Does Zidane have a problem with playing kids?

I get where you're coming from, to some extent. Of course, I want to believe that the club know what they're doing. These aren't a bunch of amateurs. Or so I like to think. Ironically, I think you're failing to see the bigger picture, though. And whatever the club's intention may have been initially, it's not working out. I imagine they're trying to figure out how to rectify that strategy, as we speak.

We won the league, but I don't think that should paper over the obvious cracks we've been seeing in recent years. Odegaard leaving on loan might not have any substantial consequences either, but it's just the most recent example of how poorly we're handling this transfer strategy of scouting, attracting and developing young prospects over signing established names.

The strategy is interesting, and I think modern football has shown an increasing trend of scouting young, lesser known prospects as a more risky, but potentially more rewarding strategy than competing with everyone else for top players in their prime. It's benefiting the clubs who succeed at it, but it's not something that's traditionally benefited us.

We're not Dortmund. You'll probably never see us sign someone like Jude Bellingham or Gio Reyna, and immediately give them a nod of confidence from the coach. Both players are teenagers, and probably wouldn't have been good enough to play at Real Madrid based on their current quality, but they've improved exponentially from being able to play regularly. Not only does it build confidence, experience and momentum, but it's the best way to develop and prepare them for the future. This approach is much more relevant to today's football, than it's been in the past, and so I have some understanding of why the club opted to follow it. However, we seem to largely ignore the development part, which I believe is the key to making such a strategy successful.

The likes of Van Dijk, Son, Mane.. I wouldn't be surprised if some members of GL claim that such players were already household names at the time of being purchased by a top club, but they all showed a ton of potential early in their careers, and with the exception of VVD, they were bought for relatively low sums.

But there needs to be a system in place for these players to develop under optimal conditions. The way I see it, there's a very clear issue in how we approach nurturing and easing these players into the team. We've introduced them to first
team action prematurely, only to crush their confidence by not giving them time to find momentum. This is especially problematic when we pull back players from clubs where they were excelling and developing smoothly. It doesn't benefit anyone.

You're very quick to boil the reasoning behind these actions down to all of these players not being good enough, and I'd maybe entertain that train of thought if I thought they were given a fair chance, particularly if we take their age into consideration. And that's the whole point, isn't it? Take young, talented players, and nurture them into the best, finished product they can be. That's not what we've been doing, at all.

Cristiano Ronaldo slotted right into our team when he arrived as a 23 year old. We shouldn't hold similar standards up to our more recent signings, who are not only younger than he was, but haven't benefited from the process he went through before he became a regular starter at United.

Why do we discuss these things, although we have no impact on what actually happens? For the same reason that you like to talk about transfer targets that the club may not even have any interest in. We're just voicing our opinions.

Yeah, I don't think anyone had predicted that Hazard would be this poor for us. Then again, it's another reason why I sometimes wonder what our scouting department are thinking these days. Hazard has a history of being injured and inconsistent. He made up for it by being unplayable when fit and performing in spurts at a time. Even if we assume that he'd perform up to his usual standard for us, I never saw his profile of player as the type we needed to prioritize.

Would it have solved our issues if he was performing? I don't know who's been shouldering our goalscoring duties this season, but I would imagine that responsibility is still up in the air. Hazard has never been some ruthless goalscorer. The goal statistics speak in his favor, but ruthless is not the right way to explain his way of going about scoring goals on a regular basis. I think that was evident when he complained about having to play as a cf at Chelsea.

[quote]Frankly we still have the core of a team that makes a lot of sense, but the results are not there, that’s just football to me./quote]

I can't agree with that. The result went our way as recently as last season, as you were quick to point out. I'm of the opposite opinion. I don't think we should take that league win as a sign that we don't have substantial issues that need to be addressed. I'm obviously not saying that we should take such trophies and successes for granted, but the stars really aligned for us after the Covid break, and I don't expect it to do the same if we're still messing around with an incredibly flawed youth transfer strategy, a couple of years down the road.

iirc i was against signing hazard. i've always stated i preferred willian over him. actually i was against signing any player from chelsea at the time including thibu.

we cant get mad at not signing anyone last summer, for obvious reasons. everyone brings good points; on both sides of the fence. my hope is that there is a plan in play, not just in personnel but even in things like formations. let's see how this goes

Thimmy with the mother of all posts...

