UEFA Champions League | Shakhtar Donetsk vs Real Madrid [Away]

Thimmy wrote:

Perucho21 wrote:I'm done brothers. When we don't make the UCL knockouts Zidanes contract must be terminated as well as the contracts of every single beta on this team

I’ve hardly watched any of our matches since this season started, so I’m in no position to judge Zidane’s tactics or general influence at the moment. I don’t know what he does behind the scenes, anyway. I wrote so many rants to challenge the seemingly popular opinion on here that bringing Zidane back would fix our piling personnel issues.

I really don’t think sacking our manager again would fix any of our persistent problems - because they’ve stayed the same since he returned.

Our youngsters can compliment the team with their respective talents while they hopefully develop into future starters with more qualities to bring to the table, but they’re unlikely to take on the burden of actually carrying this team. They shouldn’t be expected to, either. We’re halting their development by having them play with the uninspired seniors who are supposed to ease them into becoming future starters.

Underperforming seniors, youngsters with no clear sense of direction in the team. Recipe for failure.

My problem with Zidane is that he literally cannot think of any other tactic other than crossing over and over again to non existent Aerial threats, and he is one of the all time greats that has played alongside some of the greatest teams this sport ever had. And all he can think of is cross cross cross and more crosses?

I get what you’re saying, but we don’t have a single, reliable goal threat at the moment. Our forwards can’t do it on a regular basis, and neither can our midfield. Based on the highlights I’ve watched, it looks like Ødegaard has completely lost the confidence he had in his own shooting ability back at Herenveen, and I know it’s rare for our other midfielders to even attempt shots from outside the box.

Until we can sort out our squad issues, I don’t think yet another change of managers will do us any good. Put together a team of players who can score, provide chances, as well as defend, and I don’t care if we have a bucket for our coach. We might just be the most attractive destination in football for any ambitious manager. I can’t imagine that will ever be a problem.

Destabilizing the team by sacking the manager, will likely only add to our problems. I don’t believe that should be our first priority, as I don’t recognize it as our primary issue.

Honestly, the thought of Zidane leaving/getting let go isn't new to me. I've felt this back in 2018 so it isn't alien thoughts. This, however, feels different.

The team is badly coached. I could see it, you could see it, those guys that read the forum and don't sign up know it and most importantly, other managers know it. You don't get outclass by Shakhtar twice because of bad luck. This is down to the team being absolutely unprepared for a well drilled side because we aren't well drilled.

And these aren't anomalies either. We've seen this all of this season so far with various teams. Individual errors (fucking Varane) are things no manager can control but what is very much within their control is how a team plays and from the jump, Madrid lack ANY sort of actual coherent football besides crossing. Which makes no fucking sense as we do not have the following:

Good crossers, a proper box presence (Benzema is everything but a CF), good wingers.

What I am trying to say is this team cannot be anymore destabilized as it is now. I won't say Zidane Out as I genuinely have way too much love for the man but I really wouldn't mind Poch at the moment. Grass looking a bit greener from here imo.

In an ideal world, I wouldn’t want neither Zidane, nor Pochettino, personally. But that’s beside the point. If we’re going to challenge for anything, we need to acquire players that are capable of doing it. Once we’ve done that, only then would it be an appropriate time to consider who’s managing the team. Burning through managers never did us any favors in the past. Taking advantage of talented players at the peak of their powers did.

I think it’s worth mentioning that Tottenham also played like shit on a stick during the end of Pochettino’s reign. I like his brand of football, but I don’t see him as an ideal manager for us. As far as I’m concerned, his commonly praised, man management genius is largely a myth.

Managers can make a difference, but they’re only as good as their teams are. I’ll never understand why, regardless of which club it is, the manager always seems to be the one who gets the majority of credit, as well as the blame, based on how their team performs. It may be the manager’s responsibility to make his team perform, but a team full of winners can just as well carry an incompetent or mediocre manager.

I agree with Thimmy. Zidane has his problems but even if you fired him and hired someone else, the new manager would struggle as well with this squad.

