Penalty or Not a penalty ?

beatrixasdfghjk. wrote:

The Verminator wrote:Probably no point in me saying this:

With all bias aside, it wasn't a penalty. The ref saw it before the corner was even taken. When the ball is out of play and that happens, the ref just tells them to knock it off and the guy taking the corner waits for the guys to settle down, then the ref blows whistle. It's simple really. And i've seen it happen som many times for us and against us. Never a pen. In fact i've seen goals given to the opp for obstructing our keeper, and that wasn't even given as a foul....btw first goal was a pen. In case some people don't understand, Messi was in an offside position. Xavi passes the ball to somebody who is not in an offside position and antonini intercepts but it goes to Messi. Not offside because for it to be offside, Xavi would've had to been passing to Messi. That means the offside player was part of the game, when he is supposed to be inactive. But because the pass wasn't directed to him, it's perfectly onside.

Now i'm not gonna go into saying stuff like oh Milan coulda won the game, Robinho shouldn't have gotten the handball, i'm just giving my view on the pens. Hope i helped some people

I haven't bothered watching the match, but: Gaining an advantage by being in an offside position
Playing the ball after the ball has rebounded off the goal, the goalkeeper, or any opponent

It doesn't matter whether the ball was intended to go to Messi or not, he was offside.

Key word is rebounded.

The ball didn't rebound on Antonini, he intercepted Xavi pass and gain possession, but his interception was so bad that it went to Messi. No chance of offside at all. A rebound is non intentional.

It is impossible to say whether it was a rebound or a miss-hit.

/end thread

As I am an official refree, I have and always will give penaltys when players hold their opponents no matter if it is in the penality area or not. Its part of Fifa rules and therefore Fifa referees should be giving those decisions. If they don't and they have a clear view of the situation, then really they shouldn't be referring at all.

danyjr wrote:It is impossible to say whether it was a rebound or a miss-hit.

/end thread

Off course it it not a rebound. Antonini runs towards Xavi's pass, there's plenty o time, and misses the control. Not at all a rebound.

free_cat wrote:Off course it it not a rebound. Antonini runs towards Xavi's pass, there's plenty o time, and misses the control. Not at all a rebound.

You're saying this because he was running in the same direction as the ball. But from the moment Antonini first made contact with the ball, the ball wasn't really in his control. He was chasing the ball.

Not saying it was necessarily offside but I'd like to hear more neutral opinions about this because all Barcelona fans say it was onside and all Milan fans claim it was offside. Bias for the win!

A rebound is not intentional. Antonini touched the ball intentionaly.

You don't make sense at all. The "rebound" was the effect of Antonini trying to intercept the ball. Now you tell me, was he in possession of the ball when the ball hit him or was that a rebound off him?

Off coures I make sense. It's not a rebound, it's a misscontrol. A rebound is when someone passes, and the ball "bounces or touches" someone in the way. I mean, the name says it all "rebound". You think that was a rebound from Antonini's feet? He is not an inanimated object, you know.

Miss-control can only happen when you are in possession of the ball. The name says it all "miss-control". For miss-control of the ball to happen, the player needs to be in control of the ball in the first place.

CBarca wrote:There is a stigma here that this happens every game, which seems to be the absolute top reason this shouldn't be a penalty.

That is BS

People are saying every game, hell, every corner, there is some guy with a handful of shirt and ends up taking someone down?

That's absolutely wrong.

You can be right if you say there is some shirt holding/ shoving almost every corner, that's right, but it's hardly anything and that's why it's not called. I can guarantee if Nesta had hardly been holding Busquets then this wouldn't be a penalty, but no, Nesta had a fistful of Busquets and then ended up taking him to the ground.

That's a penalty. How many times does that happen in a game? Not that often, cause defenders aren't that stupid, especially in front of the ref.

As I said (and was ignored)- it's all about flagrance. The more flagrant you make it, the more chance it will be called. While all those other "PK's" people speak of aren't even flagrant and hardly matter at all, this was ridiculously flagrant. A ref, no matter what ref, doesn't just NOT call that.

I get what you're saying with the flagrancy. But lemme tell ya something. I have seen shirt pulling before from even Puyol. Not one to throw someone down, or anything like that, more like a bit of a tug. Buuuuuttt, if we go by the rule, that should also be a penalty should it not? (btw it wasn't this match or anything, just some random match) Yes you're talking about flagrancy i get it. But according to the rule book, as soon as someone holds onto someone else jersey in the box, even for a second, it must be a pen, because that's what the rule says.

