Madrid tactical fail, but something to look at for the next meeting

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/08/18/mourinho-messi-false-nine/


Mourinho tries to counter Messi’s false nine role by pushing Carvalho up the pitch



One of the notable features from the second leg of the Spanish Supercopa was the positioning of Ricardo Carvalho, and his response to Lionel Messi’s movement into deep, slightly right-sided positions.

Messi tore Real apart in the 5-0 win last season, despite it being a rare occasion where he didn’t end up on the scoresheet. Real tried to play high up the pitch, but Messi played so deep that Jose Mourinho didn’t know how to deal with him – the two centre-backs stayed in position, but holding a high line. Therefore, Messi could receive the ball in space, turn, then send a ball through to one of the wide forwards coming inside. His two assists for David Villa’s goals were perfect, displaying exactly why Pep Guardiola wants to play Messi in that role.

As well as being a great goalscorer and a superb dribbler, Messi is fantastic at slipping the ball through the defence, particularly between full-back and centre-back, and stopping those balls becomes essential when he plays as a false nine.

The obvious answer is to push up a centre-back onto Messi – as Jonathan Wilson suggested before the Champions League final, to leave a bank of three at the back – two narrow full-backs tracking Villa and Pedro Rodriguez, a centre-back staying at home as a sweeper, and another playing high up the pitch on Messi.

Why has this become an issue now, when Real played Barcelona four times after the 5-0 last season? First, because in the four subsequent 2010/11 meetings, Real played very deep, leaving no space in behind and letting Barcelona come onto them. This made Messi’s role less dangerous (although not Messi himself less dangerous: he’s good enough to be a threat whatever the situation in the game) for various reasons.

First, because Real could focus on keeping it tight between the lines and deny him space that way. Second, because there was less space between Real’s defence and their goalline, for those balls in behind. Third, because playing deep seems to lend itself naturally to playing against a false nine – there’s simply less space for him to open up by dropping deep.

Mourinho’s decision to press from the front in this match meant Real had to stay compact and push up, to deny Barcelona space in midfield – and then the issue of tracking Messi arose. Carvalho spent much of the first half ahead of his other three defenders, closing Messi down before sprinting back into the defensive line.

The first goal showed that it didn’t quite work. Carvalho came out of defence and got beaten by Messi, who then played the ball through the gap between Pepe and Sergio Ramos (which had become artificially large, since Pepe had to cover two centre-back positions by himself) to Andres Iniesta.

Pepe, who became an aggressive midfield destroyer in the Clasicos last year, might have been the better man to play this role. Carvalho was beaten easily, and it may be that what he is good at – penalty box defending – isn’t useful in this situation. If this becomes the norm against a false nine (an advanced centre-back, covered by a sweeper ready to pick up runners from midfield and the wings), both players will need to be quick. The former needs to be able to turn quickly and get back in the defensive line, whilst the latter can’t be slow if he’s the last line of cover and is playing high up the pitch.

It is potentially another way the centre-back will evolve. On a related note, it was interesting that when Messi was playing as a false nine and tearing apart Arsenal in the Champions League in 2009/10 (at a time when Messi was relatively new to that role – Barca had played the majority of the campaign with him on the right and Zlatan Ibrahimovic upfront), when Arsene Wenger had to take off one of his centre-backs, Mikael Silvestre, he brought on another full-back, Emmanuel Eboue, rather than back-up centre-back Sol Campbell. He then had a defence of Eboue, Bacary Sagna, Thomas Vermaelen and Gael Clichy.

Sagna isn’t a centre-back by any stretch of the imagination, but the logic was sound (even if Messi did grab another goal). Arsenal needed to play high up the pitch to get back in the game, and with Vermaelen stereotypically coming up the pitch towards Messi, an ageing Campbell would have been a nightmare as the covering defender. By having a quick full-back alongside Vermaelen, Arsenal were theoretically more able to deal with Messi, even if that meant overlooking a natural centre-back for a gap at centre-back.

That’s an extreme example – Campbell was, with respect, probably past the point where he should have been playing Champions League football. But it points to a situation where slow, rugged centre-backs may struggle – albeit in a very specific setting: (a) when needing to play high up the pitch, and (b) against a team playing a false nine.

Coming back to the specifics, it’s hard to justify Carvalho’s place in the side if Real were about to replay this game. With Sergio Ramos comfortable at centre-back, his pace would have been much more useful. Alvaro Arbeloa could be the replacement right-back.

It’s not until December 11th that the sides reconvene at the Bernabeu, but it will be interesting to see how Mourinho adapts.



