World Cup 2022 Final: Argentina vs France

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Post by Casciavit Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:43 pm

The WC was filled with surprises this year, but now we've got a heavyweight match-up in the final.

Argentina vs France.

Both teams have two WC, and are looking for their third. Will France be the first team to retain the WC in 60 years? Will Argentina win their first WC in 36 years? Will Argentina get revenge on the 4-3 loss in 2018?

Messi vs Mbappe. Old Gen vs New Gen. PSG superstars clash. In Messi's final WC match will he be able to redeem the loss in 2014 and win the one trophy he's missing, and go on to cement his legacy as the GOAT? Or will Mbappe have two WC's in his CV at the age of 24?

World Cup 2022 Final: Argentina vs France Fj94MvRWYAUJ-S6?format=jpg&name=large
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Post by Found Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:53 pm

I don’t want none of this “if messi turns up then he’s the GOAT but if he ghosts we drop the standards and make him the GOAT anyway” nonsense.

I hold my GOATS to the same standard win or lose.
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Post by Casciavit Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:54 pm

Mbappe's dunked on Messi in all their meetings. It might happen again here, but one key tactical point to keep note of:

France's left side is so poor defensively. Mbappe doesn't track back, so you're left with Rabiot and Theo defending that side. Upamecano is incredibly rash, so he'll be leaving his position too. Overloading that flank, and Messi pulling Upamecano out of his position, will leave gaps for Alvarez to exploit.

France struggled with their left side dynamics a lot against Morocco, and it wasn't until Thuram was subbed on did they look more assured since Mbappe moved centrally.
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Post by Casciavit Wed Dec 14, 2022 9:59 pm

I don't see this game turning into the chaotic mess that happened in 2018. Both teams have followed a similar pattern this tournament. They take an early lead, then sit back. I think that will be key. If France scores first, then Argentina and their hot heads will leave Mbappe free on the counter.

France have been lucky to not concede more than 1 goal in the last 2 games. They look shaky defensively, but they have that Madrid-esque luck factor going for them. Even when they're down they know how to turn the heat back on again. France are my favorites for the game.
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Post by futbol_bill Wed Dec 14, 2022 10:19 pm

Third place game should be interesting as well. They tied 0-0 in group play. I lean towards Morocco based on their intense effort in Spain, Portugal and today’s game, making them the most successful African team ever.
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Post by El Gunner Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:18 am

Found wrote:I don’t want none of this “if messi turns up then he’s the GOAT but if he ghosts we drop the standards and make him the GOAT anyway” nonsense.

I hold my GOATS to the same standard win or lose.

Messi's legacy loses nothing if they lose, and in the eyes of the media spectacle he only gains that narrative of "yes, now he can be considered the outright GOAT" because the media just wants something to talk about always

to many of this generation who grew up watching him he has already cemented himself as the GOAT tho
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Post by Cruijf Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:40 am

The whole idea that somehow a 7 game tournament at age 35 determines his standing is ridiculous. If he wins it will be a nice piece of ammunition to win arguments but he's already the GOAT win or lose.

In terms of the actual game, I'm cautiously optimistic. I don't think France has faced a defence as good as Argentina's (prime Morocco maybe, but not the Morocco that played today with half the backline injured). And given that France concedes a bucketload of chances every game, you'd expect Messi/Alvarez to finish 1 or 2 at least.
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Post by sportsczy Thu Dec 15, 2022 1:45 am

We were missing Upamecano and especially Rabiot against Morocco... bringing in new players into a team dynamic at this stage of a WC was extremely difficult. Well done on Deschamps to pull it off.

Assuming both Upamecano and Rabiot are back, then France will play much better and look far more cohesive.

As far as the "Argentina want it more than France" line... get out of here with that shit dude (whoever it was on the semis thread).

It comes down a lot to the referee. To me, the ref for France v Morocco was nothing short of atrocious and allowed for murder. That's not helping the game to flow... the complete opposite. You're allowing players to continuously break the flow by fouling.

In any case, it will be a close game. I do think France will win, and my reason is this: Argentina always seems on the brink of becoming overemotional and losing control. France thrives on that kind of over-aggression. This is not a team that gets rattled or pushed around.

Crazy rumor of the day: Benzema is in full training at Real Madrid for a few days. He's still on the world cup squad (never replaced). So technically, he could return for the final as a super-sub.
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Post by sportsczy Thu Dec 15, 2022 1:53 am

And yes, we give up defense with both Mbappe and Giroud not defending... and Theo not really defending either let's be fair.  It's a lot of pressure on Rabiot, Upamecano and Tchouameni.

