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Post by futbol_bill Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:10 pm

I just read in marca (altas y bajas) that Madrid has interest in Mariano. I assume as a backup. Does anyone know the details of the deal that sent him to France. I know it was a sale, but was there any buyback option?

IMO, if we do get a new starter (and manage to shed NUEVE), the reacquisition makes more sense than other canteras.

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Post by sportsczy Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:25 pm

No buyback. Lyon has no intention of selling. Mariano has no intention of leaving. It's fake news all the way around.
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Post by halamadrid2 Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:55 pm

Mariano has already said that if we came calling he'd come immediately. He is our own, in the end RM is where they want to be. He left because ZZ told him to or he'd stayed even to be third choices striker

I'd love to get him back as a back up and to fight for a starting spot but NOT as the marquee signing. We need a WC proven goalscorer
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Post by sportsczy Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:56 am

That's no longer true Hala... and Lyon won't sell because they don't have depth at cf. They're not going to jeopardize their season this late in the transfer window unless we massively overpay. They'd have to overpay too for a replacement.
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Post by halamadrid2 Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:19 pm

I am not saying that Lyon will sell. Only that Mariano would be happy to come if we asked him to. Unlike those players who are happy either way

So Kovacic has asked Lope to let him leave. Can't say I am too unhappy tbh. I always thought that Ceballos had more potential than him. Kovacic came a long way but for the most part was a frustrating player. He never took full advantage of his qualities and instead always chose the safest option over initiative

I hope we can ready Ceballos to take over from Modric. I love watching him play. Always looks to make things happen instead of leaving that job to the person next to him like Kovacic always did/does. Which is a shame, the quality Kovacic has is not seen in any of our other players but he has barely progressed.
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Post by The Madrid One Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:40 pm

With Llorente, Ceballos, and Isco we should have enough to cover what Kovacic offers as a bench player if he does leave. As for Ceballos i want to see more of his work as a deeper lying CM and his long passing/distribution, he still leaves many doubts in me.
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Post by Mr Nick09 Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:54 pm

Ceballos and Kovacic are so different as players i dont see how one substitutes the other. Kovacic was to offer quality as a deep lying midfielder to both control the game and in working to bring the ball out of the back because of his ability to dribble and to hold pressure in tight spaces; not to mention his tactical versatility that allows him to in a double pivot and to be a reliable defensive player.

Ceballos offers none of that. he likes to play in more advanced positions on the pitch, he likes to dribble and his passing isnt really tested in a context where he has to spread the ball around to get the game moving. Not just that, but the way Ceballos understands and plays football has nothing to do with the job of a CM/controller. you can play him in a 3 man midfield as an interior left or right, but never in a double pivot. Not to mention that his defensive aptitudes have not been tested at the highest level like Kovacic.

Im not even gonna talk about Llorente because he as well, is a completely different animal.

I would say that we do not have a natural replacement for Kovacic in the team, technically and tactically. Do we need a 1 for 1 replacement? i would argue that we do.
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Post by halamadrid2 Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:04 pm

Kovacic could never control a midfield. His footballing know how isn't up to scratch. He is far too lazy to play as a DLP and his range of passing leaves alot to be desired most of which are sideways. His runs from deep amount to nothing as his automatic trajectory is diagonal rather than vertical taking him to the wings passing the closest person to him. Copa was the perfect time for him to show how much he'd grown and he couldn't control anything leaving the "controlling" to Ceballos who'd been with us for 3 nonths. The only quality we will miss is his speed, all our midfielders are slow but in terms of midfield quality we won't miss him
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Post by futbol_bill Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:06 pm

They have said over and over that if Kovacic leaves they bring in a replacement such as Thiago!
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Post by futbol_bill Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:08 pm

halamadrid2 wrote:Kovacic could never control a midfield. His footballing know how isn't up to scratch. He is far too lazy to play as a DLP and his range of passing leaves alot to be desired most of which are sideways. His runs from deep amount to nothing as his automatic trajectory is diagonal rather than vertical taking him to the wings passing the closest person to him. Copa was the perfect time for him to show how much he'd grown and he couldn't control anything leaving the "controlling" to Ceballos who'd been with us for 3 nonths. The only quality we will miss is his speed, all our midfielders are slow but in terms of midfield quality we won't miss him


Not to mention that Kovacic will have immense problems with the one touch philosophy of Lopetequi.
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Post by Mr Nick09 Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:11 pm

I think ultimately Kovacic missed his chance to show more quality but at the same time it's not easy for midfielders to play patches of games here and there and to look dominant.

Yet what i described above is what differentiate Ceballos and Kovacic because they are too different. The concern here i not having a player like Modric off the bench who would produce similar quality to play from deep and to drive the ball forward from the back, while controlling the game.