What i'm trying to get at is refs don't always go by the rule book because we would see ridiculous penalties like the scenario i just mentioned, so they go by the general conception of what is and isn't worthy of a penalty. So when we say this sort of pen, has always been re-taken as a corner, it's for a reason. It's a soft pen. Do what most refs do and settle the players down, and then take the corner. If he sees it and he blows just after the ball was kicked, re-take it. It's what is commonly done...

That's how i see it...

It was only a week ago that we were discussing a penalty that Madrid was awarded against Villareal because of shirt pulling and that "never happens". I think it was a very harsh penalty, and it probably didn't deserve to be one (stopping the play is the norm), but at the same time it's in the rulebook. I can see how Milan fans would feel hard done, but how is that penalty Barca's fault? Did we dive to get it? No, we didn't. Consequently, I feel like the anger of Milan fans and people hoping to see Barcelona not go through should be directed at the referee and not at our institution.

I don't think the penalty was decisive, and neither do some Milan players (as Seedorf recently stated himself). If Milan were good enough, they would be better than the refs (which, over the 2 legs, gave them a harsh penalty and did not award a pretty clear one against them, in my book that is even). Instead, they only scored once in 180 minutes. Milan didn't go through because they failed to convert their chances. I'm sorry to Milan fans they had to go out that way, I wouldn't like it myself, but had they been the better team they would have gone through.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:It was only a week ago that we were discussing a penalty that Madrid was awarded against Villareal because of shirt pulling and that "never happens". I think it was a very harsh penalty, and it probably didn't deserve to be one (stopping the play is the norm), but at the same time it's in the rulebook. I can see how Milan fans would feel hard done, but how is that penalty Barca's fault? Did we dive to get it? No, we didn't. Consequently, I feel like the anger of Milan fans and people hoping to see Barcelona not go through should be directed at the referee and not at our institution.

I don't think the penalty was decisive, and neither do some Milan players (as Seedorf recently stated himself). If Milan were good enough, they would be better than the refs (which, over the 2 legs, gave them a harsh penalty and did not award a pretty clear one against them, in my book that is even). Instead, they only scored once in 180 minutes. Milan didn't go through because they failed to convert their chances. I'm sorry to Milan fans they had to go out that way, I wouldn't like it myself, but had they been the better team they would have gone through.

1. It's not barce fault.
2. The ones who do think it's because UEFA supports Barce, and tbh you gotta look at it from their view, they've seen Barce get so many calls in the CL's that i don't need to mention (yes i'm aware they have gotten calls against them), so i think you can't realy fault them for thinking there's a conspiracy. Although i don't believe this pen to be part of any conspiracy.

3. The ones that feel hard done look at it this way. No pen 2-1. Robinho not fouled for handball, potentially 2-2. That goal wasn't a given, but it could've been a goal.

Just sayin...

Anyways you guys are through, congrats, but i hope there's no hard feelings as i'm supporting Chelsea

Looking at Robinho's finishing over the past 2 games it would have taken a miracle for that to go in...

Robinho missed his 1 v 1 with Valdes after the handball..then everyone more or less stopped as the whistle blew.

I don't remember too much of it but as i recall, it hit the keeper, and the ball went to someone else who i think took a first touch shot that went into the net. They did stop playing, but that's why i said it could have potentially been a goal. But as i always say, it's over, there's not too much reason to complain about the match the day after it's done. You can complain right after if you felt hard done, because you got alot of emotions in you, but there's no point arguing about it now tbh...

The Verminator wrote:

CBarca wrote:There is a stigma here that this happens every game, which seems to be the absolute top reason this shouldn't be a penalty.

That is BS

People are saying every game, hell, every corner, there is some guy with a handful of shirt and ends up taking someone down?

That's absolutely wrong.

You can be right if you say there is some shirt holding/ shoving almost every corner, that's right, but it's hardly anything and that's why it's not called. I can guarantee if Nesta had hardly been holding Busquets then this wouldn't be a penalty, but no, Nesta had a fistful of Busquets and then ended up taking him to the ground.

That's a penalty. How many times does that happen in a game? Not that often, cause defenders aren't that stupid, especially in front of the ref.