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If not fully understood, the tactical fail part is that Carvalho doesnt have the tools for the job Mou tried to force upon him. Pepe would of been a much better option and his physical abilities would of made it very difficult for Messi. I dont agree Carvalho has no place whatsoever, he has great position sense to him being the cover defend to sweep up danger isnt horrible. But I probably do agree Ramos would be better with Arbeloa playing the narrow fullback.

But its intresting and I do fuly expect Madrid to play in this fashion again. Thankfully we have Pep, who would of noticed this already or will notice it when he watches the footage. I imagine he would not be surprised by what he saw.

Him and Mourinho have been playing games of chess for a few games now, one making tactical adjustments while the other readjusts. Here we have another move.

I think Mourinho will want Cristiano again on the left, because even though he got owned, his presence alone restricts Alves runs forward. Because, this in theory would be the true counter to this tactic of Mou. Alves would exploit the narrow fullbacks even more then usual if not tracked from deep.

Who knows who will be available for that game anyone, injuries and suspensions will surely play a part.

Perhaps Adriano from the other side could exploit the narrow fullback situation.

Also perhaps, this could be a game for Sanchez. He makes excellent runs from deep, to inside, to out wide. The movement out wide plus his obvious ability to play out wide, mean he could exploit the space down there very well. More so then Villa or Pedro.

I imagine if he stationed himself out there like a true winger, the fullback will have to afford him space, or open up a large gap between himself and the only other Madrid centerback.

Anyway, saw this, thought I would post.

Excellent article dani and thanks for posting it.
But zonal marking have missed one critical tactical aspect and I am surprised no one has even mentioned it any of the post match analysis.
Even the Special Five fanboys who claim he is a tactical genius havent mentioned it.
Its the first time I have been impressed by the Special Five in a tactical sense.
It was his decision to mark Busquets using Ozil and Benzema.IMO it was the single biggest factor in making the game an even contest.
Watching the game I was surprised that Stoke didnt play with a traditional 9.Sometimes Ozil played there and sometimes Benzema.

They took it in turns to mark Busquets and never let him out of his sight.He was constantly harried and pressed.Normally Busquets would have evaded the pressure and still got the ball out of defense bt he looked woefully short of fitness and just couldnt dela with the intense pressure.
As a result Xavi dropped even deeper.But whenever he did Alonso or Khedira picked him up.Xavi too is woefully short of fitness and couldnt deal with the pressure and gave up far too many cheap balls.
Nonetheless impressive tactics from The Special Five.Putting Ozil and Benzema on Busquets made the game even.

Both excellent comments guys and I do agree that a fit Busquets, and indeed Barca, will deal with these tactics a lot better.

A great article, but its a really risky ploy in my opinion. Pepe, Carvalho or Ramos... at times they will all be beaten by Messi which will leave a 3v3 situation with Messi running at the centreback. Very risky, but its an attacking move instead of sacrificing a mid or 2 and parking the bus. Koscielny actually did this quite well a few times last year.

alexjanosik wrote:Excellent article dani and thanks for posting it.
But zonal marking have missed one critical tactical aspect and I am surprised no one has even mentioned it any of the post match analysis.
Even the Special Five fanboys who claim he is a tactical genius havent mentioned it.
Its the first time I have been impressed by the Special Five in a tactical sense.
It was his decision to mark Busquets using Ozil and Benzema.IMO it was the single biggest factor in making the game an even contest.
Watching the game I was surprised that Stoke didnt play with a traditional 9.Sometimes Ozil played there and sometimes Benzema.

They took it in turns to mark Busquets and never let him out of his sight.He was constantly harried and pressed.Normally Busquets would have evaded the pressure and still got the ball out of defense bt he looked woefully short of fitness and just couldnt dela with the intense pressure.
As a result Xavi dropped even deeper.But whenever he did Alonso or Khedira picked him up.Xavi too is woefully short of fitness and couldnt deal with the pressure and gave up far too many cheap balls.
Nonetheless impressive tactics from The Special Five.Putting Ozil and Benzema on Busquets made the game even.

That's exactly what happened. They never gave Busquets the chance to adjust himself and act as a pivot in the game. This allowed Madrid to push Barca back and more importantly, Xavi back and force him to play closer to the CBs than usual.

It was a very risky game-plan that allowed Madrid to actually have decent possesion and spells in the game and the benefits were great:
Busquets not allowed to play his game
Xavi being pushed back into a further defensive role
Forcing Messi and Iniesta to drop deep
Catching Villa and Pedro offside due to the high line employed.

However, it was a huge risk and energy saping tactic which if even for a second a mistake is made, the team would be picked off from a through ball through the center of the defensive line, leaving the GK by himself with the on-running attacker, which happened with Inieta's goal.

