Re: Agree or Disagree: Religion is needed to be a morally just person [or act as one].

by Fenris Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:57 pm

Yes, but to think anyone's actions are purely altruistic is a misleading line of thought.

by mr-r34 Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:20 pm

fatman123 wrote:
beatrixasdfghjk. wrote:Are you saying that agnostic/atheist righteousness is better than religious righteousness?
depending on intention of course
agnostic /athiest doing the right thing because its the right thing to do >>>>>>>>>> religous person doing the right thing because theyre scared of their god or they want some sort of reward in the afterlife

agnostic /athiest doing the right thing because its the right thing to do=religous person doing the right thing because its the right thing to do

religous person doing the right thing because theyre scared of their god or they want some sort of reward in the afterlife >>>>> agnostic/athiest doing the wrong thing

Could it not be possible a non religous person does it on the fear of being punished by society? Whats the diffrence between fear from society and god?

by MJ Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:47 pm

mr-r34 wrote:
Could it not be possible a non religous person does it on the fear of being punished by society? Whats the diffrence between fear from society and god?

Very good point. I think 'righteous atheists' would be more moralistic in a social environment, there's not a big difference between fear of rejection and punishment from society and God for a non-religious person and religious person respectively.

by che Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:17 pm

mr-r34 wrote:

Could it not be possible a non religous person does it on the fear of being punished by society? Whats the diffrence between fear from society and god?

society exists :coffee:

and i imagine "people are going to not like me if i do x" and "i'm going to burn in hell for eternity if i do x" are quite different states of mind

point is, fear of reproach from society is smaller than a religious person's fear of god's wrath (i imagine)

though generally i agree, we don't do immoral stuff because we'd get punished by the society in one way or another because people evolved in a social setting where they depended on each other

by The Messiah Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:36 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:So if Morals were present before Religions, why is it your view that Religion instilled those Morals? I just don't quite follow your logic there.

Especially since your example sort of underlines how Religion really isn't needed to tell right from wrong - especially when you consider that there's such a thing as secular moral philosophy that can answer questions of Morals and Ethics with reason, and sound arguments, instead of faith.

I don't mind if Religion keeps a couple of savages from murdering each other, I just think we can move past that and evolve our Morals and Ethics to better suit the world we live in. Like not condemning everyone who deviates from what is considered "normal". Why condemn homosexuals for example? They don't hurt anyone.

In fact, as a heterosexual male I greatly endorse other men being gay, as not to compete with me about desirable females. Go gay, and go gay hard, mates. You make delicious deserts, clean up the neighbourhoods and don't take my chicks. Bravo, bravo!
And Lesbians? Hooooooot if lipstick lesbians, wouldn't have hit that anyway if not.

All for it.

So suck it, old testament.

At least Protestantism shows you that Religion can evolve as well, but on a whole it tends to lack behind the actual social changes, as seen in the US where the Republicans are crippled by fundamentalist nutjobs, or the entire Middle East which was far ahead of the West scientifically until maybe up to the Renaissance, when a couple of hardliners plunged the entire region into some kind of Middle Ages caricature.

I don't necessarily think Religion is always bad, I just think that we have better tools to answer lifes questions nowadays. And they're enlightenment, science, reason and secular philosophy. Power to people and nature, not your imaginary big brother.

Now I see the reasons behind your views, it is in Human nature to prefer views that favour them.

by JuvenelCuore Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:38 am

7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
beatrixasdfghjk. wrote:Disagree.
Plenty of atheists and agnostics do just fine without religion: most people have ethics.

And then to provide an extreme example, you still get like those whacko religious terrorists who kill people because they think they'll end up with lots of women in their heaven or something, which is just ...

So no.

Good point. I had not even considered the opposite; religion can, in Islamic cases anyway, cause people to act immoral, albeit very few percentages of any religious group are fundamentalist in that they take word for word what is in their scripture. I doubt they would have done it had they not had a religious force telling them what to do.

Well played my friend.

Just saying, in no way does Islam endorse terrorism.

Here we go again...thanks for not adding to the discussion. :coffee:

by 7amood11 Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:40 am

JuvenelCuore wrote:
7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
beatrixasdfghjk. wrote:Disagree.
Plenty of atheists and agnostics do just fine without religion: most people have ethics.