Let me preface my answer by saying that no club for the past 100 years or so has been successful every single season. Sports in general, football is no exception, is all about cycles. If you accept that, then you accept that it doesn’t matter how clever you think you may be with your management, you will always fail at some point. That is a certainty. The difference is obviously how much money you have and how quickly you can pivot from a down cycle into a positive one.

So we had a positive winning cycle and this is the down cycle. We are simply in a period of transition and that’s ok. The club tried a policy with more or less success. We saw the more last season by winning la liga and at the start of this one, with Odegaard coming back, Valverde, Hazard, Vinicius growing etc... most were hopeful the more will continue (for my part at least). It didn’t, and that’s the less. It it’s always been clear to me that the club was waiting to start a new cycle and they were just weathering this transition.

For the record the reasons why we are not playing well are plenty, it would take a post double that size to go into all of them. Zidane has a fault, the players have a fault, the club has a fault. Many here are choosing to say that it’s mainly the club and Zidane. My position is simply that it’s shared and I am not choosing to levy more blame on one of those parties than the other.

Mr Nick09 wrote:Thimmy with the mother of all posts...

Sports in general, football is no exception, is all about cycles. If you accept that, then you accept that it doesn’t matter how clever you think you may be with your management, you will always fail at some point. That is a certainty. The difference is obviously how much money you have and how quickly you can pivot from a down cycle into a positive one.

Well, if you want a short answer, you could've just as well phrased that as the difference being how much money you have, as well as how you spend it. We're not spending it efficiently. That certainly happens in football. Just look at Barcelona.

The problem isn't that we're closer to the opposite end of a successful cycle, but that our first substantial change in transfer strategy in a very long time, is already off to a miserable start. Hazard may have been the biggest transfer flop of the last few years, but I see him as a deviation from that strategy, and not the main cause for concern.

Efficiency when spending money is relative in football, to a certain extent, there are just too many factors that come into play. You have clubs that spend a lot and have success, others spend a lot and don’t have the same amount of success, some completely flop. Some clubs don’t spend at all and hit the payload like Liverpool. You think Liverpool smart scouting will continue to be as productive as it’s been? No, they will hit a down cycle and try a few clever signings that will completely flop and their fans will be like “you can’t find a Salah, all the time, sign a Galactico”.

What I think matters is having good assets that you can flip without losing too much value. I am not proud of speaking about players in this way but that’s how it is. Right now we have a lot of young assets who retain good market value and reputation, in a way that we can sell some and switch our model.

Again, I only seek to understand what we are doing. I respect the model, the logic and the attempt of grooming young players in a market that was more and more in inflation. I consider the results to be mixed, mainly because we won La liga last season. Do Inlove some of the talents we have been signing? No. Would another coach than Zidane done more with the talent we had? Maybe yes maybe no, specially after seeing the pressure chew up Solari and Lope.

I said we still have the frame of a quality team because of Ramos, Mendy, Varane, Courtois, Kroos and Benzema.   6 out of 11, you make 3 key signings with the other players we have and you can launch the team in a new direction. As far as signings we have always tried to sign galacticos when market allow, this is not changing.

That “quality” list of 6 has 4 over 30 and one approaching that mystic age! That’s not sustainable to a rebuilding team.

You are so easily dismissing Thimmy’s arguments of what’s wrong and the obvious fact that literally none of over twenty talented youth signed in past few years are making it.
You also don’t want to put any fault on Zidane , yet in addition to not playing these kids, he is the one who decided to bring Odegaard, Odriozola back (prematurely) and to sign Jovic.

