Re: Lampard is the cancer in Chelsea

by lszanto Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:56 pm

RedOranje wrote:
bhends wrote:Im noticing a theme of awkward situations surrounding aging players who have been at their respective clubs for long times...

Zanetti, Totti, Lampard, Gerrard, Del Piero, Raul, Inzaghi, Pirlo...
Not sure why Gerrard's being mentioned.

Lampard is the cancer in Chelsea - Page 2 NotSureIfSerious

by RedOranje Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:59 pm

lszanto wrote:
RedOranje wrote:
bhends wrote:Im noticing a theme of awkward situations surrounding aging players who have been at their respective clubs for long times...

Zanetti, Totti, Lampard, Gerrard, Del Piero, Raul, Inzaghi, Pirlo...
Not sure why Gerrard's being mentioned.

He's been injured basically throughout the time Kenny's been in charge, but in the few games he did play he slotted in well. With the sale of Meireles there's space for him in the side and with the rest he's set to come back in good physical and mental shape. So yes, I am serious.

by lszanto Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:02 pm

He will never get back to what he was though, nor will he be the driving force behind liverpool(imo). I'm not gonna argue that he's inspirational and a great player/asset for you guys, but to me he is past his prime.

+ injury aside didn't he have a pretty average year last year? I can't really judge as I don't see you guys play enough, but the team were performing the same way with or without him.

by Swanhends Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:08 pm

RedOranje wrote:
bhends wrote:Im noticing a theme of awkward situations surrounding aging players who have been at their respective clubs for long times...

Zanetti, Totti, Lampard, Gerrard, Del Piero, Raul, Inzaghi, Pirlo...
Not sure why Gerrard's being mentioned.

So you think Gerrard will be pleased with returning from injury to a place on the bench?

or do you think you should field a weakened team to accommodate him?

Somehow I can't help but think you'll contest the second question but I think most people would agree with me..

by RedOranje Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:12 pm

Henderson dropping to the bench for Gerrard would be a weaker team? And to say that Gerrard won't come back as a great player is premature to the extreme. Under Roy, everyone was average last year, lest we forget.

by Swanhends Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:16 pm

I thought we'd learnt from England how playing Gerrard out wide works out?

Unless you're planning on playing Gerrard in the center and playing with 1 striker (which would mean either dropping or playing Suarez wide)?

by Arquitecto Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:18 pm

A past his prime Gerrard is still a force to be reckoned with.

Better then 95% of midfielders of today.

by RedOranje Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:23 pm

bhends wrote:I thought we'd learnt from England how playing Gerrard out wide works out?

Unless you're planning on playing Gerrard in the center and playing with 1 striker (which would mean either dropping or playing Suarez wide)?

Gerrard's best season statistically was at RW for us. It's also nothing new to have players interchange positions and float. Suarez did so with Meireles and Kuyt and could just as easily do so with Gerrard who has demonstrated before he can work well in a roaming role. If anything, we are now MORE suited to Gerrard's game than before with Suarez able to move to open up space with Gerrard either inbehind Carroll or as a striker.

We've played 4-2-3-1 for years and a forward four of Gerrard, Suarez, Downing, and Kuyt or Carroll allows for roaming from both Gerrard and Suarez (with Johnson or Kelly getting forward to provide width) while Downing balances that with natural width.

I fail to see how Gerrard stepping into the side in place of Henderson (or Carroll, depending on who you ask) does anything more than offer us more options and more dynamism in attack.

by Swanhends Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:28 pm

RedOranje wrote:I fail to see how Gerrard stepping into the side in place of Henderson (or Carroll, depending on who you ask) does anything more than offer us more options and more dynamism in attack.

I guess we'll see Wink

Also

Art_Morte wrote:It's a good point and can be a tender issue.
Good managers will notice when someone is losing form & fitness due to their age and will have the balls to bench those players. But for fans it's different, a portion of them will go mad if their club legend is made a bench player.

Theory in action? Very Happy

by RedOranje Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:30 pm

I'm not upset about Kenny benching Gerrard though, as he's made it clear that's not going to happen.

You're above such fallacious arguments, bhends.

by Arquitecto Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:31 pm

RedOranje wrote:I'm not upset about Kenny benching Gerrard though, as he's made it clear that's not going to happen.