And then to provide an extreme example, you still get like those whacko religious terrorists who kill people because they think they'll end up with lots of women in their heaven or something, which is just ...

So no.

Good point. I had not even considered the opposite; religion can, in Islamic cases anyway, cause people to act immoral, albeit very few percentages of any religious group are fundamentalist in that they take word for word what is in their scripture. I doubt they would have done it had they not had a religious force telling them what to do.

Well played my friend.

Just saying, in no way does Islam endorse terrorism.

Here we go again...thanks for not adding to the discussion.

No, don't get me wrong, I have no intention to start such a discussion. Was just saying that those "Muslims" who do such things are a disgrace and a misrepresentation. That's all.

by JuvenelCuore Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:34 pm

7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
beatrixasdfghjk. wrote:Disagree.
Plenty of atheists and agnostics do just fine without religion: most people have ethics.

And then to provide an extreme example, you still get like those whacko religious terrorists who kill people because they think they'll end up with lots of women in their heaven or something, which is just ...

So no.

Good point. I had not even considered the opposite; religion can, in Islamic cases anyway, cause people to act immoral, albeit very few percentages of any religious group are fundamentalist in that they take word for word what is in their scripture. I doubt they would have done it had they not had a religious force telling them what to do.

Well played my friend.

Just saying, in no way does Islam endorse terrorism.

Here we go again...thanks for not adding to the discussion.

No, don't get me wrong, I have no intention to start such a discussion. Was just saying that those "Muslims" who do such things are a disgrace and a misrepresentation. That's all.

Yes, but they are fundamentalists of the religion, whether or not what they do is acceptable is another story. Obviously nobody would endorse terrorism. :coffee:

by mr-r34 Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:41 pm

che wrote:
mr-r34 wrote:

Could it not be possible a non religous person does it on the fear of being punished by society? Whats the diffrence between fear from society and god?

society exists

and i imagine "people are going to not like me if i do x" and "i'm going to burn in hell for eternity if i do x" are quite different states of mind

point is, fear of reproach from society is smaller than a religious person's fear of god's wrath (i imagine)

though generally i agree, we don't do immoral stuff because we'd get punished by the society in one way or another because people evolved in a social setting where they depended on each other

Not just that aswell, you can also include, prison and punishment in that way, people would commit many small thefts if they knew the law wasn't there, they don't just not do it cause its wrong, it's cause they value their ass hole virginity as well.

by 7amood11 Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:55 pm

JuvenelCuore wrote:
7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
beatrixasdfghjk. wrote:Disagree.
Plenty of atheists and agnostics do just fine without religion: most people have ethics.

And then to provide an extreme example, you still get like those whacko religious terrorists who kill people because they think they'll end up with lots of women in their heaven or something, which is just ...

So no.

Good point. I had not even considered the opposite; religion can, in Islamic cases anyway, cause people to act immoral, albeit very few percentages of any religious group are fundamentalist in that they take word for word what is in their scripture. I doubt they would have done it had they not had a religious force telling them what to do.

Well played my friend.

Just saying, in no way does Islam endorse terrorism.

Here we go again...thanks for not adding to the discussion.

No, don't get me wrong, I have no intention to start such a discussion. Was just saying that those "Muslims" who do such things are a disgrace and a misrepresentation. That's all.

Yes, but they are fundamentalists of the religion, whether or not what they do is acceptable is another story. Obviously nobody would endorse terrorism.

Yup there are fundamentalists of the religion, I did not deny that. But to do what they do, you'd have to overlook a whole lot of basic things mentioned in Islam

by JuvenelCuore Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:09 pm

7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
beatrixasdfghjk. wrote:Disagree.
Plenty of atheists and agnostics do just fine without religion: most people have ethics.

And then to provide an extreme example, you still get like those whacko religious terrorists who kill people because they think they'll end up with lots of women in their heaven or something, which is just ...

So no.

Good point. I had not even considered the opposite; religion can, in Islamic cases anyway, cause people to act immoral, albeit very few percentages of any religious group are fundamentalist in that they take word for word what is in their scripture. I doubt they would have done it had they not had a religious force telling them what to do.

Well played my friend.