This is the same manager that won us three CLs in a row. The only difference between then and now is that back then he had the greatest goalscorer of this generation to bail him out. Now, he has nobody.

We have to make sure we have a strong, competitive squad first before thinking about who should be in the dugouts. Zidane has absolutely no excuse for losing to this Shakhtar, but we have also to be honest with ourselves and admit that we have a weak, very weak squad right now. And until we haven't fixed this problem, even if you brought Sir Alex out of retirement and hired Sacchi as his assistant, they would only be able to take you so far before kicking open your office door and telling you: "Your attack sucks! Give me another one!".

You know, I think we are underestimating the effect good coaching has on a team and underestimating how good these guys are.

We aren't talking about 3rd division footballers here. These guys can play football, like genuinely play and for reasons I cannot understand, Zidane isn't actually utilising what he has properly (or maybe he simply cannot).

Poch's brand of football is absolutely dull but it has purpose and there is thought. Pep, Klopp, Gasperini, Manchin, shit, even the likes Sarri and Conte all have their players play in a specific structure and with a certain thought process depending on the players they have.

We are crossing to Benzema and using Asensio and Rodrygo as pure wingers with the hope of something happening. I really rather the dull stuff, the Pep stuff or even the Sarri stuff to be honest.|

Not Conte though, fuck that guy.

Underestimating how good who is? In our golden days, Modric could play the full 90 minutes of every match when he wasn’t injured, and he was great. This version of Modric has lost pace, gets tired much sooner, and has shown heavily declined consistency for quite some time now.

I don’t know what Varane’s issues are, but I’d imagine Zidane would be more capable of addressing his issues than any of the other managers you mentioned would.

Marcelo’s been going through a transformation that’s similar to that of Modric. What else do we have? A lot of kids in their late teens, early twenties who are still learning the local language. Are they supposed to be drilled to carry us to victory? The talent may be there, but they’re not finished products and they are being thrown into the fire.

I don’t know what kind of game plan or system Zidane would prefer to use, but I would assume it included a solid defense and at least one forward who’s known for scoring goals reliably. Either way, our forward acquisitions and whatever plan we may have had for integrating them into the team, has been a massive failure.

«If you’re good enough, you’re old enough» doesn’t quite apply to this team, because our offense consists of midfielders who aren’t clinical goalscorers, the spine of our defense seems to be Ramos, who’s known for frequently and intentionally being out of position, and then there’s our midfield... which is our attack. Or is it the other way around?   Brilliant team composition!

I dare say there isnt one problem, and as such not one solution. The team is spent, I've felt the team has been spent for a couple of years now, but somehow we've been managing to squeeze out some juice. Flo and the scouts have to start planning a move into the new era and start phasing out the old guard. My fear is losing revenue that comes with the ucl if we dont qualify. I dont even want to think of europa at all

TitoI believe they had thought they had a solid plan for this year, especially considering the financial impact on income for this season.

The plan was get rid of kids that won’t the first team plus players not counted on (Bale and James) and thus recouping some of lost income.

Give the youth talent plenty of opportunities to see if they can develop and belong on team let alone their role. And loan out the few remaining talents to develop (Ceballos, Reguilion, Brahim, Kubo and Reiner) - good news is the first three are doing well, however latter two are not getting the playing time club wanted)

give last year purchases (Hazard, Mendy, Militao) plus Asensio opportunities to prove themselves.

Count on veterans to ease the kids into their roles on the team.

And then use the post covid (and recovered financial situation) to buy players for holes in lineup.

However,  a lot has gone wrong with that plan in addition to not having a training camp / exhibition games and various injuries & covid required isolation.

- kids are struggling, pretty well all of them.

- only one of last years purchases / Asensio doing ok is Mendy!

- most of veterans are also struggling and certainly not helping youngsters. The only ones that seem to holding up are Ramos, Courtois, Benzema plus the two squad players Lucas and Nacho.

