How can Bayern beat Barcelona?

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How can Bayern beat Barcelona? Empty How can Bayern beat Barcelona?

Post by Shotta Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:32 am

I have faith in Bayern beating Barca on a pure competitive level. Barca obviously has the upper hand because they receive support from many institutions while Bayern's board slams UEFA's policies and that can never be good in a Champions League game.

With that said, it all comes down to tactics. I trust Mourinho's tactics of last year by using 3 men in midfield to neutralize their game and playing across the wings. Robbery will be needed for that. As for the midfield, we need 2 DMF's and 1 CMF. A combination of Gustavo, Tymoshchuck and Schweinsteiger is ideal but a new King called Kroos has arrived and he has to play in matches like this. So a combination of Kroos, Schweinsteiger and Tymo/Gustavo in midfield with Schweini and Tymo playing defensively and Kroos being the most offensive one.

The back 4 will have to be as follows:

Lahm - Badstuber - Van Buyten - Boateng.

BOA will have to play RB because Rafinha and Robben are too offensive. Should Mueller (who is more defensive than Robben) play, the defensive 4 should be

Lahm - BOA - Buyten - Rafinha

In the end, it will look like this:

----------------Neuer
Boateng/Rafa - Buyten - Badstuber/BOA - Lahm
-----Tymo/Gustavo - Kroos - Schweinsteiger
Robben/Mueller----------------Ribery
----------------Gomez

DISCUSS
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Post by rwo power Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:40 am

Well, I have high hopes. The back four Lahm - Badstuber - VanBuyten - Boateng plus Schweinsteiger as C/DM was responsible for the clean sheet record at the beginning of the season and with Schweinsteiger back, there is no reason why the defense shouldn't excel again.

The match is somewhat like Germany (plus Robbery) vs Spain (plus Messi), and we have seen that Germany slowly edges closer in that respect, too.

In the case Müller plays, it should be Lahm - Badstuber - Boa - Rafinha, btw, as I think that Badstuber's passing might be more important than Van Buyten's offensive qualities. The latter would be high risk as then we'd have two defenders too far in the attack and then the Bayern defense could easily be overrun by Barca. I would only get Van Buyten in in the last minutes if a desperate goal is needed.
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Post by Sushi Master Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:27 pm

Simple: Barcelona are vulnerable to wing play, and we have the best wingers by far. I agree with that defensive setup, although I'm having nightmares imagining what Messi would do to van Buyten Very Happy Maybe playing Boateng at CB since he's a bullet and great in the tackle would do good. Rafinha even though small, won't be a problem because he's fast and Barcelona players don't excell in the air.

Schweinsteiger can match Xavi and Kroos Iniesta. Bayern are the only team on the planet who can match Barcelona possession wise, but Barcelona will still dominate possession, I'm sure. The key will be to press the hell out of their midfield. If they keep on playing 3-4-3 they will get raped down the wings, but 4-3-3 will be much tougher.

Gómez will be isolated for long whiles, so he will need to stay focused the whole match for those 2 or 3 chances he will have, because with Barca monopolizing possession, he's going to have to track back a lot.

The key battle here is in midfield. Playing Müller for Robben might not seem bad at all, because of his workrate and he's still a goal threat. Robben might be used as a supersub, or vice versa.
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Post by Arquitecto Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:33 pm

1. You lost ALL credibility when you made the ridiculous statement of saying Barca has support from institutions while victimizing Bayern. Does Klose's 20 yard offside goal against Fiorentina ring a bell? Without that Fiorentina would have been through

2. Schwiensteiger would need to be kept in the center to have any chance to neutralize Barca as otherwise Barca would dominate Bayern completely how Espana did to Germany. Keeping Kroos in that position would render him ineffective.

3. Badstuber in CB instead of Boateng? LOL. Keep Rafiha as right back with Lahm in LB as Barca aren't an aerial threat.

4. The rest of you points is just Fifa 12 guff about 'offensive/defensive' as you forgot to point out the actual tactical standpoint required rather than placement of positions.
Far more complicated than how you put it.
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Post by rwo power Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:48 pm

Arquitecto wrote:3. Badstuber in CB instead of Boateng? LOL. Keep Rafiha as right back with Lahm in LB as Barca aren't an aerial threat
Well, Badstuber needs to play next to Lahm. If you looked at Lahm's recent forays to the front (he actually almost played Left Mid once in a while), you need someone who can not only take care of the CB position, but possibly slightly more leftish, too. Stubsi has played that for a while. Boateng, can play CB, but he's better on the right side of that. I just wouldn't play Van Buyten as CB as that IMO invites disaster in the current setup when Lahm plays to offensivly again.
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Post by Arquitecto Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:05 pm

rwo power wrote:
Arquitecto wrote:3. Badstuber in CB instead of Boateng? LOL. Keep Rafiha as right back with Lahm in LB as Barca aren't an aerial threat
Well, Badstuber needs to play next to Lahm. If you looked at Lahm's recent forays to the front (he actually almost played Left Mid once in a while), you need someone who can not only take care of the CB position, but possibly slightly more leftish, too. Stubsi has played that for a while. Boateng, can play CB, but he's better on the right side of that. I just wouldn't play Van Buyten as CB as that IMO invites disaster in the current setup when Lahm plays to offensivly again.


