The Pogba War | Chapter II

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Post by El Gunner Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:28 pm

he has Kante and Griezmann at France

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Post by Kaladin Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:40 pm

I have to wonder sometimes how much is this due to United's rigid 4-2-3-1, its almost sacrilegious.

When was the last time they played a different formation? Can't remember
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Post by Hapless_Hans Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:37 pm

Pogba has let Manchester United down, not the other way round. He's been poor far too often. Really poor, giving the ball away recklessly, making poor passes, costing his team dearly, making shit decisions, taking shots he sohuldn't take.
He deserves nothing, he's earned the right to nothing.
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Post by El Gunner Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:09 am

if you are really that talented as some people claim you are, it shouldn't take the most common modern day formation to throw you off your game. You apply yourself, and you adjust as best you can! Pogba has failed in that regard.
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Post by Perucho21 Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:16 am

We need a creative mid, I think Pogba would work well with Casemiro and Fede. Camavinga as the main rotation player. Blanco as the backup
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Post by Nishankly Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:17 am

Hope Real gets Pogba and they spend a load on him and make him one of the top earners :bow:
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Post by Perucho21 Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:23 am

Wont be a top earner but we will have the funds once Bale, Isco leave for free and Liverpool pay us 45 million for Marco Asensio
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Post by adun101 Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:26 am

sportsczy wrote:
BarcaLearning wrote:No Idea but whats the chances of Pogba going back to France PSG? Razz Wouldnt mind him linking with MNM if they all manage to stay Razz

PSG or Madrid.  Those are the two.  Juve can't pay him.

They can if they make the CL, but they shouldn't. He'll be 29(?) and he has shown that he needs structure to perform at his potential, but Juve are a mess right now. Plus, if they don't make the CL, why would he want to come here

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BarcaLearning wrote:Pls let it be PSG... Real have dominated our MF for long enough in the last few years Razz
Pogba is incapable of dominating a midfield, his cock only gets hard when he has two really good midfielder around him


Why do people keep repeating this? His best season was after Pirlo and Vidal left, his midfield partner was Sturaro and behind him was Marchisio or that Brazilian who played for Lazio, neither of them having played that role before
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Post by sportsczy Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:33 am

El Gunner wrote:he has Kante and Griezmann at France

Kante and Tchouemani are the key.  He loses stamina when Rabiot and Tollisso played the holding mid role because he had to do too much.  

You basically need a reliable horse behind him.  Also, you NEED a 3 man midfield.  He's a disaster in a 4231 unless you have someone like Griezmann that defends his ass off.  

Just understand what you have.  It's easy to think he can do anything because of his skillset...  but his instincts are bad for those other roles.  He gets caught in no man's land where he wants to dribble, but it's a dangerous area... so he ends up making mistakes.
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Post by El Gunner Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:46 am

@adun101 so you mean to tell me Marchisio was a scrub?

as far as i remember most of his best years at Juve came when he had a combination of either Pirlo, Marchisio or Vidal next around him in the field. People bring it up because it is the God's truth! Look at France too. Don't kid yourself into thinking Pogba can carry a midfield with just decent players beside him, you will just be disappointed.
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Post by sportsczy Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:50 am

Btw, I'm saying Pogba has very glaring weaknesses... but also great strengths. Play him to his strengths ffs or don't play him at all.

Last comment: He's very sensitive and needs to feel loved. Just how he is. So you have to manage him without offending him, if that makes sense. Doesn't mean you can't be hard... but you need both the carrot and the stick and the same time.
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Post by sportsczy Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:54 am

He can carry the creative load... look at the World Cup and the most recent nation's league. Even this past Euro. He is the one that triggers danger and creates space for the France forwards either via pass or dribbling.

I would say he's been the best player for France in all 3 of those tournaments.
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Post by sportsczy Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:09 am

352 or 433 are great for Pogba. Especially the 352, which France plays now.
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Post by adun101 Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:23 am

El Gunner wrote: @adun101 so you mean to tell me Marchisio was a scrub?

as far as i remember most of his best years at Juve came when he had a combination of either Pirlo, Marchisio or Vidal next around him in the field. People bring it up because it is the God's truth! Look at France too. Don't kid yourself into thinking Pogba can carry a midfield with just decent players beside him, you will just be disappointed.