So the question i ask is, is the problem, the recruitment, the players or coaching? With this many players not performing, I say it’s the coaching! I’m not suggesting a coaching change as it won’t happen nor work, but I do hope Zidane can look at the bigger overall picture and make some adjustments.

tbh nothing was wrong with the plan this year. i think the club did well in the summer, considering the loss of revenue with covid; u dont appeal to ure players to take a cut and then spend. i have no problem with our summer.

our issues are not due to what we did or didnt do last summer. we hade to be resilient and that's fine. i think my issue is with some of the penny wise pound foolish course of action we've taken (excluding last summer ofcourse). it seems like we havent spent money, but we've spent a lot, just not on stellar products. we need to be careful with that

my fear is that the club may just be thinking of not doing anything come next summer or go on and spend 50 million on a no-name youngster. point is we need to tough it out, but the club should really be advocating passing of the baton regardless of how the season turns out.

i'd rather we make some money from selling older players than letting them all retire here and not getting anything from it

What are your opinions on Alaba as a Real Madrid players.

Given that Varane is out of form and Ramos is nearing the end of his prime.

Do you guys thinks a center back like Alaba can complement Varane or even be Ramos' partner?

Is Skriniar a better option?

I wouldn't mind having him with us. He's very versatile and can play CB, LB and even CMD at times.

But I remember reading not too long ago that Madrid weren't planning on getting him after his renewal talks with Bayern broke down because his wage demands were too much for the club.

Here it is:

Marca wrote:The issue with bringing in the 28-year-old is that he wants a salary around 20 million euros gross per year. His agent, Pini Zahavi, like his father, is demanding a figure that would make up for the fact that no transfer fee would be paid to Bayern.

[Source]

I don't believe he'll leave Bayern though because he has become an undisputed starter and partner for Boeteng under Flick. Can't imagine the Bayern board letting him leave and disruptng Flick's system like that.

The team is coached fine.  Nothing has changed from last season in terms of coaching.  The issues are actually fairly simple to me:

-  We're an older and injury prone team at certain positions.  So not having a break between the end of last season and the start of this one impacts us more than younger ones.  
-  Most all of the so-called elite teams have started poorly.  Look at PSG, Liverpool, City, Juventus, Barca, etc.  This isn't a unique thing to Madrid.
-  We've literally addressed none of our glaring issues since CR has left several years ago... nothing.  Winning La Liga was miraculous imo.  
-  Bad performances by the likes of Varane, Casemiro, Carvajal, Hazard, Casemiro and Marcelo.  That's a lot of our core.

We cannot play a 4/3/3 or 4-5-1. We need to field two strikers. At this point a midfielder has to be dropped. It’s not like our midfield plays any sort of good defense anyways..

My vote is for kroos. Dude is useless in possession and takes zero risks. Also doesn’t play good defense. Modric needs to be rotated. Just a flat classic 4-4-2 with rodrygo and ode on the wings. Fede will be back soon so he can play in the pivot with case. Benz and jovic up top or Mariano

sportsczy wrote:The team is coached fine.  Nothing has changed from last season in terms of coaching.  The issues are actually fairly simple to me:

-  We're an older and injury prone team at certain positions.  So not having a break between the end of last season and the start of this one impacts us more than younger ones.  
-  Most all of the so-called elite teams have started poorly.  Look at PSG, Liverpool, City, Juventus, Barca, etc.  This isn't a unique thing to Madrid.
-  We've literally addressed none of our glaring issues since CR has left several years ago... nothing.  Winning La Liga was miraculous imo.  
-  Bad performances by the likes of Varane, Casemiro, Carvajal, Hazard, Casemiro and Marcelo.  That's a lot of our core.

