in the league) that they are the better team between the two.

Doesn't matter about his stats and i dont usually harp on his stats btw. His performances are usually great. The end product is not there, but it will come with the right mix of players which is still eluding them. And yes, the manager who cannot come remotely close to selecting the best players to form a team is not a competent manager.

You have been saying that about Madrid from the beginning of the season.

We have got a few matches coming through. Probably the CL final and the clasico. Let us see what happens then.

Yes, I've been saying since Mou came actually.

I mix stats and performance but I tend to lean more towards effectiveness. It would be incomplete of me if I don't incude stats and performance to rate a player.

Batista was a joke of a manager, no tactics whatsoever. He was a awful. Messi was also good statistically for Argentina in the Copa America, he was the top assister of the tournament.

kiranr wrote:

You forgot that Messi is often in the midfield and spraying it to Alves ro Abidal. You also forgot that he sometimes drifts to the wings and cuts in from there playing 1-2s with Iniesta, Alves, Xavi, Pedro etc. You also forgot that when he comes in deep in between the lines, he feeds the ball to Villa, or Sanchez or Pedro etc. A lot about his game you dont notice or choose to ignore to confirm your bias about him.

I didn't mention it nor forget. I only explained why Alves has a high percentage of Assist's.

Messi knows Barca system and nor is he the only one that tries all what you mentioned above.

Lord Hispano wrote:

I didn't mention it nor forget. I only explained why Alves has a high percentage of Assist's.

Messi knows Barca system and nor is he the only one that tries all what you mentioned above.

Agreed, but Messi is the one who does it the most. Part of the reasons is obviously the sheer number of games he plays.

But there is another point that you made that i feel is correct. Messi knows the system, which means there is a system. Any player , however talented, needs a system to succeed and i think that has eluded him in the NT. I would say the same about CR as well.

Albiceleste wrote:Batista was a joke of a manager, no tactics whatsoever. He was a awful. Messi was also good statistically for Argentina in the Copa America, he was the top assister of the tournament.

He did have a Tactic if you notice. But it was too Messi dependant and the sqaud was built for recovering of the ball. The DM's Banega and Cambiasso were suppose to aid Messi Who I belive was right below the Forwards and the Fullbacks to overlap to add punch to the Attack. With Messi creating the chances.

That was the plan from what I saw at least.

kiranr wrote:

Agreed, but Messi is the one who does it the most. Part of the reasons is obviously the sheer number of games he plays.

But there is another point that you made that i feel is correct. Messi knows the system, which means there is a system. Any player , however talented, needs a system to succeed and i think that has eluded him in the NT. I would say the same about CR as well.

Ronaldo's a more individual player as we all know. He tends to do well in systems that revolve around him. He's a true Forward in contrast to Messi who's a lot more of an AM. Anyway as, such, Ronnie vies for service. He needs to have the ball given to him. If you cut his supply he's not very dangerous though these days he has developed his game and now tries to regain possesion when his team doesn't have the ball. In the end Ronnies not one you'd like in a system unless you either give him freerole or he's your Striker.

In contrast to Messi's complex game his game is simple. Just as effective though.

Lord Hispano wrote:

Albiceleste wrote:Batista was a joke of a manager, no tactics whatsoever. He was a awful. Messi was also good statistically for Argentina in the Copa America, he was the top assister of the tournament.

He did have a Tactic if you notice. But it was too Messi dependant and the sqaud was built for recovering of the ball. The DM's Banega and Cambiasso were suppose to aid Messi Who I belive was right below the Forwards and the Fullbacks to overlap to add punch to the Attack. With Messi creating the chances.

That was the plan from what I saw at least.

Putting 11 players on the pitch aren't tactics. Our fullbacks didn't have much effect, no one expected them too, Zabaleta and Zanetti aren't really attack minded. We had a midfield of defensive midfielders with Cambiasso Mascherano and Banega not doing anything to help create chances, he completely ignored any other creativity in the team and Lavezzi and Tevez played like they had buckets on their heads

He was so bad we performed WORSE when Uruguay went down to 10 men

He failed to have any other gameplan than the massively flawed one that he refused to change.

Albiceleste wrote:Putting 11 players on the pitch aren't tactics. Our fullbacks didn't have much effect, no one expected them too, Zabaleta and Zanetti aren't really attack minded. We had a midfield of defensive midfielders with Cambiasso Mascherano and Banega not doing anything to help create chances, he completely ignored any other creativity in the team and Lavezzi and Tevez played like they had buckets on their heads

He was so bad we performed WORSE when Uruguay went down to 10 men

I feel you bro. Aguirre sucked at the WC and Fabian killed it for Mex in CA.

Cambiasso, Masch, and Banega were suppose to filter to Messi anything the recovered in the Middle. Zableta and Zanetti your right about them. They aren't Offensively orriented enough to be of much aid. Batista's problem was the wide areas and long balls where cover was nearly impossible and their fragile and slow Defense didn't help. What Messi really needed was someone next to him but Batista was bent on forcing Messi to create everything by himself and ultimately carry the team on his shoulders.

It was just too much responsibilty on him in the end. Batista expected Messi to be a player that he isn't yet.

See, putting the creative responsibilities on Messi is fine, but then you have build your team around him and create space for him to operate. Where are the wide players? What is their role? Who is stretching the defense of the opponents? Where do you want Messi to receive the ball?

None of these questions were dealt with sadly.

kiranr wrote:
See, putting the creative responsibilities on Messi is fine, but then you have build your team around him and create space for him to operate. Where are the wide players? What is their role? Who is stretching the defense of the opponents? Where do you want Messi to receive the ball?

None of these questions were dealt with sadly.

Batista, I believe, intended to recover the ball a little bit above the opponent's half. I beleve the problem was the wide players who were poorly selected. They never really streched opponent's as Fullbacks are mainly used for Defense. Wing Backs should have been selected IMO though I don't know if Argentina had quality players in those positions.

So then what I notice every team did either Longball to the Forwards or fill the mid with players to counter recover the ball from the Argentine midfielders withlist blocking Passing options to Messi. Or play wide where the pressure wasn't as heavy.