If you want my opinion, playing Pepe in that position rather than Carvalho would be a good idea, but I'm not sure Pepe has the discipline to not get red carded, or at least 2 yellows. I'm sure Messi and all of Barca would have a field day playing around Pepe trying to get him a second yellow after he got his first, which undoubtedly would happen sometime throughout the game. Although to be fair, it's not like Carvalho has a helluva lot of discipline, either. Pepe is just much worse.

CBarca wrote:If you want my opinion, playing Pepe in that position rather than Carvalho would be a good idea, but I'm not sure Pepe has the discipline to not get red carded, or at least 2 yellows. I'm sure Messi and all of Barca would have a field day playing around Pepe trying to get him a second yellow after he got his first, which undoubtedly would happen sometime throughout the game. Although to be fair, it's not like Carvalho has a helluva lot of discipline, either. Pepe is just much worse.

It's the same either way. If you play Pepe high, and he gets beaten, Carvalho would be really risky against Messi as the last defender. If you play Carvalho high, he'll get dribbled past more often than Pepe, but at least you still have Pepe who's faster and more physical to get past.

Anyways, this pressing/offensive game is kind of what Mourinho tried to do during the 5-0, but it was just too soon and ill-planned then. Both legs were surprisingly open with a plethora of chances, I wouldn't have been surprised if it ended 8-7 on aggregate or something.

izzy26 wrote:

alexjanosik wrote:Excellent article dani and thanks for posting it.
But zonal marking have missed one critical tactical aspect and I am surprised no one has even mentioned it any of the post match analysis.
Even the Special Five fanboys who claim he is a tactical genius havent mentioned it.
Its the first time I have been impressed by the Special Five in a tactical sense.
It was his decision to mark Busquets using Ozil and Benzema.IMO it was the single biggest factor in making the game an even contest.
Watching the game I was surprised that Stoke didnt play with a traditional 9.Sometimes Ozil played there and sometimes Benzema.

They took it in turns to mark Busquets and never let him out of his sight.He was constantly harried and pressed.Normally Busquets would have evaded the pressure and still got the ball out of defense bt he looked woefully short of fitness and just couldnt dela with the intense pressure.
As a result Xavi dropped even deeper.But whenever he did Alonso or Khedira picked him up.Xavi too is woefully short of fitness and couldnt deal with the pressure and gave up far too many cheap balls.
Nonetheless impressive tactics from The Special Five.Putting Ozil and Benzema on Busquets made the game even.

That's exactly what happened. They never gave Busquets the chance to adjust himself and act as a pivot in the game. This allowed Madrid to push Barca back and more importantly, Xavi back and force him to play closer to the CBs than usual.

It was a very risky game-plan that allowed Madrid to actually have decent possesion and spells in the game and the benefits were great:
Busquets not allowed to play his game
Xavi being pushed back into a further defensive role
Forcing Messi and Iniesta to drop deep
Catching Villa and Pedro offside due to the high line employed.

However, it was a huge risk and energy saping tactic which if even for a second a mistake is made, the team would be picked off from a through ball through the center of the defensive line, leaving the GK by himself with the on-running attacker, which happened with Inieta's goal.

I think this is the great thing about this Barca. You close up and you have virtually no attacking game, eventually Barca will wear you down. You open up and they'll kill you.


The next Classico is going to be great. Madrid's tactics will be more fine tuned. Players like Busquets and Xavi will be fit, and Guardiola will also likely make a few adjustments.

Carvalho is too slow now to play this kind of pressure and recover scheme. Varane is perfect for it.... But he needs seasoning. If Varane is ready come the next Classico, he will make a better cb for this scheme.

Missing Sahin was a big problem for us too. He is a true b2b mid with great passing skills. He allows us to play even more pressing from the mids because we will have a stud player on the bench with 3 of Xabi, Khedira, Coentrao and Sahin playing. When one tires, he can be comfortably replaced.

Coentrao is just learning to be a midfielder. He's getting better... But he's really mostly relying on his work rate right now and is not up to par positionally yet. That will come hopefully.

Finally, benzema can easilybplay 9 or false 9. If there are any issues with our build up, he just comes closer to the midfield and facilitates. That is a big difference compared to Higuain or ade.

We're a work in progress. But we're getting there.

BarcaKizz wrote:I think this is the great thing about this Barca. You close up and you have virtually no attacking game, eventually Barca will wear you down. You open up and they'll kill you.

The next Classico is going to be great. Madrid's tactics will be more fine tuned. Players like Busquets and Xavi will be fit, and Guardiola will also likely make a few adjustments.

