Lionel Messi Cements Himself as the GOAT

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Post by Cruijf Tue Dec 20, 2022 1:40 pm

titosantill wrote:
El Gunner wrote:https://i.servimg.com/u/f69/18/75/76/10/argent10.png

here is the supposed "great" team Messi stepped onto the field with in the 2014 final... please tell me who besides Mascherano was a top class player here Laughing  Higuain was supposed to be, but we all know what he did


this is ridiculous. super ridiculous. that's a good team, unless you want xavi iniesta villa puyol on that team. that's a solid squad. i might even argue on paper, with the exception of di maria and maybe the goalie (on paper, not taking into account the result of this tournament) that squad was better than this one messi led to the title. i cant remember, anyone know why di maria wasnt on that squad?

low key di maria has to be a top 5 argentine of all time . messi and diego are clearly better. anybody else, there is a debate to be had.


Di Maria was injured.

My problem with Di Maria has always been that he is very inconsistent. But what he has is insane clutchness, always rises to the occasion.

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Post by Harmonica Tue Dec 20, 2022 1:45 pm

Di Maria scored the winner in Olympics, Copa America and also scored in IC cup final and of course the WC final. That's a great record to have. The problem with him has always been injuries, at some point of the tournament he always gets injured. Here it probably was a blessing in disquise he was injured middle of the tournament and could then be fit for the final.
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Post by El Gunner Tue Dec 20, 2022 3:46 pm

@titosantill i'm not saying it was a piss poor team, but it definitely wasn't a "great team" as farfan tries to make it out to be...
be honest... did you ever hear about Lavezzi and Perez and Biglia after that final again? Please stop it. They are decent players, but definitely the team wasn't as good as the German team... and still they were probably only a calm and collected Higuain and/or fit Di Maria away from winning that final.

i agree WC Messi 14 wasn't as good as WC Messi 22, but it doesn't mean that he didn't perform to a high enough quality that World Cup to win it all. He scored 4 goals, and there wasn't even another Argentine who scored more than one goal (that was the amount of carrying he was doing). This WC he had Alvarez who was a reliable goal scoring partner. In 2014 knockouts their plan was basically to try and scrape through 1-0 wins all the way.
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Post by titosantill Tue Dec 20, 2022 5:20 pm

its a team good enough to win the world cup. the idea that everyone has to be a world beater to win the world cup is absurd. it isn't a league tournament where u need two great players in every position. on paper, that team, and the team in 2006 are better than this team (but messi wasn't messi in 06)

that team was good enough to win, and a lot of those players played well in the knockout stages. is it a great team? no, but it can go blow for blow with most teams in a one-game match up.

unless u're saying messi should have had the entire barca team of 2010 and zlatan coming off his bench as his teammates to win the world cup. hell wait a minute wasn't aguero on that team? i think they had a reasonable bench too now that i think about it....lol dont make me research who was on that squad
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Post by Cruijf Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:06 pm

farfan wrote:

I don't have to take any Ls regarding my assessment of  Messi's previous world cup performances. My point is that juxtaposing this year's performances with ones from past world cups makes some of the claims made by his fans even sillier in retrospect. For example, we had people here and elsewhere insist 2014 was an all-time great performance. They tried  to convince us that dribbles into dead ends were a valid metric for rating an offensive player's contributions and that goals and assists weren't the be all end all . You can find posters making these arguments as recently as the start of the 2022 WC Laughing

I never denied that they were variables outside of his control and extenuating circumstances that led to some of  these failures, mainly in 2010 and 2018. 2014 on the other hand was a great team and Messi was truly lethargic in the most crucial games and missed a fair bit of chances too.

To summarize:

2022: Legendary performance, legacy-defining.
2010 & 2018: Unremarkable, mainly due to poor tactics and/or subpar teammates.
2014: Solid team, great group stage contributions, went missing when it mattered, a subpar performance for an all-time great, didn't deserve the golden ball imo.


By the way, what is your take on the GOAT debate now? Would be interested to hear.
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Post by farfan Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:17 pm

Cruijf wrote:
farfan wrote:

I don't have to take any Ls regarding my assessment of  Messi's previous world cup performances. My point is that juxtaposing this year's performances with ones from past world cups makes some of the claims made by his fans even sillier in retrospect. For example, we had people here and elsewhere insist 2014 was an all-time great performance. They tried  to convince us that dribbles into dead ends were a valid metric for rating an offensive player's contributions and that goals and assists weren't the be all end all . You can find posters making these arguments as recently as the start of the 2022 WC Laughing

I never denied that they were variables outside of his control and extenuating circumstances that led to some of  these failures, mainly in 2010 and 2018. 2014 on the other hand was a great team and Messi was truly lethargic in the most crucial games and missed a fair bit of chances too.