While your points certainly have an element of strong validity in them, against Barca, it would be more effective to have the blend of pace, experience and physicality which comes in the form of Boateng and the in form Buyten.

Badstuber atm does not possess the necessary positional sense and reading of the game needed to neutralize Barca defense plus he is too shy against such attacks for me at the moment.

Eventually in theory, he can yes, but I feel my combination would prove optimal simply based on compliment of styles to each other.
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Post by Shotta Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:11 pm

1. You lost ALL credibility when you made the ridiculous statement of saying Barca has support from institutions while victimizing Bayern. Does Klose's 20 yard offside goal against Fiorentina ring a bell? Without that Fiorentina would have been through

Ha, that's the only excuse people can come up with while I can name more than 10 occasions Barfca has been helped out.

2. Schwiensteiger would need to be kept in the center to have any chance to neutralize Barca as otherwise Barca would dominate Bayern completely how Espana did to Germany. Keeping Kroos in that position would render him ineffective.

This is why 3 men are needed in midfield. Schweinsteiger would mark Xavi, Kroos the playmaker and Tymoshchuck marking MESSI. Why Messi? Messi is best controlled from the midfield, you need to press high against him so he becomes less of a goal threat to the shaky van Buyten and Badstuber. Van Buyten would go up to mark Iniesta.

3. Badstuber in CB instead of Boateng? LOL. Keep Rafiha as right back with Lahm in LB as Barca aren't an aerial threat.

It's not only that Rafinha sucks in the air, it's that he sucks defensively overall and makes silly fouls when he gets passed by an attacker. And we all know what a foul against Barcelona leads to.

4. The rest of you points is just Fifa 12 guff about 'offensive/defensive' as you forgot to point out the actual tactical standpoint required rather than placement of positions.

I said that tactical wise it's better to play Robben if Boateng is RB, not together with Rafinha as they are both very offensive and Robben never defends unlike Ribery. Even Rafinha said this himself. There are plans to keep BOA as RB anyway and I agree with that. Maybe Rafinha can be a Robben backup.
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Post by rwo power Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:50 pm

Arquitecto wrote:
rwo power wrote:
Arquitecto wrote:3. Badstuber in CB instead of Boateng? LOL. Keep Rafiha as right back with Lahm in LB as Barca aren't an aerial threat
Well, Badstuber needs to play next to Lahm. If you looked at Lahm's recent forays to the front (he actually almost played Left Mid once in a while), you need someone who can not only take care of the CB position, but possibly slightly more leftish, too. Stubsi has played that for a while. Boateng, can play CB, but he's better on the right side of that. I just wouldn't play Van Buyten as CB as that IMO invites disaster in the current setup when Lahm plays to offensivly again.


While your points certainly have an element of strong validity in them, against Barca, it would be more effective to have the blend of pace, experience and physicality which comes in the form of Boateng and the in form Buyten.

Badstuber atm does not possess the necessary positional sense and reading of the game needed to neutralize Barca defense plus he is too shy against such attacks for me at the moment.

Eventually in theory, he can yes, but I feel my combination would prove optimal simply based on compliment of styles to each other.
My worry about Boateng as CB is because he plays slightly too aggressively. Remember that he almost caused two penalties against ManCity?

I think one needs to consider where the clubs play each other, too. At Camp Nou I would strongly advise against Boateng as CB and Rafinha as RB as that invites bookings and possibly penalties. There the more calm and less aggressive Badstuber would be less of a liability. When they play at the Allianz Arena, I think Bayern can get away with slightly more aggressive play, and there one can risk using Boateng as CB and Rafinha as RB.

BTW, I don't think Badstuber's positional sense is as bad as you think. IMO he is rather good in his positioning, he was just at times a bit strained when he had not only his CB position to worry about, but also look after the spaces that Lahm left when he went too much in front.

BTW, if you look at that current setup with a more attacking Lahm, you almost have a 3-person defensive line left. I guess you can say Bayern sort of plays 3.5 players there Very Happy
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Post by The Messiah Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:20 pm

Well to begin with, against Barcelona I wouldn't change much in terms of formation, I will only change the team mentality and defend deep.

I don't think we have the players to pack the bus, Badstuber will fail miserably because he lacks the experience and ability to coup against the brilliance of Barcelona. Also Barcelona is a team that pressure and press at all time, through short passing and play acting, you only have to look back to the Bayern vs Napoli 2nd leg and see who got red carded. Badstuber will not be able to deal with Barcelona, he'll either get red carded(Cavani) or score and own goal(Napoli 1st leg) and lastly allow a goal(Yaya Toure). I dont know if anyone notice but the 1st leg against Napoli at some point a cross came in from the left side and Badstuber completely fell down with no one pushing him, this happen solely because of Pressure.