I agree to a certain extent, but I’m surprised to see Carvajal on the list as he has hardly played. Did he have bad performances off the pitch? And why did you exclude Modric, Kroos and Isco, not to mention Casemiro must have been really bad as he’s listed twice!

sportsczy wrote:The team is coached fine.  Nothing has changed from last season in terms of coaching.  The issues are actually fairly simple to me:

-  We're an older and injury prone team at certain positions.  So not having a break between the end of last season and the start of this one impacts us more than younger ones.  
-  Most all of the so-called elite teams have started poorly.  Look at PSG, Liverpool, City, Juventus, Barca, etc.  This isn't a unique thing to Madrid.
-  We've literally addressed none of our glaring issues since CR has left several years ago... nothing.  Winning La Liga was miraculous imo.  
-  Bad performances by the likes of Varane, Casemiro, Carvajal, Hazard, Casemiro and Marcelo.  That's a lot of our core.

I think Zidane was the ideal coach for Madrid back when the team was elite and our core players were in their prime but not so much now. Reason being, Zidane is a fantastic man manager with limited coaching abilities. So if you give him a team of polished world beaters, he'll get results because he commands respect (being a former legend of the game) and the players are so talented that they won't have to rely solely on his coaching tactics to win, they'll also use their individual brilliance.

However, if you give him a weak team, he will not be successful with them because every time his tactical plan fails them, they won't know what to do. Also, he's not really that great at building a team from the ground up as we have already seen with the €300m he so unwisely spent.

Having said that, I still maintain that the manager is not the main problem, our team is simply not good enough anymore. And it's all down to a failed transfer policy that Florentino has adopted and stubbornly sticking to.

FennecFox7 wrote:We cannot play a 4/3/3 or 4-5-1. We need to field two strikers. At this point a midfielder has to be dropped. It’s not like our midfield plays any sort of good defense anyways..

My vote is for kroos. Dude is useless in possession and takes zero risks. Also doesn’t play good defense. Modric needs to be rotated. Just a flat classic 4-4-2 with rodrygo and ode on the wings. Fede will be back soon so he can play in the pivot with case. Benz and jovic up top or Mariano

Kroos useless in possession??!

This sentence doesn't make any sense.

I agree with the two strikers tho. In the current system with Benzema, he need a striker partner. The is no one in the box most times

What does Kroos do right now. Explain that to me please. He is basically a passenger in the midfield and gets a free pass because of his composure on the ball. He is not adventurous with his passing and it seems that his shooting has deserted him. His decision making in the final third cost us when he didn’t pass to mariano. The most he does is switch the play to the other wing. The CF is basically starved of the ball in dangerous areas because Kroos, asensio and our wingers don’t rotate the ball in dangerous positions. So we become easy to defend against. And he is a calamity waiting to happen defensively which exposes varane and nacho every game. Bench please

Zidane is pragmatic but stubborn. If something shows signs of failing he will not stick to it. We were 0-0 in the game against Betis and schooled Betis, they had a lucky header from Mandi but that was it, we opened them up time and time again, it should’ve been 6-2 end of the game. Both benzema and jovic hold the ball up well, benzema now plays defense and Mariano is excellent defensively, and Mariano can run into channels. So what does zizou do, surprise, he ditches the formation. We have good forwards and Zz is sticking with his boys and average midfielders and wingers.

The Demon of Carthage wrote:
I don't believe he'll leave Bayern though because he has become an undisputed starter and partner for Boeteng under Flick. Can't imagine the Bayern board letting him leave and disruptng Flick's system like that.

Alaba has been an undisputed starter since 9 years. That's not the issue. The issue is quite apparently that he's not willing to sign a new contract for what we're offering, and the board is not willing to offer him any more, now.
It's gotten surprisingly ugly, with his father, his new agent, Hoeness and president Hainer all making public statements, and Alaba claiming he was hurt when the club tried to use him as bargaining chip in the Sané transfer, which is pretty damning if true.
I say surprisingly because Alaba is and remains a beloved pillar of the team, fan favourite and leading player, and the personal relationship between him, the rest of the team and the club remains very good as far as I can see.

Losing such a player is never good, it's very bad actually; even if we arguably have 2 othre top players now on what used to be his position.
I haven't quite resigned myself that he's really not extending but the facts are pretty blatant and in 4 weeks he will be able to sign for another club..