I agree. Being to maintain that tempo of play is difficult, and it proved decisive. Finding a perfect strategy to beat Barca will not be easy.

We have to find a way to get our fitness levels even higher for the next game and also develop a solid plan B (probably even plan C) if we can not do so. I believe we have to find find a way to keep getting Messi to play a deeper role and force him further out wide. We also need to force Iniesta to play with his back to goal for the majority of the game. Him running at us and slipping through decisive passes is not something we need happening. While maintaining the same tactics that allowed us have possesion in these games.
A lot easier said than done.

Also, I assume Puyol will be back for the game to marshall the defensive, so we need to start very quickley and try to impose ourselves as quick as possible. Rotation from the front 4 is key. An early goal would be the ideal scenario for Madrid.

alexjanosik wrote:Excellent article dani and thanks for posting it.
But zonal marking have missed one critical tactical aspect and I am surprised no one has even mentioned it any of the post match analysis.
Even the Special Five fanboys who claim he is a tactical genius havent mentioned it.
Its the first time I have been impressed by the Special Five in a tactical sense.
It was his decision to mark Busquets using Ozil and Benzema.IMO it was the single biggest factor in making the game an even contest.
Watching the game I was surprised that Stoke didnt play with a traditional 9.Sometimes Ozil played there and sometimes Benzema.

They took it in turns to mark Busquets and never let him out of his sight.He was constantly harried and pressed.Normally Busquets would have evaded the pressure and still got the ball out of defense bt he looked woefully short of fitness and just couldnt dela with the intense pressure.
As a result Xavi dropped even deeper.But whenever he did Alonso or Khedira picked him up.Xavi too is woefully short of fitness and couldnt deal with the pressure and gave up far too many cheap balls.
Nonetheless impressive tactics from The Special Five.Putting Ozil and Benzema on Busquets made the game even.

I saw Mourinho do the samething in the CDR final in the first half when they were pressing high up the field.

Have you guys noticed the CBs go right to the corner flag to receive the ball from the GK when we are being pressed high. The same thing happened in the last game too.

kiranr wrote:Have you guys noticed the CBs go right to the corner flag to receive the ball from the GK when we are being pressed high. The same thing happened in the last game too.

This is pretty standard for us. However, wrong personnel and its a nightmare. When this happens, Busi drops onto the edge of the box to offer the central option. Abidal and Pique are great at it, Puyol's experience means he's not bad either. Mascherano, I'm not to keen on. Pinto playing in goals with this tactic, I'm not keen on either. Nor with Keita dropping centrally instead of Busi.

The solution to Busquets being marked is pretty simple.
One,with normnal fitness I dont think Busquets being marked should be a problem even with the current system.
After all Sir Alex used Rooney to mark Busquets in the CL final to no effect.Busquets was too damn good and too damn quick of mind for Rooney.

But say still there is a need to counter.Simple thing.
Busquets drops to sweeper position.Pique and Puyol go out wide.
Alves and Pedro/Sanchez/Abidal as the wingbacks.
I prefer Pedro as he will pin back their right flank.
Then a midfield 3 of Xavi,Iniesta and Thiago/Fabregas.
Messi and Villa upfront.
Its essential to note that the back 3 and Xavi will play like a diamond.Busquets at the bottom of the diamond.Pique to the right,Puyol to the left and xavi at the tip of the diamond.
If Benzema/Ozil pick up Busquets,he just passes to Xavi.If anyone of Alonso or Khedira comes forward to pick up Xavi he just passes it upfield to Iniesta and fab/Thiago.
This will leave them ridiculously exposed and outnumbered in midfield as we will have Iniesta and Fab/Thiago against just Alono or Khedira.
Plus Alves and pedro/Abidal/Sanchez to further add to the numbers.
So in all likelihhood they wont send a midfielder to pick up Xavi but if they do game over.
Important thing here is that the front 2 of Messi and Villa(Messi especially) dont drop back.They need to pin their Cb's back as much as possible.Cause if Messi drops deep their CB's may also come forward and we may lose the superiority in midfield as it becomes overcrowded.Granted it may leave Stoke exposed at the back but the superiorty in midfield is better.
Essentially something like this.

Busquets
Pique Puyol
Xavi
Alves Thiago Iniesta Pedro/Sanchez/Abidal

Messi Villa

^That's fantasy football, Barcelona won't be playing with 5 at the back in the near future.

Congratulations everyone on the first trophy of the season! Hopefully we can secure another this Friday against Porto!

On the topic of tactics, I MUST agree with Alex - his point in my own opinion is of outmost importance.