I'm certain if Badstuber is dropped we'll have more chance, like we played against City and like how Boateng and Van Buyten are still yet to lost a match or draw, so in any case I will go with the same formation against City first leg.


---------------------Neuer-----------------
Rafinha--Boateng------DVB-------Lahm
--------------^-------------------------------
-------------Tymo----------Schweini-------
-------------------King Kroos---------------
Robben-------------------------------Ribery
-------------------Gomez---------------------

Putting Tymo at the right side of midfield and playing deep will ensure the attacking minded Robben and Rafinha is sorted.

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Post by rwo power Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:25 pm

You do realize that the red card in the Napoli game was caused by a blatant dive from Cavani? If anyone should have been booked there it was Cavani for his dive.
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Post by The Messiah Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:39 pm

rwo power wrote:You do realize that the red card in the Napoli game was caused by a blatant dive from Cavani? If anyone should have been booked there it was Cavani for his dive.

Yeah I do realise that, but Barcelona have players who can dive more than Cavani and our players have to be careful against their play acting.

If Badstuber got red carded against Napoli Play acting, I wonder what will happen against Barca...
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Post by rwo power Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:42 pm

Well, that's why i mentioned a bit above that the team set-up depends a bit on where they play, too. Boateng is also a liability - remember it was sheer luck that the ref didn't give two penalties against him in the ManCity match where he played CB?
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Post by Shotta Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:03 pm

If we are gonna bench players because of Barca's diving antics, we should bench Tymo and Rafa too.
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Post by Sushi Master Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:17 pm

Actually, Badstuber's more composed defending would be more effective against Barca than aggressive, bulldog types. I've seen plenty of penalties conceeded due to aggressive defending.

Look at the Milan match in Camp Nou. Nesta and Silva were pretty much standing off the Barca attack, only pressing when needed.

Of course, when in form, because an out of form Badstuber is a scary thing Very Happy
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Post by rwo power Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:48 pm

Sushi Master wrote:Actually, Badstuber's more composed defending would be more effective against Barca than aggressive, bulldog types. I've seen plenty of penalties conceeded due to aggressive defending.
My sentiments, exactly!

Sushi Master wrote:Of course, when in form, because an out of form Badstuber is a scary thing Very Happy
Well, under Jupp Heynckes' tutelage, Stubsi will give his very best, I'm pretty sure.
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Post by Sushi Master Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:01 am

I still would not want to face Barcelona this season, though.

I think we need reinforcements, a consistant defensive lineup and to sort out Boateng's CB/RB identity crisis.

Duke Neukem
Boateng Höwedes Badstuber Lahm

Something like that, which I know won't happen until at least next season Very Happy
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Post by rwo power Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:49 am

Well, IMO the problem is that Boateng totally wants to play CB, but IMO he is not really at his best there. Keeping him RB would be better for the team, but I fear it would make Boateng unhappy on the long run.
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Post by juventus101 Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:04 pm

I think the best way to play would be like this:

--Neuer--
--Rafinha-- --Van Buyten-- --Boateng-- --Lahm--
--Schweini-- --Tymoschuk--
--Robben-- --Muller-- --Ribery--
--Gomez--

I think Rafinha should start and throw Badstuber to the bench because while Van Buyten is slow and sloppy sometimes, hes much more calm under pressure and experienced than Badstuber, not to mention Bayern havent lost a single game with Boa-DVB in center defense together. Schweinsteiger would mark Messi out of the game the same way he did when Germany beat up Argentina, and still distribute, but he showed he could do it before, so he could do it again. Tymoschuk is perfect as his workrate and tough attitude would Xavi under constant pressure. Bayern would also exploit the wings against Barca, which is Barcas biggest weakness and Bayerns biggest strength with Robbery. And I started Muller over Kroos to put in another constant goal threat so itd be Muller and Gomez vs Pique and Puyol instead of Gomez getting double teamed, but Kroos distribution could be useful as well, so either way would work. Either way, I think a full strength Bayern is the strongest team in the world and would beat Barca.
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Post by The Messiah Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:29 pm

Yeah I agree, the only way Bayern can play up to full potential is by dropping Badstuber, we don't need him along with his styles of Play.

We want a defender that will clear the ball and tackle an attacker whenever they run after him, not one that will merely run after an attacker waiting for a clean tackle that an attacker will never give him a chance to take..

Van Buyten is really good whenever he plays along side Boateng, no wonder Bayern have won all their matches whenever they play together.
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Post by rwo power Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:02 pm

Onmly drawback - Van Buyten is out for quite a while now. Looks like you are stuck with Stubsi now after all Razz (and his tackle numbers are actually not so bad - just check the stats)
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