As I said (and was ignored)- it's all about flagrance. The more flagrant you make it, the more chance it will be called. While all those other "PK's" people speak of aren't even flagrant and hardly matter at all, this was ridiculously flagrant. A ref, no matter what ref, doesn't just NOT call that.

I get what you're saying with the flagrancy. But lemme tell ya something. I have seen shirt pulling before from even Puyol. Not one to throw someone down, or anything like that, more like a bit of a tug. Buuuuuttt, if we go by the rule, that should also be a penalty should it not? (btw it wasn't this match or anything, just some random match) Yes you're talking about flagrancy i get it. But according to the rule book, as soon as someone holds onto someone else jersey in the box, even for a second, it must be a pen, because that's what the rule says.

What i'm trying to get at is refs don't always go by the rule book because we would see ridiculous penalties like the scenario i just mentioned, so they go by the general conception of what is and isn't worthy of a penalty. So when we say this sort of pen, has always been re-taken as a corner, it's for a reason. It's a soft pen. Do what most refs do and settle the players down, and then take the corner. If he sees it and he blows just after the ball was kicked, re-take it. It's what is commonly done...

That's how i see it...

Well yeah I see what you mean but you're missing the point.

YES, the rules say that any shirt holding is a penalty, but all refs have the common sense not to call such soft penalties.

What people are saying is, that's exactly what happens ALL THE TIME. There are all these calls that if you go strictly by the book... yes they're penalties, and nobody calls those. Therefore, this one shouldn't be called.

And since those aren't being called, why is this one being called? Shouldn't their be consistency?

But that's wrong.

What happened here is different. People are lumping this into the same category of harmless shirt pulling. But you can SEE that this isn't just the harmless shirt pulling we see week in and week out- Nesta has a fistful of Busquets shirt, and then ends up pretty much, for lack of a better term, tackling Busquets to the ground. Right in front of the ref.

You can't lump that into the same category as all of these harmless shirt pulls and blame the damn consistency. That's the easy way out. And people don't like Barca so that's what they're doing.

What you have to do, and what refs do is, judge it on a case to case basis. And on this case, it's clearly Nesta going absolutely overboard and taking what is usually harmless shirt pulling to the next level.

The question to ask is, how many times does this happen in a game and not get called? 'Soft' is the opposite of what Nesta was doing, and the penalty.

If it's harmless shirt holding and it gets stupidly awarded a penalty, that's soft and that's wrong- and that can be lumped into a category and one can question the refs consistency and the validity of the penalty.

This isn't 'harmless shirt holding' though. That's where people are wrong. That's bias

CBarca wrote:

The Verminator wrote:

CBarca wrote:There is a stigma here that this happens every game, which seems to be the absolute top reason this shouldn't be a penalty.

That is BS

People are saying every game, hell, every corner, there is some guy with a handful of shirt and ends up taking someone down?

That's absolutely wrong.

You can be right if you say there is some shirt holding/ shoving almost every corner, that's right, but it's hardly anything and that's why it's not called. I can guarantee if Nesta had hardly been holding Busquets then this wouldn't be a penalty, but no, Nesta had a fistful of Busquets and then ended up taking him to the ground.

That's a penalty. How many times does that happen in a game? Not that often, cause defenders aren't that stupid, especially in front of the ref.

As I said (and was ignored)- it's all about flagrance. The more flagrant you make it, the more chance it will be called. While all those other "PK's" people speak of aren't even flagrant and hardly matter at all, this was ridiculously flagrant. A ref, no matter what ref, doesn't just NOT call that.

I get what you're saying with the flagrancy. But lemme tell ya something. I have seen shirt pulling before from even Puyol. Not one to throw someone down, or anything like that, more like a bit of a tug. Buuuuuttt, if we go by the rule, that should also be a penalty should it not? (btw it wasn't this match or anything, just some random match) Yes you're talking about flagrancy i get it. But according to the rule book, as soon as someone holds onto someone else jersey in the box, even for a second, it must be a pen, because that's what the rule says.

What i'm trying to get at is refs don't always go by the rule book because we would see ridiculous penalties like the scenario i just mentioned, so they go by the general conception of what is and isn't worthy of a penalty. So when we say this sort of pen, has always been re-taken as a corner, it's for a reason. It's a soft pen. Do what most refs do and settle the players down, and then take the corner. If he sees it and he blows just after the ball was kicked, re-take it. It's what is commonly done...