Although I hate the man, Mourinho is quite tactically adept. He attempts to neutralize a threat that results in the minimization of his chances of losing. Which makes him quite dangerous when he also gets lucky. What I mean by this is that he does not look at the weaknesses in an opponent to win a match but firstly he sorts the weaknesses out in his own team.

In the first Classico last season, he attempted to do something similar whereby he pressed Busquets to stifle our build up (our build up from the back is the most important part of our game alongside possession and insane work ethic in retrieving the ball when we dont have it - it serves the purpose of slowly pushing our opponent backwards to his goal and allowing our full attacking force to enter play). At the time of last years first Classico however Pique, Abidal and Alves were all in good to great ball playing form. Pique would push the ball towards the wings that would carry it forward to Xavi. If the wings were being pressed as well as Busquets, Pique would carry the ball forward to Xavi himself.

kiranr wrote:Have you guys noticed the CBs go right to the corner flag to receive the ball from the GK when we are being pressed high. The same thing happened in the last game too.

This is quite key to our game plan. By employing CBs that push towards the byline we open up the space to pass our way out of defense. We end up with a W formation (when everyone is fit):

---------------------Valdez
-------Puyol------------------------Pique
Alves--------------Busquets---------------Abidal

The problem with the last match was that RM allowed us possession between Pique and Masch, but marked Busquets tightly as well as Abidal and Alves. So to further stifle our build up, when Xavi dropped deep to collect the ball Khedira shadowed him. Due to our lack of match fitness and some rust we had real problems getting the ball out of our half in both matches. This served two purposes; we lost possession in dangerous areas that Madrid with better finishing should have exploited and as a desperate act at times we sent long balls to our forward line which are all below 175 cm resulting in a stunted attack and lowered chances on goal.

So the next step how do we fix this? (The initial idea I believe was to purchase a CBs that could bring the ball forward out of defense similar to Pique's skills - this is no longer seen as vital as before with Abidal, Fontas and Mascherano all being decent passers and Abidal especially adept at moving forward with the ball) I have a few alternate ideas to combat this new tactic:

1. Add an extra midfielder into the mix so we have two people dropping deep to collect, Xavi and Busquets. This results in the following set up during our defensive stage of build up:

-----------------Valdez
-------Puyol-----------------Pique
Alves-------Xavi-------Busq-------Abidal
-----New CM--------------Iniesta

With this setup there are 4 immediate passing outlets for our CBs with an additional two in close proximity. This means that to successfully press us in build up Madrid will need to employ 6 players and if they are stupid enough to press in such numbers so deeply, then once again Pique can carry the ball forward to Messi who plays in the gap and will turn with the ball past the half way mark with out a midfield struggle. Messi repeatedly receiving the ball in this position is game over 9/10.

The issue with this is we play with a False 9 that drops deep as well. So when you sacrifice an attacker (Pedro or Villa) for an extra midfielder you run the risk of having both a slopsided and toothless attack in quick transition. Furthermore, there is one out an out attacker to mark which puts much pressure on Messi the False 9 to do to much.

Therefore the only way for this successfully to work is to employ a midfielder who is much more attacking then Iniesta and Xavi. Preferably one that can also move onto the wing in a sort of hybrid cm/wing position like Iniesta has been known to do on the left while Alves motors past providing the width. Someone like Thiago could do this amazingly well. Furthermore, a midfielder with a goal scoring touch wouldn't hurt if they could play this position, someone like Fabregas... (hopefully you understand why both Cesc and Thiago are useful).

2. Add pace and trickery on the wings to get behind the high press with a more direct style. Both Pique and Mascherano can play decent long balls. Not to mention that Iniesta, Xavi and Messi can all play superb through balls. Pedro and Villa have both used these well in the past. However they lack the ability to be creative in the final third, push past a player and create and opening or simply dribble and hold the play up.

However, we have recently signed two players who will be able to add these needed skills to our squad. Afellay, who we saw last season against Madrid was such a player, who could be creative in the final third as well as blow past a player and create an opening. I think if used properly his skills as a CM alongside his pace can be quite devastating as a winger for us. The key will be Pep understanding the opponents tactics and employing rotation for our forward line.

Furthermore, the second player is Alexis who adds some bull like physicality to our forward line in the same way as Aguero does. He can blow past a player and dribble to hold up play. However his main problem will be decision making in my opinion when to do what and how to be most effective to bring in the rest of the team to successfully use his skills. I hope that we employ some counter attacking threats with these two players and they improve their finishing. I also hope we see a starting forward line of Afellay, Messi and Alexis occasionally which will see us using rotation adequately.