You're about such fallacious arguments, bhends.

Well with the media of today is hard to get a clear perspective on whats the truth and whats fallacy.

I wouldn't be surprised if bhends is a victim of that.

by BeautifulGame Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:40 pm

Can anyone explain me how Gerrard had a poor year last year despite being one of our best players.Why talk based on assumptions rather than facts.I hate these Gerrard will make Liverpool weaker statements without any arguements.Can those who make these statements back up the claims with some proof.

The two best wins we had under Kenny last year were away at Chelsea and at home to United.Both these matches he was one of our best players.And he along with Reina and Lucas were the only ones who had their reputation intact under the Hodgson reign.

Its all good saying one of the best midfielders in Europe will weaken our team but atleast if are making these fallacious comments please back them up with some facts or proofs.Sneijder had an injury plagued season last year too can we now assume that including Sneijder will weaken Inter and past his best?

by Swanhends Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:41 pm

RedOranje wrote:I'm not upset about Kenny benching Gerrard though, as he's made it clear that's not going to happen.

Then why exactly are you so defensive?

"Gerrard" and "bench" get brought up in the same sentence as a possible outcome and suddenly Liverpool fans are circling the wagons....

...which is roughly the exact thing that Art_Morte predicted

by BeautifulGame Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:50 pm

bhends wrote:
RedOranje wrote:I'm not upset about Kenny benching Gerrard though, as he's made it clear that's not going to happen.

Then why exactly are you so defensive?

"Gerrard" and "bench" get brought up in the same sentence as a possible outcome and suddenly Liverpool fans are circling the wagons....

...which is roughly the exact thing that Art_Morte predicted

Because ur comments didnt make any sense.U basically saying we should bench our best midfielder and one of our best players last season should be benched because he will weaken our team. :facepalm:

by Swanhends Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:57 pm

I think you're confusing "didn't make sense" with "didn't share my opinion"

That must not be it, clearly I am a revolutionary for suggesting that inserting a 31 year old with recent injury problems into the starting lineup a couple weeks into the season would be detrimental to a team in good form that's trying to find a new identity...

by BeautifulGame Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:09 pm

bhends wrote:I think you're confusing "didn't make sense" with "didn't share my opinion"

That must not be it, clearly I am a revolutionary for suggesting that inserting a 31 year old with recent injury problems into the starting lineup a couple weeks into the season would be detrimental to a team in good form that's trying to find a new identity...

If u are saying that gerrard wont recover his best form after injuries then it fair enough it would have been difference of opinion because no one knows how future will pan out.But to say the inclusion one of our best players (last season too )will weaken our team is not about difference of opinion it just doesnt make any sense.

by RedOranje Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:10 pm

bhends wrote:
RedOranje wrote:I'm not upset about Kenny benching Gerrard though, as he's made it clear that's not going to happen.

Then why exactly are you so defensive?

"Gerrard" and "bench" get brought up in the same sentence as a possible outcome and suddenly Liverpool fans are circling the wagons....

...which is roughly the exact thing that Art_Morte predicted

Should say "above" not "About."

So let me get this straight... I leave your original statement be and it's "correct." I respond to it (by initially question it, then explaining why I disagree WITHOUT insulting you or your idea) and I'm being defensive... thus supposedly proving your original statement correct.

Like I said, fallacious argumentation.

I wasn't being defensive, I was merely giving explaining why his name should not be included in that group. I provided evidence and reasoned statements rather than insults and fallacious claims. I see only one person who can be considered defensive in this discussion.

by Arquitecto Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:12 pm

I really don't think bhends deserves his criticism considering he is simply misinformed by the fallacy of todays media itself.

by Guest Sun Sep 04, 2011 6:17 pm

I, too, think Gerrard will play in Hendo's position.

I think one thing that Billy has failed to mention is that, Gerrard coming in for Hendo, doesn't make him a wide player.
I watched Bolton game again, and Hendo was on the right, centre and sometimes on the left. Same with Downing and Suarez, all interchanging positions.

Gerrard coming for Hendo, might mean when the first whistle goes, he is on the right, but the 3 AMs will all be interchanging positions.