That's how i see it...

Well yeah I see what you mean but you're missing the point.

YES, the rules say that any shirt holding is a penalty, but all refs have the common sense not to call such soft penalties.

What people are saying is, that's exactly what happens ALL THE TIME. There are all these calls that if you go strictly by the book... yes they're penalties, and nobody calls those. Therefore, this one shouldn't be called.

And since those aren't being called, why is this one being called? Shouldn't their be consistency?

But that's wrong.

What happened here is different. People are lumping this into the same category of harmless shirt pulling. But you can SEE that this isn't just the harmless shirt pulling we see week in and week out- Nesta has a fistful of Busquets shirt, and then ends up pretty much, for lack of a better term, tackling Busquets to the ground. Right in front of the ref.

You can't lump that into the same category as all of these harmless shirt pulls and blame the damn consistency. That's the easy way out. And people don't like Barca so that's what they're doing.

What you have to do, and what refs do is, judge it on a case to case basis. And on this case, it's clearly Nesta going absolutely overboard and taking what is usually harmless shirt pulling to the next level.

The question to ask is, how many times does this happen in a game and not get called? 'Soft' is the opposite of what Nesta was doing, and the penalty.

If it's harmless shirt holding and it gets stupidly awarded a penalty, that's soft and that's wrong- and that can be lumped into a category and one can question the refs consistency and the validity of the penalty.

This isn't 'harmless shirt holding' though. That's where people are wrong. That's bias

I see where you're coming from. but i think you got something wrong here. Because you keep mentioning 'harmless' shirt pulling. Well, that is not exactly what we were referring to (well atleast me). To me, a harmful shirt pull is one where, it prevents you from getting to the ball, or not being able to make enough contact as you originally would have. And i was trying to say that it's this sort of shirt pulling that i have seen countless of times go by, only for the ref to stop the corner, settle everyone down, and proceed with the kick. No penalty.

Tell me, are you claiming that this should have been a penalty mainly because of the fall or do you think even if biscuits stayed up it should've been a penalty? Was just wondering what your thoughts are on this. Would you still have believed it to be a penalty? See, the thing is to me, the ball was out of play when the shirt tugging started, and correct me if i'm wrong, but a penalty can only be awarded if the ball is in play?

EDIT: Just got this from the official Ffia rulebook:

"A penalty kick is awarded against a team that commits one of the ten
offences for which a direct free kick is awarded, inside its own penalty
area and while the ball is in play."

And just so you know a corner is in fact a direct freekick.

I really felt irritated in the beginning, but now i know all this is just pure envy. People envy us and will never see the bad calls going our way and will remember good ones indefinitely. Some might find this cocky, but it is what it feel and i dont give a damn what someone might feel. I think Barilete already mentioned something similar, I think that penalty was 50/50, but if we are to look things through microscope, do not forget a clear penalty we had in Milan (and potential second penalty). I mean the whole psychological card that some Milan fans and players play would be different if we played at Camp Nou with one goal in Milan.

But no one ("neutral") will ever mention this, because we killed so many dreams - FACT not cockiness, and sometimes we killed them so bad that opposition players could not muster more than 2-3 shots on goal. If Barca cannot make more than 2 shots on goal the whole game i would feel so impotent and disgraced. Some people can not cope with such humiliation and will simply look for stupid reason to rationalize their temas impotence.

I tried to explain to people that we get bad calls, but we usually beat the odds and people forget. It does not work. So now i am only going to say this:

You can watch us in the semifinal, meanwhile Milan could do good to push San Siro management to fix that damn pitch and maybe Pato will be the only one injured for the rest of the season.

Why have people have forgotten about this? (Spoiler 6MB GIF, don't try if you're using dial-up lol)

Spoiler:

eelir wrote:I really felt irritated in the beginning, but now i know all this is just pure envy. People envy us and will never see the bad calls going our way and will remember good ones indefinitely. Some might find this cocky, but it is what it feel and i dont give a damn what someone might feel. I think Barilete already mentioned something similar, I think that penalty was 50/50, but if we are to look things through microscope, do not forget a clear penalty we had in Milan (and potential second penalty). I mean the whole psychological card that some Milan fans and players play would be different if we played at Camp Nou with one goal in Milan.