- I believe the above two scenarios are what Pep has in mind to play against a high press... ultimately I see our team's signings this season as brilliant to further our tactical innovation:

Fontas: good all around CB can bring the ball out from the back and has good passing skills to use against smaller teams who will try to pressure us.
Thiago: a likely hybrid cm/winger in easy to difficult games as he has a fantastic passing repetouire and impressive dribbling ability. This further makes him a plausible false 9 in copa games and against easy Liga opposition as a backup. Also a decent backup for our cm in case of injuries. Could potentially add some magic against park the bus tactics as he is unpredictable at times.
Cesc: a world class cm backup, a great hybrid cm/winger and will provide great rotation to keep our whole squad healthy. Can potentially add another creative force with his amazing final pass against the bus and perhaps another goal scoring threat apart from a hopeful Keita header. (Admittedly, perhaps not needed - but oh well!)
Afellay: obviously not a new signing but as yet not utilized to his potential. A great creative quick winger sub as well as a plausible false 9 in copa games and a great rotation player to keep our squad healthy and firing. Needs to improve his finishing and confidence in creating from the wing if he wants to succeed and hold down a first 11 position from Pedro and Villa
Alexis: a strong and explosive winger/inside forward. Can be used to get in behind defences as well as dribble in small spaces and hopefully help break the bus. Also needs to improve his finishing if he wants to become starting 11 material.

These signings add variation, depth and options as well as fulfilling both scenario 1 and 2 against RM and potentially other heavy weight European team's pressing attempts.

Here's to another successful season! Sorry for such a long post.

Omniscient wrote:^That's fantasy football, Barcelona won't be playing with 5 at the back in the near future.

You either don't watch Barca enough or inept at actually being tactically aware.

Barca routinely play 5 at the back. Pique + Puyol/Mascherano as the 2 CBs, Busquets as a sweeper that drops all the way to the box and Alves + Abidal as our Fullbacks that move forward. What Alex and I proposed was 6 players playing in the first two immediate defensive lines during build up.

Before you argue about barca not playing 5 at the back, there are different transitional parts of a match. It is not black and white with set positions. It is also not your fault that you haven't noticed this, most people watch football for the enjoyment while others see it as a more thinking tactical game...

@ svt

I am not comfortable sacrificing one of the wide players for an extra CM. Our play in attack will become narrow and ineffective. Instead of that, why can't a wide player occupy that space next to Iniesta instead of a CM. We can have either Alexis or Pedro occupying that spot and receiving passes from the Xavi or Alves or even Busquets and building the play from there!

kiranr wrote:@ svt

I am not comfortable sacrificing one of the wide players for an extra CM. Our play in attack will become narrow and ineffective. Instead of that, why can't a wide player occupy that space next to Iniesta instead of a CM. We can have either Alexis or Pedro occupying that spot and receiving passes from the Xavi or Alves or even Busquets and building the play from there!

Yes they could potentially. I'm not sure what Pep thinks of playing a forward in midfield... I can only speculate. My immediate thinking pattern is that playing a forward of Villa or Pedro's ilk would be a mistake. Neither can successfully build play or hold posession in midfield and may be asked to do too much going from midfield to attack. Also playing in midfield takes away two of their best weapons - off the ball movement on the defence and finishing.

If you want to play a forward there Alexis would be a better bet or even more so Afellay as he is more natural through the middle. The part that makes me think this won't happen is that it's a midfield position and pep might want to utilize our brilliant midfield bench players to keep everyone happy. That's why I think either Cesc or Thiago might be used in this setup as both are very attack orientated!

Yes, playing a mid in that position will definitely keep our back-up mids happy.

I think Thiago could play that role next to Iniesta very well. He has more in his arsenal than Cesc in terms of dribbling and when in possession can go out wide dragging opponents with him and still being able to keep the ball. Maybe Cesc could play that role too, but i have no idea how well he can hold onto the ball.

And the point about Villa or Pedro holding possession in the mid is also a good point svt.

All your other points made about signing Alexis and use of Affellay are all very well thought out.

Really looking forward to the new season and how Pep incorporates all these players on the pitch.

alexjanosik wrote:Excellent article dani and thanks for posting it.
But zonal marking have missed one critical tactical aspect and I am surprised no one has even mentioned it any of the post match analysis.
Even the Special Five fanboys who claim he is a tactical genius havent mentioned it.
Its the first time I have been impressed by the Special Five in a tactical sense.
It was his decision to mark Busquets using Ozil and Benzema.IMO it was the single biggest factor in making the game an even contest.
Watching the game I was surprised that Stoke didnt play with a traditional 9.Sometimes Ozil played there and sometimes Benzema.