Well, you're remembering wrong. Yes, he played well with Pirlo and Vidal, but he took it to the next level after they left. No, Marchisio wasn't a scrub, he was actually very good, bu he wasn't some phenomenon and that year he played a new role, he was ion front of the defense

Here's Pogba's 2016. It's actually only 28 minutes or so, it repeats after that.

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Post by sportsczy Fri Oct 29, 2021 5:21 pm

People really don't understand or appreciate how good he is.  I'm telling you, he RUNS France's midfield.  Runs it.  When he doesn't play, the team is ok but loses a lot.  You're seeing things wrong here too.

The big thing is that he's allowed to be free offensively.  Yes, he has defensive responsibilities.  But they are in the middle of the park and not all the way to the corner flag.  It's very well defined so he doesn't burn himself out (which he has a tendency to do).  That's the extent of it.  Deschamps wants him to conserve as much energy as possible to launch the transition from defense to offense and help create for the front 3.  His mid to long-range passing is second to none in the world.  His running with the ball through the midfield is second to none in the world.  These are his main qualities.  If you have expectations of him being world-class, then you need to emphasize his world-class attributes.  He can't be world-class in things he is not world-class in.
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Post by FennecFox7 Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:16 pm

Thank you sports, this is what I’ve been huffing and puffing about. I see shades of zizou when I see pogba play.. VERY similar styles and weaknesses. He has had multiple managers at club level try to force him to be a DM.. he’s a classic 10 and has the quality to change a game, so you work around him. He’s not a b2b or dm because he doesn’t run like Fred for 90 minutes or isn’t astute defensively.. which is fine! Let him have offensive freedom, he’s a technician and a creative player.
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Post by futbol_bill Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:37 pm

I recall both Sports and Nick saying he was a B2B! I believe most of the criticism is coming from the expectations based mainly on his price tag, both transfer price and salary. You guys keep pointing out his excellent play and his proper use, but you don’t talk about his inconsistency, other than excuses. For his price tag, he hasn’t measured up to expectations.
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Post by Casciavit Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:42 pm

My issue with top level signings is that top clubs genuinely have a FIFA approach to signing players.

They sign players based on positional need or name value rather than stylistic or complimentary fit. A good player doesn’t necessarily mean a good signing.

If you buy a player for 100M because his performances came under a specific context why wouldn’t you try to recreate those conditions? There’s a reason if you look at the top 50 most expensive transfers ever, 25 of them are flops.

Griezmann flopping at Barca was so obvious. Oh Neymar left? Let’s buy another world class attacking player to replace him. He should be able to adapt and become an outlet on the left too.

Yeah because a slow left footed player who isn’t a winger, but is a 9.5 will suddenly become a 1v1 pacey inside forward.

Milan had the same issue for years and I was talking about it nonstop. We were signing attacking midfielders to play as wingers. We were signing double pivot players and playing a 4-3-3. It’s no surprise once we moved to a 4-2-3-1 and we put players in the roles they succeeded in before we did well. That’s why I’m a fan of Pioli. He understands balance so well.

Do you think it’s a surprise Theo Hernandez is rated so highly now? I don’t. He plays under perfect conditions. The winger ahead of him cuts inside which leaves the touch line area open. Pioli gives him the license to overlap and attack high up the pitch and he does so by playing Kessie behind him instead of Bennacer. Ones a physical B2B midfielder while the other is more of a Verratti type. Then behind Kessie there’s Tomori who has elite pace and aggression so if Theo is caught out and Kessie can’t deal with the transition threat you have to deal with Tomori next. Originally it was Bennacer and Romagnoli who played behind him because they were left footed so the passing angles were better, but we dealt with the transition threat worse compared to Kessie and Tomori playing instead.

It’s all about on the pitch relationships. It’s about signing players who complement your game changers. Guardiola calls it chaos and control. You want 3-4 players who can provide chaos, but for the team to remain balanced there needs to be 5-6 players who provide control to ensure you aren’t exposed. Pogba is a player who provides chaos, but United didn’t support him with controlling players around him. That’s ultimately the reason he was a success at Juve and France.