But no one ("neutral") will ever mention this, because we killed so many dreams - FACT not cockiness, and sometimes we killed them so bad that opposition players could not muster more than 2-3 shots on goal. If Barca cannot make more than 2 shots on goal the whole game i would feel so impotent and disgraced. Some people can not cope with such humiliation and will simply look for stupid reason to rationalize their temas impotence.

I tried to explain to people that we get bad calls, but we usually beat the odds and people forget. It does not work. So now i am only going to say this:

You can watch us in the semifinal, meanwhile Milan could do good to push San Siro management to fix that damn pitch and maybe Pato will be the only one injured for the rest of the season.

never ever once got jealous of barcelona because of their success. infact everytime i have been seen them breaking records, messi and xavi and iniesta, i have been lavishing nothing but praise.

so u think that milan just didnt have chance at all that barelona was all in control? yes upto the point when second pk was given then we had to defend. thats part of the game as well, we had good chances to score but psychologically we were done before half time.

majority of people are not jealous or butthurt because they get battered by barcelona. it is because they too have their chances and if referees condidtion the game by depriving them of what they can do, then obviously get pissed off. and this pk is not only the first time for us rossoneri, couple of years ago in 2007 sheva legit goal was disallowed too. and we join the host of clubs who have been deprived of fair play by referee. fans have every right to get pissed off because of this.

this is over anyway so we have moved on. we arent the clubs who have gone on to lodge official complaint to UEFA saying its unfair, it was just a public opinion from everybody.

JespSwe wrote:

eelir wrote:I really felt irritated in the beginning, but now i know all this is just pure envy. People envy us and will never see the bad calls going our way and will remember good ones indefinitely. Some might find this cocky, but it is what it feel and i dont give a damn what someone might feel. I think Barilete already mentioned something similar, I think that penalty was 50/50, but if we are to look things through microscope, do not forget a clear penalty we had in Milan (and potential second penalty). I mean the whole psychological card that some Milan fans and players play would be different if we played at Camp Nou with one goal in Milan.

But no one ("neutral") will ever mention this, because we killed so many dreams - FACT not cockiness, and sometimes we killed them so bad that opposition players could not muster more than 2-3 shots on goal. If Barca cannot make more than 2 shots on goal the whole game i would feel so impotent and disgraced. Some people can not cope with such humiliation and will simply look for stupid reason to rationalize their temas impotence.

I tried to explain to people that we get bad calls, but we usually beat the odds and people forget. It does not work. So now i am only going to say this:

You can watch us in the semifinal, meanwhile Milan could do good to push San Siro management to fix that damn pitch and maybe Pato will be the only one injured for the rest of the season.

never ever once got jealous of barcelona because of their success. infact everytime i have been seen them breaking records, messi and xavi and iniesta, i have been lavishing nothing but praise.

so u think that milan just didnt have chance at all that barelona was all in control? yes upto the point when second pk was given then we had to defend. thats part of the game as well, we had good chances to score but psychologically we were done before half time.

majority of people are not jealous or butthurt because they get battered by barcelona. it is because they too have their chances and if referees condidtion the game by depriving them of what they can do, then obviously get pissed off. and this pk is not only the first time for us rossoneri, couple of years ago in 2007 sheva legit goal was disallowed too. and we join the host of clubs who have been deprived of fair play by referee. fans have every right to get pissed off because of this.

this is over anyway so we have moved on. we arent the clubs who have gone on to lodge official complaint to UEFA saying its unfair, it was just a public opinion from everybody.

Dude did you read hat i said or your just a Swedish Ibra diehard fan? Can you please tell me about the two penalty calls (one of them stone cold penalty) in the forst leg? How would this result effect the psychology of the second leg game? Oh, but this does not count, cuz it is Barca!

Fix your problems with San Siro management, so you have a decent pitch, then we can talk about the ref mistakes, but over two legs, as this was two leg tie. For now, you can follow us in semifinals.

Peace out

eelir wrote:

JespSwe wrote:

eelir wrote:I really felt irritated in the beginning, but now i know all this is just pure envy. People envy us and will never see the bad calls going our way and will remember good ones indefinitely. Some might find this cocky, but it is what it feel and i dont give a damn what someone might feel. I think Barilete already mentioned something similar, I think that penalty was 50/50, but if we are to look things through microscope, do not forget a clear penalty we had in Milan (and potential second penalty). I mean the whole psychological card that some Milan fans and players play would be different if we played at Camp Nou with one goal in Milan.