They took it in turns to mark Busquets and never let him out of his sight.He was constantly harried and pressed.Normally Busquets would have evaded the pressure and still got the ball out of defense bt he looked woefully short of fitness and just couldnt dela with the intense pressure.
As a result Xavi dropped even deeper.But whenever he did Alonso or Khedira picked him up.Xavi too is woefully short of fitness and couldnt deal with the pressure and gave up far too many cheap balls.
Nonetheless impressive tactics from The Special Five.Putting Ozil and Benzema on Busquets made the game even.

True, Busi was heavily marked. I didnt instantly notice this, but it became apperent it wasnt just a random bout of pressure but a clear plan.

I think as you said, fitness played a part and I think like most, in full season mode, it would of been easier countered.

I think also, probably fatigue being a factor again, we didnt alwasy pass it quickly and delayed, thus making the Madrid press more effective. Even Valdes for me was to slow to get the ball on the ground and moving again quickly. Pique and Mascherano were both quilty of this also. We got drawn into, especially at the end of the game, long balls.

I agree, good tactic by Stokes coach, but to be honest I cant be too impressed. He has had untold oppurtunities to play us, you would expect he picks up some points.

svt wrote:Congratulations everyone on the first trophy of the season! Hopefully we can secure another this Friday against Porto!

On the topic of tactics, I MUST agree with Alex - his point in my own opinion is of outmost importance.

Although I hate the man, Mourinho is quite tactically adept. He attempts to neutralize a threat that results in the minimization of his chances of losing. Which makes him quite dangerous when he also gets lucky. What I mean by this is that he does not look at the weaknesses in an opponent to win a match but firstly he sorts the weaknesses out in his own team.

In the first Classico last season, he attempted to do something similar whereby he pressed Busquets to stifle our build up (our build up from the back is the most important part of our game alongside possession and insane work ethic in retrieving the ball when we dont have it - it serves the purpose of slowly pushing our opponent backwards to his goal and allowing our full attacking force to enter play). At the time of last years first Classico however Pique, Abidal and Alves were all in good to great ball playing form. Pique would push the ball towards the wings that would carry it forward to Xavi. If the wings were being pressed as well as Busquets, Pique would carry the ball forward to Xavi himself.

kiranr wrote:Have you guys noticed the CBs go right to the corner flag to receive the ball from the GK when we are being pressed high. The same thing happened in the last game too.

This is quite key to our game plan. By employing CBs that push towards the byline we open up the space to pass our way out of defense. We end up with a W formation (when everyone is fit):

---------------------Valdez
-------Puyol------------------------Pique
Alves--------------Busquets---------------Abidal

The problem with the last match was that RM allowed us possession between Pique and Masch, but marked Busquets tightly as well as Abidal and Alves. So to further stifle our build up, when Xavi dropped deep to collect the ball Khedira shadowed him. Due to our lack of match fitness and some rust we had real problems getting the ball out of our half in both matches. This served two purposes; we lost possession in dangerous areas that Madrid with better finishing should have exploited and as a desperate act at times we sent long balls to our forward line which are all below 175 cm resulting in a stunted attack and lowered chances on goal.

So the next step how do we fix this? (The initial idea I believe was to purchase a CBs that could bring the ball forward out of defense similar to Pique's skills - this is no longer seen as vital as before with Abidal, Fontas and Mascherano all being decent passers and Abidal especially adept at moving forward with the ball) I have a few alternate ideas to combat this new tactic:

1. Add an extra midfielder into the mix so we have two people dropping deep to collect, Xavi and Busquets. This results in the following set up during our defensive stage of build up:

-----------------Valdez
-------Puyol-----------------Pique
Alves-------Xavi-------Busq-------Abidal
-----New CM--------------Iniesta

With this setup there are 4 immediate passing outlets for our CBs with an additional two in close proximity. This means that to successfully press us in build up Madrid will need to employ 6 players and if they are stupid enough to press in such numbers so deeply, then once again Pique can carry the ball forward to Messi who plays in the gap and will turn with the ball past the half way mark with out a midfield struggle. Messi repeatedly receiving the ball in this position is game over 9/10.

The issue with this is we play with a False 9 that drops deep as well. So when you sacrifice an attacker (Pedro or Villa) for an extra midfielder you run the risk of having both a slopsided and toothless attack in quick transition. Furthermore, there is one out an out attacker to mark which puts much pressure on Messi the False 9 to do to much.

Therefore the only way for this successfully to work is to employ a midfielder who is much more attacking then Iniesta and Xavi. Preferably one that can also move onto the wing in a sort of hybrid cm/wing position like Iniesta has been known to do on the left while Alves motors past providing the width. Someone like Thiago could do this amazingly well. Furthermore, a midfielder with a goal scoring touch wouldn't hurt if they could play this position, someone like Fabregas... (hopefully you understand why both Cesc and Thiago are useful).