Just saying, in no way does Islam endorse terrorism.

Here we go again...thanks for not adding to the discussion.

No, don't get me wrong, I have no intention to start such a discussion. Was just saying that those "Muslims" who do such things are a disgrace and a misrepresentation. That's all.

Yes, but they are fundamentalists of the religion, whether or not what they do is acceptable is another story. Obviously nobody would endorse terrorism.

Yup there are fundamentalists of the religion, I did not deny that. But to do what they do, you'd have to overlook a whole lot of basic things mentioned in Islam

But you would also have to look toward a lot of basic things mentioned in Islam. :coffee:

by 7amood11 Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:18 pm

JuvenelCuore wrote:
7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
beatrixasdfghjk. wrote:Disagree.
Plenty of atheists and agnostics do just fine without religion: most people have ethics.

And then to provide an extreme example, you still get like those whacko religious terrorists who kill people because they think they'll end up with lots of women in their heaven or something, which is just ...

So no.

Good point. I had not even considered the opposite; religion can, in Islamic cases anyway, cause people to act immoral, albeit very few percentages of any religious group are fundamentalist in that they take word for word what is in their scripture. I doubt they would have done it had they not had a religious force telling them what to do.

Well played my friend.

Just saying, in no way does Islam endorse terrorism.

Here we go again...thanks for not adding to the discussion.

No, don't get me wrong, I have no intention to start such a discussion. Was just saying that those "Muslims" who do such things are a disgrace and a misrepresentation. That's all.

Yes, but they are fundamentalists of the religion, whether or not what they do is acceptable is another story. Obviously nobody would endorse terrorism.

Yup there are fundamentalists of the religion, I did not deny that. But to do what they do, you'd have to overlook a whole lot of basic things mentioned in Islam

But you would also have to look toward a lot of basic things mentioned in Islam.

No you don't, please stop making baseless assumptions.

Most ridiculous thing I've heard all day. silent

by JuvenelCuore Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:59 am

7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
beatrixasdfghjk. wrote:Disagree.
Plenty of atheists and agnostics do just fine without religion: most people have ethics.

And then to provide an extreme example, you still get like those whacko religious terrorists who kill people because they think they'll end up with lots of women in their heaven or something, which is just ...

So no.

Good point. I had not even considered the opposite; religion can, in Islamic cases anyway, cause people to act immoral, albeit very few percentages of any religious group are fundamentalist in that they take word for word what is in their scripture. I doubt they would have done it had they not had a religious force telling them what to do.

Well played my friend.

Just saying, in no way does Islam endorse terrorism.

Here we go again...thanks for not adding to the discussion.

No, don't get me wrong, I have no intention to start such a discussion. Was just saying that those "Muslims" who do such things are a disgrace and a misrepresentation. That's all.

Yes, but they are fundamentalists of the religion, whether or not what they do is acceptable is another story. Obviously nobody would endorse terrorism.

Yup there are fundamentalists of the religion, I did not deny that. But to do what they do, you'd have to overlook a whole lot of basic things mentioned in Islam

But you would also have to look toward a lot of basic things mentioned in Islam.

No you don't, please stop making baseless assumptions.

Most ridiculous thing I've heard all day.

My Philosophy teacher would disagree. :coffee:

by The_ItalianFool Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:03 am

JuvenelCuore wrote:
7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
beatrixasdfghjk. wrote:Disagree.
Plenty of atheists and agnostics do just fine without religion: most people have ethics.

And then to provide an extreme example, you still get like those whacko religious terrorists who kill people because they think they'll end up with lots of women in their heaven or something, which is just ...

So no.

Good point. I had not even considered the opposite; religion can, in Islamic cases anyway, cause people to act immoral, albeit very few percentages of any religious group are fundamentalist in that they take word for word what is in their scripture. I doubt they would have done it had they not had a religious force telling them what to do.

Well played my friend.

Just saying, in no way does Islam endorse terrorism.

Here we go again...thanks for not adding to the discussion.

No, don't get me wrong, I have no intention to start such a discussion. Was just saying that those "Muslims" who do such things are a disgrace and a misrepresentation. That's all.

Yes, but they are fundamentalists of the religion, whether or not what they do is acceptable is another story. Obviously nobody would endorse terrorism.