That’s the reason Liverpool have done so well despite not spending as much as their rivals. They sign players who complement those around them. For Liverpool to get the best out of their wingers and fullbacks they have to play donkey midfielders, athletic CB’s, and a false 9.

If I was the director of a football team and say I wanted to sign a LB. I look at who my LCB, LCM, and LW are. If my left winger likes hugging the touchline, the LCM likes playing higher up the pitch, and the LCB is quite slow then I’m going to sign a more defensive LB for more stability.

Again it’s all about being complementary to those around you. If I had 100M to spend then I’d go ahead and buy Alphonso Davies, but that would negatively impact the team. Either he underperforms because you limit him by playing him more defensively or the team underperforms because he decides to attack like a mad man irrespective of those ahead of him.

So many top teams are ignorant of this point. I just don’t know who to blame. Is it the directors for having poor scouting? Is it because teams change their managers so often and different managers have different wants so building a balanced team in each one’s image becomes harder?

That’s what the issue with Conte will be. I’m sure he’ll be a success, but let’s be honest he’s a system coach. He’s going to want to sign players who fit the 3-4-3 or 3-5-2 and I’m not sure how many United players are suited to that system. I imagine they’ll end up having to spend even more to get the team balanced in Conte’s mind. And guess what? When Conte leaves I bet you they’ll end up signing a coach who plays the opposite of a Conte style 3-5-2 and United will struggle.

Unlike City who will probably sign Ten Haag when Pep leaves or something and they’ll be doing just fine after too I bet.
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Post by Casciavit Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:48 pm

I’d play Pogba as a LCM in a 4-3-3, but I also think he can play in a double pivot. He would need a holding DM and a more defensive winger next to him though. United play a B2B CM as their holding DM and an inside forward as the winger next to him instead lol.

Ole tried compensating by playing two B2B CM’s as his double pivot and playing Pogba in a fake LW role which is what Fergie would’ve done if he had the same team. That obviously has changed now with the addition of the star attacking players.

Honestly I feel if Pirlo came up right now some big team would sign him only to play him next to attacking midfielders as his CM partners. When in reality he required two runners to bring the best out of him.
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Post by Thimmy Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:57 pm

From what I can tell, what caused the biggest change in Liverpool was the relatively cheap acquisitions of Van Dijk, Salah and Mane. You might be right that they needed the right environment or system to play to their strengths, but I feel like less established, more momentarily hyped up players are typically being bought for unjustifiably higher sums these days.

Son is another player who was punching above his weight class at his two previous clubs, before being snapped up for cheap by Tottenham. He wasn't a definite world beater by any means, but even as someone who only watched him sporadically at Hamburg and Leverkusen, it was very clear that he was showing sustainable talent, which I think is more valuable than someone who is snapped up as soon as they burst onto the scene. Somehow, players like him doesn't seem to demand a comparable price tag to one season wonders who benefit from more exposure, like Jovic who even played in the same league.
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Post by El Gunner Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:14 pm

futbol_bill wrote:I recall both Sports and Nick saying he was a B2B! I believe most of the criticism is coming from the expectations based mainly on his price tag, both transfer price and salary. You guys keep pointing out his excellent play and his proper use, but you don’t talk about his inconsistency, other than excuses. For his price tag, he hasn’t measured up to expectations.

thank you
and also because along with Hazard he is one of two of the most overrated players of the 2010s when it comes to the ratio between the hype around their name/image vs their actual quality as star players
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Post by Casciavit Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:33 pm

I agree with you Thimmy. That’s why I said teams sign players using FIFA logic. One season wonders who go viral on YouTube and since they play LW in their old team that must mean they will produce the same effect playing in their new team.

That’s why I praised Liverpool’s recruitment strategy. The players you mentioned were good when they signed but they obviously didn’t have the same level of hype as other big money signings at the time.

They succeeded though. Firstly, because they fit the way Klopp wanted to play. His style requires athletic players who thrive in chaotic game situations. Secondly, he found the balance he wanted from his team.

In 2018, he decided that Salah and Mane would be his main goal scorers. So he played his wingers more centrally. He then compensated that by playing attacking fullbacks to take care of the wings. Trent and Robertson came up in the perfect time. Then he realized that to get his fullbacks so involved in the attack he will need runners as his CM’s to cover for them. So he played donkeys to cover their backs.