However, the attack is far more lethal.  You concede chances with the idea that the extra offense is more important than the issues on defense.

Speaking of not tracking back... if Messi doesn't cover on Mbappe's side, that is a HUGE problem.  Mbappe has been "contained" the past two games because he has to go through 3 players most of the time:  The forward helping the fullback with a midfielder also covering.

If France are allowed to play 2v2 with Hernandez and Mbappe + Rabiot also there, it will be very lethal (like it was against Poland).  

Deschamp's plan against teams similar to Argentina (and Argentina itself in 2018) is to attack them hard.  Only time he does that.  Interested to see if he stays with it. The reason is that he takes advantage of players like Messi's work rate, over-aggression and undisciplined CBs. Takes advantage of even numbers on the attack using France's individual player skills
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Post by Cruijf Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:21 am

My guess is Argentina will play 4-4-2 like they did against Croatia. Even though that is technically 2v2 on the French left flank, Theo will be pinned by Messi. So it will be 1v2 for Mbappe. If Theo does push forward, that will open up space for Messi.
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Post by sportsczy Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:31 am

Cruijf wrote:My guess is Argentina will play 4-4-2 like they did against Croatia. Even though that is technically 2v2 on the French left flank, Theo will be pinned by Messi. So it will be 1v2 for Mbappe. If Theo does push forward, that will open up space for Messi.

Theo will take the chance and Rabiot will cover on Messi when he does that.  Rabiot and Theo take turns attacking that side depending on the situation.  

Rabiot and Theo sometimes even both jump in... which shifts everyone defensively from right to left and Griezmann fills the defensive gap.

It's very very dynamic.  That's why having Upamecano and Rabiot out was very big for France.  They can't have this dynamic interaction without the right players and the players having played together.
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Post by BarcaLearning Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:32 am

Yea France is by far the favs and better team, its just the reality. Arg no matter how much they raise their level just have a weaker team by a distance period.

I also think this left side of France will be intriguing, will Messi be able to defend as well as being able to conserve his energy to create up front? I actually think Konate seems more level headed than Upemcano. Im still not sure why hes often on the bench at LFC n France when hes so good? Fofana was also good fill in, he doesnt have as much coverage n overall game as Rabiot but perhaps a bit safer also? De Paul has been playing RM a lot n hes a work horse so he will need to put in another triple shift obviously. Can Romero be trusted to help stop Mbappe? Definitely cant rely on old Otamendi Razz And DONT play Paredes pls, the risk is just too great. U see how many fouls Morocco had to resort to in order to stifle Mbappe, refs have let things go but u never know... Also after mentioning all this, but forget Dembele can turn it on anytime if Arg's LB cant deal with him Razz

Apart from that Arg dont have to be in a around the box as much as other teams so that means avoiding Frances powerful CBs I guess, hopefully Alvarez n the midfield n help Messi run around them giants including Tucha n co.

One thing I also hope Arg can avoid is giving away too many FKs n CKs cause the height difference would be immense like it was vs Netherlands...
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Post by Thimmy Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:06 am

Congrats to France. Finally, club football can resume Smile
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Post by Casciavit Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:13 am

Main difference between Messi and Mbappe defending is that Argentina attack and defend in a 4-4-2, while France attack in a 4-3-3 and defend in a 4-4-2. That shifting of positions on France's left side isn't smooth, so Messi will pick up the ball in those pockets of space.

I hope Upamecano starts. I think Messi will make a fool of him. Konate is much more assured.

Is Rabiot gonna be fine by Sunday?
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Post by Casciavit Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:23 am

Although in settled possession, France attack in a 3-2-5 which is the optimal way to attack against a team who defend in a fixed 4-4-2. That's why I'm curious to see if Scaloni will change his system.
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Post by El Gunner Thu Dec 15, 2022 7:13 am

sportsczy wrote:Speaking of not tracking back... if Messi doesn't cover on Mbappe's side, that is a HUGE problem. Mbappe has been "contained" the past two games because he has to go through 3 players most of the time: The forward helping the fullback with a midfielder also covering.
Messi doesn't need to track back because he plays in the free roaming position. It's De Paul who plays on that side of the midfield, so he will need to help Molina.