Yup there are fundamentalists of the religion, I did not deny that. But to do what they do, you'd have to overlook a whole lot of basic things mentioned in Islam

But you would also have to look toward a lot of basic things mentioned in Islam.

No you don't, please stop making baseless assumptions.

Most ridiculous thing I've heard all day.

My Philosophy teacher would disagree.

Just because a teacher says something or has a view about something doesn't make it correct.

by JuvenelCuore Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:06 am

Do you follow me around or something ?

This thread is not about Islam, it is about morality. If Momo had not gotten so defensive, nothing would have started. I never said Islam encouraged its followers to commit acts of terrorism because quite frankly that is absurd. :coffee:

by The_ItalianFool Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:11 am

JuvenelCuore wrote:Do you follow me around or something ?

This thread is not about Islam, it is about morality. If Momo had not gotten so defensive, nothing would have started. I never said Islam encouraged its followers to commit acts of terrorism because quite frankly that is absurd.

nope, i just read a lot and i feel the need to answer your posts sometimes.

by JuvenelCuore Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:12 am

The_ItalianFool wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:Do you follow me around or something ?

This thread is not about Islam, it is about morality. If Momo had not gotten so defensive, nothing would have started. I never said Islam encouraged its followers to commit acts of terrorism because quite frankly that is absurd.

nope, i just read a lot and i feel the need to answer your posts sometimes.

Do you run my fan club too ? :coffee:

by The_ItalianFool Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:12 am

JuvenelCuore wrote:
The_ItalianFool wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:Do you follow me around or something ?

This thread is not about Islam, it is about morality. If Momo had not gotten so defensive, nothing would have started. I never said Islam encouraged its followers to commit acts of terrorism because quite frankly that is absurd.

nope, i just read a lot and i feel the need to answer your posts sometimes.

Do you run my fan club too ?

Na I'm not a member of the TFC

by JuvenelCuore Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:24 am

The_ItalianFool wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
The_ItalianFool wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:Do you follow me around or something ?

This thread is not about Islam, it is about morality. If Momo had not gotten so defensive, nothing would have started. I never said Islam encouraged its followers to commit acts of terrorism because quite frankly that is absurd.

nope, i just read a lot and i feel the need to answer your posts sometimes.

Do you run my fan club too ?

Na I'm not a member of the TFC

Toronto Football Club ? Too bad, they are pretty popular here. :coffee:

by kiranr Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:52 am

JuvenelCuore wrote:

But you would also have to look toward a lot of basic things mentioned in Islam.

You cannot say things like this without backing it up. Same goes for 7amood too actually...

by 7amood11 Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:44 pm

JuvenelCuore wrote:Do you follow me around or something ?

This thread is not about Islam, it is about morality. If Momo had not gotten so defensive, nothing would have started. I never said Islam encouraged its followers to commit acts of terrorism because quite frankly that is absurd.

Yeah, I admit I got a bit defensive, but only because I thought it was necessary at the time. Islam condoning terrorist acts is a huge misconception, that's all there is to it.

@kiranr: Yes, I have more than enough to support my statement.

Now let's get back on topic. bounce

by JuvenelCuore Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:16 pm

7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:Do you follow me around or something ?

This thread is not about Islam, it is about morality. If Momo had not gotten so defensive, nothing would have started. I never said Islam encouraged its followers to commit acts of terrorism because quite frankly that is absurd.

Yeah, I admit I got a bit defensive, but only because I thought it was necessary at the time. Islam condoning terrorist acts is a huge misconception, that's all there is to it.

@kiranr: Yes, I have more than enough to support my statement.

Now let's get back on topic.

Nobody said it was condoned, simply that it was Islamic fundamentalists. This could mean that they misinterpreted it, not necessarily that it was right or relevant. :coffee:

by Keyzar Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:31 pm

JuvenelCuore wrote:
7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
beatrixasdfghjk. wrote:Disagree.
Plenty of atheists and agnostics do just fine without religion: most people have ethics.

And then to provide an extreme example, you still get like those whacko religious terrorists who kill people because they think they'll end up with lots of women in their heaven or something, which is just ...

So no.