Also, Gerrard has had a bad spell on LW with England ,but he played RW for us in 05-06 (or was it 06-07) season, for us and he was absolutely excellent there scoring 23 goals.

by Art Morte Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:03 pm

I believe Gerrard will come back as a player who is going to improve our First XI. However, I won't be shocked and surprised if a 31-yo Gerrard after a 6 month lay-off will end up struggling for form.

And to someone else that belief can be the other way round, believing Gerrard is gonna struggle, but won't be shockky shockky surprised if Steven goes on to have a marvellous season.

I don't think either side have to be adamant about their view at this point because only the great force of time will tell us.

by Gil Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:09 pm

Why exactly does Gerrard have to play RW?

Downing Carroll Suarez
Gerrard
Lucas Adam

That could work, no?

by Blue Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:15 pm

Immaculate_Mole wrote:
Arquitecto wrote:LOL at this thread.

Lampard may not be the player he used to be but he still is Chelsea's best midfielder and was their best last season. Just due to injuries and inconsistencies from Torres, Ancelotti and other factors, Lamps simply had it bad. I mean he scored 27 and 20 goals in Carlo's debut season ffs.

And even then in last season he had 13 goals and 6 assists

Plus, Lampard not being creative for Chelsea is one of the BIGGEST myths.

I Agree it is a myth in a sense.....

Lampard is very creative for Chelsea but only in the final third like Fabregas his job to score goal's and provide the final pass what Chelsea need is someone who can create from deep and allow Lampard to do what he does.....

A Modric, Wilshere. X.Alonso, Xavi, Charlie Adam, Sweignsteiger, Sahin etc etc

I realise majority of them are not realistic but that is the type Chelsea need imo.

This, i think Lampard could still be very effective if we allow him to do what he does best, and that is to score goals and be creative in the final pass. It is very unrealistic to expect him to be our most creative midfielder in the final ball and deep in midfield. The expectation is for him to be the only creative midfielder.

IMO our midfield biggest problem is Mikel and Ramires. Both very good players but they should not be on the pitch at the same time, because together they make our midfield slow and predictable. One of them should be on the pitch( prefer Mikel) and play him alongside a passer( McEachran).

by RedOranje Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:15 pm

Gil wrote:Why exactly does Gerrard have to play RW?

Downing Carroll Suarez
Gerrard
Lucas Adam

That could work, no?

The question was where Gerrard would step in. As I've said in other threads, the club are mirroring Barca's plan of using a similar set up throughout the development levels and that is one based on a 4-2-3-1 formation. Kenny himself has expressed his preference for such a set up. HOWEVER. where Gerrard starts and what the most used formation is have no real bearing on where he'll most often be found during matches. It is very, very likely that he and Suarez will be given free, roaming roles and therefore even if Gerrard starts in Henderson's place on the right he will be popping up all over the midfield and attacking third. So while I believe it likely that Gerrard will indeed start on the right, he almost certainly will not be playing as a right winger.

Also, Kenny's shown in the past half season that he won't hesitate to change up the formation to better suit the game at hand, so I think we can expect to see players start in several different positions throughout the season and also be rotated as necessary, Gerrard included.

by Art Morte Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:17 pm

Gil wrote:Why exactly does Gerrard have to play RW?

Downing Carroll Suarez
Gerrard
Lucas Adam

That could work, no?

Well yeah, as long as Downing and Suarez have got the legs to track back.

by EarlyPrototype Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:17 pm

Gil wrote:Why exactly does Gerrard have to play RW?

Downing Carroll Suarez
Gerrard
Lucas Adam

That could work, no?

I would go with the same formation except swap Downing and Suarez to the other side.

Edit: Unless of course Liverpool are just gonna cross it into Caroll.

by checazzofai Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:23 pm

bhends wrote:Im noticing a theme of awkward situations surrounding aging players who have been at their respective clubs for long times...

Zanetti, Totti, Lampard, Gerrard, Del Piero, Raul, Inzaghi, Pirlo...

Totti is still easily our best player and there is no one who could replace him in our squad, the "awkward situation" that many people are talking about in Rome is just speculation to sell papers and rival fans are eating it up aswell. Totti hasnt said 1 word and neither has Enrique.

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