If they go with 3 CBs, then Romero will also help out on that side.
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Post by El Gunner Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:35 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0cUE-ePDEc

How is Tim Cahill not at least #2 here, left foot is even his weaker foot

anyway, to generate some discussion while we await for Sunday... what will be y'all's top 10 goals of the tournament so far??? or 5, if you struggle to come up with 10.
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Post by BarcaLearning Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:01 pm

Dunno why but just wanted to point out how seems many ppl still criticise France n Deschamps in general, n that they are stuck in second gear without playing good or their best, etc. It might be true in the past but I believe they've been playing the best they can pretty much. Maybe Dembele n Mbappe can perform even better but otherwise this is their level. Strange feeling that as we know many of the top teams have regressed compared with the past somewhat, but then the smaller teams n some teams like Arg have vastly improved so its not like France should beat everyone easier, although at the same time cant help but feel a bit that both France n Arg. havent really beaten a strong house team (bar England) to reach the final since so many big teams were out. I also think part of it its just that NT generally seems to lack top class strikers atm to score goals hence weakening most teams in general being unable to score goals if that makes sense.

Anyway, I really think Deschamps n France have evolved just like Arg n been playing great football, not in terms of comparatively to the past in general, but thats also football nowadays, more cautious n physical n tactical, so u cant go out to just attack all the time, if so opponents will just counter u n sucker punch. Brazil played attacking football n lapse in focus on defending allowed Croatia to equalise right at the death for example. So praise to Deschamps who has over the yrs been under constant criticism getting the balance right with a new team where the midfield completely needed to be remade.

Just random thoughts Razz
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Post by FennecFox7 Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:53 pm

I’m proud of my team. No regrets. We put it all on the line.

Interesting how there’s a lack of praise towards Morocco here (besides Cas and a couple others with their excellent posts). This is a team that made history, and the way they were playing before the World Cup, no one expected this. I’m suspecting jealousy from people who support other small countries or got beaten by us. Maybe I’m wrong, who knows.


Tactically we made a mistake by playing an injured player and relying on the 3-4-3. I like the idea but really, the players need to play how they are accustomed to. Don’t change the wheel too much.


The France game was very close. Could’ve easily been 2-2, or 3-0 France’s way or 2-1 Morocco’s way. The difference is we don’t have goalscorers. We had chances literally on the 6 yard line too. It’s on us to convert them. Nonetheless. Congrats @sports, I will be (secretly) supporting France but Messi has been absolutely on fire. He may be the difference. It’s going to be a close game. Deschamps also deserves some plaudits, he’s a great manager and it’s very rare to see managers have continued success.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Thu Dec 15, 2022 5:06 pm

Morocco is absolutely deserving of high praise, they made history and will rightfully be received as heroes back home. Hope they keep building on their success.

On to the final, I think France wins this 3 out of 5 times. We have a shot but are definitely not favored to win here. They won't give Messi enough space and I don't see them making Lovren-type mistakes to allow us to break in through other means, especially if Di Maria is not fit. I've said all along that France is out ceiling but hope to be proved wrong.

Expect Benz to score the winner.
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Post by BarcaLearning Thu Dec 15, 2022 5:07 pm

Morocco definitely has been fantastic n deserves all the accolades, big underdogs success story. Their midfield n defense, structure n overall play have been very impressive. Just like most smaller teams its just lacking the top striker to finish things off to score the vital goals.

A few of the players should be hunted by the top clubs Im sure, that no.8 is getting a lot of attention the way he control the ball n ran around many of the top oppositions he faces.
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Post by titosantill Thu Dec 15, 2022 6:36 pm

I think Argentina's got this. But that's based on messi of course. He is in a solid position, all to play for, no need to be careful or worry about knocks cos it's a final and likely his last world cup.

If I'm him I take as much risks as I can, and if Argentina pull it off, complete my season with psg and retire (I don't know his contract situation or how many years he has left). That will be the ultimate ending to a career Ala Pele.

Make them beg you to stay rather than give off that you have overstayed your welcome feeling.
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Post by FennecFox7 Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:03 pm

You’re talking about ounahi @BL. I believe Leicester is interested. He’s a great player, very athletic and plays the box to box role well.

Appreciate the love guys. We still have a bronze medal to earn. I believe Croatia is a good match up for us. We can overrun their midfield physically and easily stifle them, but I wonder if they will adjust accordingly
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Post by El Gunner Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:25 pm

always feel the 3rd place game is such a pity party... couldn't imagine getting up for it as a player personally
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