2. Add pace and trickery on the wings to get behind the high press with a more direct style. Both Pique and Mascherano can play decent long balls. Not to mention that Iniesta, Xavi and Messi can all play superb through balls. Pedro and Villa have both used these well in the past. However they lack the ability to be creative in the final third, push past a player and create and opening or simply dribble and hold the play up.

However, we have recently signed two players who will be able to add these needed skills to our squad. Afellay, who we saw last season against Madrid was such a player, who could be creative in the final third as well as blow past a player and create an opening. I think if used properly his skills as a CM alongside his pace can be quite devastating as a winger for us. The key will be Pep understanding the opponents tactics and employing rotation for our forward line.

Furthermore, the second player is Alexis who adds some bull like physicality to our forward line in the same way as Aguero does. He can blow past a player and dribble to hold up play. However his main problem will be decision making in my opinion when to do what and how to be most effective to bring in the rest of the team to successfully use his skills. I hope that we employ some counter attacking threats with these two players and they improve their finishing. I also hope we see a starting forward line of Afellay, Messi and Alexis occasionally which will see us using rotation adequately.

- I believe the above two scenarios are what Pep has in mind to play against a high press... ultimately I see our team's signings this season as brilliant to further our tactical innovation:

Fontas: good all around CB can bring the ball out from the back and has good passing skills to use against smaller teams who will try to pressure us.
Thiago: a likely hybrid cm/winger in easy to difficult games as he has a fantastic passing repetouire and impressive dribbling ability. This further makes him a plausible false 9 in copa games and against easy Liga opposition as a backup. Also a decent backup for our cm in case of injuries. Could potentially add some magic against park the bus tactics as he is unpredictable at times.
Cesc: a world class cm backup, a great hybrid cm/winger and will provide great rotation to keep our whole squad healthy. Can potentially add another creative force with his amazing final pass against the bus and perhaps another goal scoring threat apart from a hopeful Keita header. (Admittedly, perhaps not needed - but oh well!)
Afellay: obviously not a new signing but as yet not utilized to his potential. A great creative quick winger sub as well as a plausible false 9 in copa games and a great rotation player to keep our squad healthy and firing. Needs to improve his finishing and confidence in creating from the wing if he wants to succeed and hold down a first 11 position from Pedro and Villa
Alexis: a strong and explosive winger/inside forward. Can be used to get in behind defences as well as dribble in small spaces and hopefully help break the bus. Also needs to improve his finishing if he wants to become starting 11 material.

These signings add variation, depth and options as well as fulfilling both scenario 1 and 2 against RM and potentially other heavy weight European team's pressing attempts.

Here's to another successful season! Sorry for such a long post.

svt
We have basically prposed the same diea,that of playing the xtra midfielder.But our steup is a bit different.And I dont quite agree with your setup to counter the specific tactic of Stoke pressing us.
You have proposed 2 midfield lines of 2 to counter the pressing and here is why I think it would be a problem.
Xavi,Busquets,Iniesta and fab are all ball playing midfielders and playing them bunched up all close together would be a case of too many cooks spoiling the borth.They would get in each oother's way plus make it easier for Stoke to press us and close off space.
Thats why I think there should be 3 layers instaed of 3 to counter the pressing.The 4 ball playing midfielders would be spread out at a relative distance and thus not get in each other's way.They would also not be too far apart that the others cant find them.
Plus this way Stoke would have to cover a lot more ground thatn if it was just 2 layers.
Also having a diamond would create much better natural passing triangles.
I also dont think Messi should drop back as if he did there would be just 1 forward up against 3 Stoke defenders(assuming one of Pepe/Carvalho come up to pick up Messi).
So imo it would be better to play a diamond at the back instaed of 2 layers of 2 each.
Ofcourse I could be wrong and your method could be the more effective method.
What do you think?

Oh wow we're actually talking about the football of this match?

Mamad wrote:Tactical fail? lmao. in first match, the fair result was 6-2 not 2-2. in second one, the fair result was a draw.

Mou is a Tactical Genius no matter what some Barca fans say. you hate him, but you can't question his Coaching ability with such nonsense.

Mind reading the article first? Mou can make mistakes just as much as everyone else.

Mamad wrote:Tactical fail? lmao. in first match, the fair result was 6-2 not 2-2. in second one, the fair result was a draw.

Mou is a Tactical Genius no matter what some Barca fans say. you hate him, but you can't question his Coaching ability with such nonsense.

Read the thread or dont post.

Yes, tactical fail. He made a mistake in making Carvalho come out from the back instead of Pepe.