The last statement is pretty interesting, because yes, you would imagine that but here were are with the board by all accounts (reports that Boateng will not be offered a new contract either) with open eyes getting rid of BOTH starting CBs of the treble team, which is pretty unbelievable and crazy if you look at it without context.

FennecFox7 wrote:What does Kroos do right now. Explain that to me please. He is basically a passenger in the midfield and gets a free pass because of his composure on the ball. He is not adventurous with his passing and it seems that his shooting has deserted him. His decision making in the final third cost us when he didn’t pass to mariano. The most he does is switch the play to the other wing. The CF is basically starved of the ball in dangerous areas because Kroos, asensio and our wingers don’t rotate the ball in dangerous positions. So we become easy to defend against. And he is a calamity waiting to happen defensively which exposes varane and nacho every game. Bench please

Zidane is pragmatic but stubborn. If something shows signs of failing he will not stick to it. We were 0-0 in the game against Betis and schooled Betis, they had a lucky header from Mandi but that was it, we opened them up time and time again, it should’ve been 6-2 end of the game. Both benzema and jovic hold the ball up well, benzema now plays defense and Mariano is excellent defensively, and Mariano can run into channels. So what does zizou do, surprise, he ditches the formation. We have good forwards and Zz is sticking with his boys and average midfielders and wingers.

Zidane wants midfield and flank control.  Those are the pillars of his style of play.  If Kroos and Modric aren't good enough anymore...  we'll need to find better midfielders.  But you won't see a 2 man midfield.

I could see him experimenting with a 2 man mid as a main tactic IF our back 4 and DM were playing well.  They're not.  In fact, Casemiro and Varane have been mostly very poor to start the season.  So, in his mind (and I can't disagree), the last thing you want is to open up space in front of a middle defense that isn't doing well.

We have to stop leaking goals. That's priority #1. Then we can focus on improving the scoring.

Sports unlike many people, I like his tactics and see what he’s trying to do. The reason I want a 2 man midfield is because the midfield doesn’t even play good defense. You say the midfield needs to protect the defense. I agree, but we need to play a low block. We are playing a high press without the personnel for it. Zidanes tactics work great with athleticism, which we need badly. This is why valverde, CR, modric from back then, carva all play well. Even LV with his stamina and speed. We need athletes badly, which is why we should’ve kept regui and hakimi. Even brahim diaz who has good pace. Ditch the slow midfielders, rotate modric who actually has been good, and start from scratch with a low block.

We need to score. This is our issue. Our defense bailed us out the whole time last year. They are understandably discouraged. Also, when mendy plays consistently our defense is quite solid. Marcelo is the problem there. It’ll fix itself imo

I want to see Vini at LM/LCM badly.. he plays well there. He is a good player being played out of position. He doesn’t have the killer instinct to play on the wing but he actually holds possession quite well and passes well.. and actually plays defense. just keep him from the final third.

This is why I want mariano to start with Benz a couple times.. yes he has his issues, trust me I see it lol. But he plays good defense and I was impressed to see him adapt and drop back into the midfield despite having inferior talent.. and he scores which we can’t do for shit right now. Of course he’s injured though lol.

I agree. We're very average in midfield. Old, slow and, other than Modric, technically limited. Casemiro's form is really surprising to me.

We need... Casemiro, Valverde and another B2B who is either a physical beast or a technical wiz. People want to say Odegaard; but i'd rather he play like David Silva did but from the right. He's a gifted passer and should focus on creating, not defending.

Pogba is going to be available for cheap imo this coming summer. It's his last contract year in 2022. We can likely get him for 60-70 mil, which is a bargain these days.

Camavinga too... we get Pogba and Camavinga while moving Modric out... suddenly, we have very balanced mid. I'd like us to rotate 5 with Pogba, Camavinga, Valverde, Kroos and Casemiro. We can even push Pogba, Camavinga and Valverde in an attacking role if we decide to play a 442 at times.