You have mentioned winning la liga last season as a worthy achievement. I would like to point out how Zidane accomplished that feat as I opined last July.

futbol_bill wrote:Well I for one can admit I was wrong.

I think the biggest surprises for me this season were (in order of biggest impact)

1. Coronavirus
2. Zidane resurrecting the old guard.
3. Zidane developing and using youth on squad.
4. Zidane developing a rock solid defense with essentially only 6 defenders plus Casemiro and rest of midfielders playing good team defense.
5. Zidane playing most of squad and altering formation depending upon who is playing.
6. Ramos having his best season ever.
7. Benzema having probably his best season at Madrid.
8. Courtois becoming the GK we needed.
9. Casemiro
10. And lastly, the emergence of Valverde, another case of me admitting I was wrong.

Where is that Zidane? That Zidane was doing all of the things several of us are saying he should do, especially points 2 and 6. If that Zidane was managing this season, we wouldn’t be having this debate!

1) I am not dismissing any of Thimmy’s arguments lol, on the contrary I agree with all his points, but I am choosing to look at our situation from a different point of view. This is the point of having conversations.

2) to your point about age. We are in a transition, yet that doesn’t mean that our team and players are absolutely inept. I gave you a list of names of players that are still word class, no matter how you want to look at it today, they are elite. They allow you to be competitive while you sort out who is “next”. There is nothing wrong with being over 30, specially when we live in an age whether modern science and training allow players to have longer carriers providing they are professional enough about it.

3) I dislike Zidane as a coach as much as anyone in this forum, the idea that I don’t think he is at partly at fault for recent results is laughable. But I am also considering what he has won, therefore it’s not as simple as saying Zidane needs to leave and all will be better. He has pluses and minuses to his resume and for now the pluses outweigh the minuses. If the conversation is going to be about how Zidane sucks because he is not playing Odegaard, I sure won’t side with the player here lol. One has served the club well, one has done nothing, and that’s all there is to it.

3) I love how you quote yourself as if you published a list of facts agreed upon by a court in Geneva or something. What makes you think I agree with those and I should refer to those as facts? I respect your opinion, but the idea that some players play good independent of Zidane but then when some play poorly it’s because of Zidane is absolutely ridiculously. Everyone in the team has had an opportunity to play under him, those who have done well kept playing, those who haven’t played less. As a coach he has the right to favour certain players, but he is also not going to jeopardize his job by playing kids that are not ready because it gives him a better reputation on here.

4) Accountability needs to come from all parts, players, the coaching staff and the club direction. In this specific case I don’t think one party is more at fault than the rest. Reading posts here it’s clear the blame is being put on Perez and then Zidane. My questions, why are you so intent on criticizing the club and the coach when you see we are in a transition, we just won la liga and we are still trying to figure out who will form the next generation of a CL run. I suspect it’s because I have already accepted these bad results were almost certain to happen, while some still expect us to win the CL. But don’t get me wrong my blood still boils when I see us loose to some 3rd division team or we get slapped by some poverty teams in CL.

Fair enough Nick. I accept your viewpoint. Just one minor misstatement in your post. I never presented that list as fact, as i said above i had pointed that list as my opinion last July!

I don't understand what Madrid are doing!?!

Extend the contract of a 35 year old. Sell a 22 year old.

This team hasn't played well since they beat Atletico Madrid. But Zidane continues to play the same system with the same players.

Something else is going in Madrid, there has to be. These decisions are becoming absurd.

I guess Modric, Ramos, Marcelo and Benzema are going to stay Madrid forever.

According to ABC, Zidane and Bettoni believe that Lucas can be the team’s 6th midfielder. No joke.

What happened to Isco leaving? It sounded like a sure thing plus initiated by the player. End of winter market rapidly approaching and no news / rumors at all.

With exits of Jovic and Odegaard, squad number is now 22 (23 if you count practice keeper)

It's better for isco to leave in the summer than in jan. Theres time for him to negotiate wages and more options to find a team. I think the club would want to continue with him to see the season out in case of any injuries in the midfield.