But no one ("neutral") will ever mention this, because we killed so many dreams - FACT not cockiness, and sometimes we killed them so bad that opposition players could not muster more than 2-3 shots on goal. If Barca cannot make more than 2 shots on goal the whole game i would feel so impotent and disgraced. Some people can not cope with such humiliation and will simply look for stupid reason to rationalize their temas impotence.

I tried to explain to people that we get bad calls, but we usually beat the odds and people forget. It does not work. So now i am only going to say this:

You can watch us in the semifinal, meanwhile Milan could do good to push San Siro management to fix that damn pitch and maybe Pato will be the only one injured for the rest of the season.

never ever once got jealous of barcelona because of their success. infact everytime i have been seen them breaking records, messi and xavi and iniesta, i have been lavishing nothing but praise.

so u think that milan just didnt have chance at all that barelona was all in control? yes upto the point when second pk was given then we had to defend. thats part of the game as well, we had good chances to score but psychologically we were done before half time.

majority of people are not jealous or butthurt because they get battered by barcelona. it is because they too have their chances and if referees condidtion the game by depriving them of what they can do, then obviously get pissed off. and this pk is not only the first time for us rossoneri, couple of years ago in 2007 sheva legit goal was disallowed too. and we join the host of clubs who have been deprived of fair play by referee. fans have every right to get pissed off because of this.

this is over anyway so we have moved on. we arent the clubs who have gone on to lodge official complaint to UEFA saying its unfair, it was just a public opinion from everybody.

Dude did you read hat i said or your just a Swedish Ibra diehard fan? Can you please tell me about the two penalty calls (one of them stone cold penalty) in the forst leg? How would this result effect the psychology of the second leg game? Oh, but this does not count, cuz it is Barca!

Fix your problems with San Siro management, so you have a decent pitch, then we can talk about the ref mistakes, but over two legs, as this was two leg tie. For now, you can follow us in semifinals.

Peace out

i mean in second leg. i dont get it why barca fans are pissed off about, they should be considering themselves lucky.

just saying man, it wasnt to vent my anger.

pitch problem is not our fault but since we rent yeah we should be seeking to fix those problems and galliani said they have already proposed plans.

Well that is thing i am talking about. People remember the most dramatic parts, and as we usually beat the odds there is no much drama. In general, over two legs, i think refs were good and the chances were evened out.

But kudos to Milan, i really was about to shit my pants.

The Verminator wrote:I don't remember too much of it but as i recall, it hit the keeper, and the ball went to someone else who i think took a first touch shot that went into the net. They did stop playing, but that's why i said it could have potentially been a goal. But as i always say, it's over, there's not too much reason to complain about the match the day after it's done. You can complain right after if you felt hard done, because you got alot of emotions in you, but there's no point arguing about it now tbh...

The thing is, IIRC, one of the defender was coming first to the ball or atleast because the ball went sooooo high up one of the defenders would have time to go and press boateng so much that he would not be able to shoot all while Valdes had more than enough time to get back to the goal. So its not even a potential penalty..

JespSwe wrote:
never ever once got jealous of barcelona because of their success. infact everytime i have been seen them breaking records, messi and xavi and iniesta, i have been lavishing nothing but praise.

so u think that milan just didnt have chance at all that barelona was all in control? yes upto the point when second pk was given then we had to defend. thats part of the game as well, we had good chances to score but psychologically we were done before half time.

majority of people are not jealous or butthurt because they get battered by barcelona. it is because they too have their chances and if referees condidtion the game by depriving them of what they can do, then obviously get pissed off. and this pk is not only the first time for us rossoneri, couple of years ago in 2007 sheva legit goal was disallowed too. and we join the host of clubs who have been deprived of fair play by referee. fans have every right to get pissed off because of this.

this is over anyway so we have moved on. we arent the clubs who have gone on to lodge official complaint to UEFA saying its unfair, it was just a public opinion from everybody.

Just a question, so in your opinion us barca fans have the right to feel robbed/angry at the ref because in the first leg we were deprived of fair play by swedish referee? Or arsenal can feel the same about the first leg against Milan because in one of your goals, ibra was offside in the buildup and because he later dived to win the penalty. And if the referee didn't deprived arsenal of fair play then it might have been arsenal who qual to the quarter-final at the cost of milan..