Good point. I had not even considered the opposite; religion can, in Islamic cases anyway, cause people to act immoral, albeit very few percentages of any religious group are fundamentalist in that they take word for word what is in their scripture. I doubt they would have done it had they not had a religious force telling them what to do.

Well played my friend.

Just saying, in no way does Islam endorse terrorism.

Here we go again...thanks for not adding to the discussion.

No, don't get me wrong, I have no intention to start such a discussion. Was just saying that those "Muslims" who do such things are a disgrace and a misrepresentation. That's all.

Yes, but they are fundamentalists of the religion, whether or not what they do is acceptable is another story. Obviously nobody would endorse terrorism.

Yup there are fundamentalists of the religion, I did not deny that. But to do what they do, you'd have to overlook a whole lot of basic things mentioned in Islam

But you would also have to look toward a lot of basic things mentioned in Islam.

No you don't, please stop making baseless assumptions.

Most ridiculous thing I've heard all day.

My Philosophy teacher would disagree.

JNC, your attacks on Islam are uncalled for and unwarranted, your assumptions are baseless and built on absolute lies.

Islam is a religion of peace, the name ''Islam'' comes from the Arabic word ''Salaamah'' which means peace, if anything, the other religions have caused more havoc and terror than Islam, Chengis Khan was not a Muslim, Hitler(Christian) was not a muslim, the state of Israel which everyday commits genocide is not a Muslim state.

Therefore, keep your baseless assumptions to yourself, don't go about insulting the good name of the Islamic religion :coffee:

by Keyzar Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:32 pm

JuvenelCuore wrote:
7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
7amood11 wrote:
JuvenelCuore wrote:
beatrixasdfghjk. wrote:Disagree.
Plenty of atheists and agnostics do just fine without religion: most people have ethics.

And then to provide an extreme example, you still get like those whacko religious terrorists who kill people because they think they'll end up with lots of women in their heaven or something, which is just ...

So no.

Good point. I had not even considered the opposite; religion can, in Islamic cases anyway, cause people to act immoral, albeit very few percentages of any religious group are fundamentalist in that they take word for word what is in their scripture. I doubt they would have done it had they not had a religious force telling them what to do.

Well played my friend.

Just saying, in no way does Islam endorse terrorism.

Here we go again...thanks for not adding to the discussion.

No, don't get me wrong, I have no intention to start such a discussion. Was just saying that those "Muslims" who do such things are a disgrace and a misrepresentation. That's all.

Yes, but they are fundamentalists of the religion, whether or not what they do is acceptable is another story. Obviously nobody would endorse terrorism.

Yup there are fundamentalists of the religion, I did not deny that. But to do what they do, you'd have to overlook a whole lot of basic things mentioned in Islam

But you would also have to look toward a lot of basic things mentioned in Islam.

No you don't, please stop making baseless assumptions.

Most ridiculous thing I've heard all day.

My Philosophy teacher would disagree.

JNC, your attacks on Islam is uncalled for and unwarranted, your assumptions are baseless and built on absolute lies.

Islam is a religion of peace, the name ''Islam'' comes from the Arabic word ''Salaamah'' which means peace, if anything, the other religions have caused more havoc and terror than Islam, Chengis Khan was not a Muslim, Hitler(Christian) was not a muslim, the state of Israel which everyday commits genocide against the Palestinians, is not a Muslim state.

Therefore, keep your baseless assumptions to yourself, don't go about insulting the good name of the Islamic religion :coffee:

by RedOranje Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:56 pm

Please start editing out the middle quotes or start a new train for the conversation.

Also, every religion and belief system has the ability to inspire immoral acts in it's name. That does not mean said belief system endorses such acts.

by Keyzar Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:48 pm

Nothing needs to be edited out, i just quoted what he wrote, what he wrote can not be justified, it is a blatant attack on my religion.

And for your information RedOrange, no religion can inspire immoral acts, instead, religions are there to inspire and guide mankind, atleast i can speak for my religion, that is ISLAM.

Furthermore, no one should expect one to be calm and say nothing when one's religion is attacked blatantly and without a reason, like what JNC did here, i for one will not sit back and watch as my religion is disgraced for fun, i will RESPOND accordingly.

This is a religion we are talking about, not a football club.

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