When you play a 4-3-3 and your CM’s are so defensive you lack threat in between the lines. What did he do? He played Firmino as a false 9 to fix that issue. Since Salah and Mane were the main finishers it didn’t matter that they didn’t have a traditional 9.

Then he realized the key weak areas after was not having a proper DM, no defensive leader, and a shit goalie. He went on to sign Fabinho, van Dijk, and Alisson. Those players weren’t cheap, but they directly fixed the issues Liverpool had and didn’t compromise the balance of the players ahead of them. They also helped Liverpool’s build up and possession game too.

Liverpool’s squad building period during the Klopp era is the blueprint on how to build a team in the modern era. You sign a manager who you have faith that you will be able to support in the long term. You then sign players who fit the identity of the way your manager wants to play which in extension should be what your club wants to play.

Then it’s up to the manager to find a way to make a balanced 11. You decide who your game changers will be then you decide which profiles are needed to bring the best out of those game changers. Then if there’s a specific weak area you make a signing in that position who won’t negatively impact the balance of the team you had in mind. This is where signing based on complementary fit rather than just positional need comes in. That’s what Liverpool did and that’s what Milan’s doing right now.

That’s why I laugh when people think money means success. Sure it helps but time and time again it’s not a guarantee. If you don’t have a proper strategy or structure in place you can spend, but still fail.
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Post by Thimmy Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:31 pm

That's a good analysis. Managers rarely have full control over their transfers, though. I know the majority of clubs have a system in place to ensure that not just any coach can come in and buy whoever he wants to buy. There's usually several individuals involved in the decision-making for every transfer, typically the manager, a sporting director, a talent scout, and people who are in charge of finances. I know there are exceptions to this, but it's extremely rare. Mourinho allegedly requested greater control over his transfers when he was at Real Madrid, but that's a privilege managers don't typically have.

The manager can request specific players or share their input regarding what the team needs, and then there's a process that takes into account the club's budget, how much they may recuperate through the player's commercial value, and other details that are relevant to the club - and I suspect this might be one reason why we're seeing players being more frequently  bought based on a spike in their stock values.

I believe transfer fees have been inflated to the point where clubs not run by filthy rich business owners can't realistically compete for the top players, so they might be more inclined to gamble on "the scraps" that aren't necessarily from the top shelf in terms of their desired profile, but have garnered enough hype to indicate a certain level of commercial success and return on investment. All speculation, but I'm really struggling to think of other reasons why so many professional, resourceful clubs aren't picking out their transfer targets more carefully in an age where clubs can no longer do a Man City and replace half a team with top talent over 2-3 transfer windows.
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Post by Nishankly Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:41 pm

Coutinho was the greatest thing to happen to Liverpool :bow:
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Post by sportsczy Fri Oct 29, 2021 11:12 pm

futbol_bill wrote:I recall both Sports and Nick saying he was a B2B! I believe most of the criticism is coming from the expectations based mainly on his price tag, both transfer price and salary. You guys keep pointing out his excellent play and his proper use, but you don’t talk about his inconsistency, other than excuses. For his price tag, he hasn’t measured up to expectations.

In a 352 he was.  But he could take risks (which is the key).   He had an aggressive Chiellini (Bonucci and Barzagli were covering him), the left-back, and another mid helping him.  It is a far less taxing role in a 352.  It worked in Conte's system.

When Vidal and Pirlo left, he played the 10/am for Juve because Allegri realized, and rightly so, that Pogba would require to do too much defensively in his system.  So he pushed Marchisio back and moved Pogba forward to emphasize Pogba's strengths...  his ability to provide chaos as Casci put it.

I want to point out that Zidane started out as a complete flop at Juve because they were playing him as a holding mid next to Deschamps.  Then Platini jumped in and basically told Juve that you either play him more forward or you should sell him... because he is being completely wasted.  Zidane was 25 years old at this time. Juve listened and the rest is history.
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Post by futbol_bill Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:31 pm

But Zidane didn’t go to Juve for 100M and ridiculous salary!

I don’t have doubt of him being a good player . I do however question his consistency and motivation.

The point of the criticism is his play / contribution to the team based on his cost!
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