To summarize:

2022: Legendary performance, legacy-defining.
2010 & 2018: Unremarkable, mainly due to poor tactics and/or subpar teammates.
2014: Solid team, great group stage contributions, went missing when it mattered, a subpar performance for an all-time great, didn't deserve the golden ball imo.


By the way, what is your take on the GOAT debate now? Would be interested to hear.


It always Messi for me, with or without this WC. He's not my personal favorite but he did so much for so long it's hard to argue otherwise.
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Post by Warrior Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:21 pm

El Gunner wrote:lovely thread of famous people congratulating him




Lots of top footballers and athletes in general

It's missing Piqué (why ?) and that bitter portuguese guy (no need to ask why)
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Post by farfan Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:24 pm

Warrior wrote:
El Gunner wrote:lovely thread of famous people congratulating him






Lots of top footballers and athletes in general

It's missing Piqué (why ?) and that bitter portuguese guy (no need to ask why)


His sister did praise Mbappé's performance and called this WC the worst of all time Laughing
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Post by El Gunner Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:30 pm

not only bitter, but also bad losers Laughing
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Post by Warrior Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:31 pm

Lionel Messi Cements Himself as the GOAT - Page 3 Ronald10
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Post by Myesyats Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:47 pm

It’s funny because you just know CR is fuming lmao

Got beat even in instagram likes
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Post by Harmonica Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:07 pm

Myesyats wrote:It’s funny because you just know CR is fuming lmao

Got beat even in instagram likes
I find it funny that the third most liked picture is by Cronaldo, and that's him and Messi playing chess, posted just before World Cup. Laughing Messi has posted the same pic but still, it's like a resounding checkmate now.
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Post by Cruijf Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:34 pm

farfan wrote:

It always Messi for me, with or without this WC. He's not my personal favorite but he did so much for so long it's hard to argue otherwise.


Never would've guessed Laughing
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Post by BarcaLearning Tue Dec 20, 2022 10:20 pm

2014 teams definitely not great, not anyway near WC. Biglia suck period. Mascherano was a pure DM n offered nothing going forward basically. It was quite loaded up front comparatively speaking, but the midfield was terrible. Apart from Di Maria Messi had no one to link up with, N dunno what ppl think about that defense but think Demichelis? Worst defender ever. Romero was poor comparatively speaking as well, Arg usually had top GKs but he definitely wasnt one, etc, etc.
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Post by Winter is Coming Wed Dec 21, 2022 2:20 am

farfan wrote:I don't have to take any Ls regarding my assessment of  Messi's previous world cup performances. My point is that juxtaposing this year's performances with ones from past world cups makes some of the claims made by his fans even sillier in retrospect. For example, we had people here and elsewhere insist 2014 was an all-time great performance. They tried  to convince us that dribbles into dead ends were a valid metric for rating an offensive player's contributions and that goals and assists weren't the be all end all . You can find posters making these arguments as recently as the start of the 2022 WC Laughing

I never denied that they were variables outside of his control and extenuating circumstances that led to some of  these failures, mainly in 2010 and 2018. 2014 on the other hand was a great team and Messi was truly lethargic in the most crucial games and missed a fair bit of chances too.

To summarize:

2022: Legendary performance, legacy-defining.
2010 & 2018: Unremarkable, mainly due to poor tactics and/or subpar teammates.
2014: Solid team, great group stage contributions, went missing when it mattered, a subpar performance for an all-time great, didn't deserve the golden ball imo.

That’s fair enough.
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Post by Casciavit Wed Dec 21, 2022 10:53 pm

What makes Messi's WC achievement so special is that there's never been a player put under pressure to win it as much as he has. Nobody's played with the pressure he did for the national team.

Most of the time when everyone expects you and pressures you to win it, you never do. PSG and Man City know this very well.

The fact he won it in his last try makes it so special. All the previous WC winners had 4-5 world class players on the pitch. Di Maria was irrelevant until the final, so the only world class player who consistently played was Messi. The rest of the lineup played for teams like: Aston Villa, Atletico, Benfica, Spurs, Sevilla, Atletico, Benfica, Brighton, Juve, and Man City's bench striker.

However, recent years in the CL showed you don't need the best 11. I gave my reasons as to what made Argentina special, but it simply boiled down to the team having a special camaraderie where they all wanted to win for Messi. It's mainly been the same spine of players since 2019, and the coach focused on defensive stability first and foremost. Then it was a question of your goalie coming up clutch, and your attackers making the most with the few opportunities they get.

The ingredients were there then they had the luck to win the shootouts. It's funny how Martinez's save at the end is what made some doubters accept Messi's status as the GOAT, but that's football for you. It's based on fine margins, and Messi had some good fortune go his way.

I'm not sure if I'm alone in thinking this, but it really does feel like him winning the WC is like a chapter in football ending. It genuinely feels like he was the main character, where the penalty shootouts were the final scene, and him celebrating in Buenos Aires with the WC is like the scene after the end credits. Lived it, loved it. Molenation
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