It's a tough ask because no one does it as well. I know we had been scouting Paredes for a while and i always wondered if it was for this situation. THere is also Ruben neves who played with Lopetegui at porto when he was like 17-18.

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Post by Mr Nick09 Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:13 pm

@bill, Thiago is too good to come to madrid and to play off the bench. I dont see that happening.

Not to mention Bayern dont seem like they want to gut their team and sell their key players. You dont replace a player like Thiago easily, so i can't imagine them just allowing him to walk, it doesnt make sense
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Post by halamadrid2 Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:32 pm

We have enough midfielders to fill 3 A,B,C teams. I think Thiago is quality but he reminds me of Koke with more technique. I think we should focus on developing Ceballos who has a higher ceilings than those midfielder. In the right environment I think he can become an explosive midfielder. Lope is the perfect coach for him to develop and hone his skills. But first Lope needs to fix our pressing. If we can press like his Spain team these midfielders won't get stretched as they did under ZZ.

And Kovacic isn't a bad player by any means. He'd probably start for alot of the top teams. He has got bundles of quality and talent but I feel wirh his desire to leave he isn't a player we'll rue leaving.
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Post by futbol_bill Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:47 pm

I’m not insisting Thiago will come, rather we will be a MF short and they have stated from beginning if Kova leaves, bring in another. i agree with Hala that we should see what Ceballos can do, but I also agree he is not Modric.

I also agree re Kovacic, he’s not a bad player, but his style of reckless trots forward are not conductive to Lopetequi style, much like Theo will be a misfit with these tactics. I think at end of day, Odriozola or Carvajal will play on left when necessary.
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Post by Mr Nick09 Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:16 pm

what happened to the spanish LB? even if Theo lives, who is that LB that fits Lopetegui's style.

ps: please dont mention Marcos Alonso lol, he is not a left back
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Post by futbol_bill Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:22 pm

There is none. Alba - no thanks, Monreal - too old and limited, Alonso - I agree with you, Azpili - acceptable, but naturally right, and these days much like Nacho, more CB.
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Post by futbol_bill Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:26 pm

I might add that Nacho was quite impressive as a lateral for NT. It was on right and he is naturally left.
I would be ok if he eventually replaced Marcelo!
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Post by futbol_bill Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:29 pm

I can also add that I have an impressive primo (17 year old) lateral with Real Oviedo, but as I’m his agent, I’ll refrain from mentioning him further!
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Post by VanDeezNuts Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:44 pm

I still haven't heard anything about Theo leaving, but here are some options that haven't already been discussed:

Grimaldo, Aaron Martin, Toni Lato, Gaya

This is just for backup LB, so I'm not too bothered.

We have been rumored with Aaron Martin in the past I believe.

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Post by Mr Nick09 Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:05 pm

Marcelo was never a great athlete and i think he is struggling more and more come the end of the season. Look at his game vs Bayern, he was frankly embarrassing. For all the positive things he does going forward, i fear that he faces someone like Mbappe and gets rekt.

So to me, it's just not a back up role. Fullback is just too important a position in the modern game and marcelo is no CR, he definitely doesnt look like the type who cares about his body as much.
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Post by futbol_bill Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:18 pm

Again, this is a transitional year. Theo goes out on loan ( or not) as per rumours and given lateness in market, Marcelo is king and backup is Nacho / Odriozola or Carvajal.

There is no mystery here!
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Post by Mr Nick09 Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:20 pm

Nacho should be the third option to start at LB or RB. he should only play there if we have emergencies. And i have never seen Carjaval play on the left, let alone Odriozola. Why would you even want that type of risk?

Theo is staying and backing up Marcelo if anything.
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Post by Doc Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:24 pm

Odriozola has never played LB any time I sat down and watched a La Real match (which was a decent to good amount). I have never seen Dani play LB either. We loan out Theo or sell him outright and we'll be short a LB. I do hope the club uses a bit of sense with that one.

Theo can improve, he is 20, defenders take time to actually get really good at their role (unless you're Maldini, Nesta, Bergomi, der Kaiser and their ilk). Do we not remember the train wreck that was Marcelo at 20?
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Post by futbol_bill Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:28 pm

Both Theo and Kovacic exhibited traits last year, i.e. reckless forward motion that usually ended up with loss of possession plus crosses with no direction to anyone in particular, that were not conductive to tactics Lopetequi likes to employ. If they can adapt to more direct passes / crosses, more controlled forward motion then possibly they can contribute!
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Post by futbol_bill Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:31 pm

Doc, Arbeloa never played left until he came to Madrid. Defenders can switch fairly easily. I.e. Ramos a RB but plays LCB. azpili, Nacho, etc etc
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Post by Mr Nick09 Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:37 pm

Versatility is a skill that not everyone can have. So instead of going into the season with a natural back up you want us to try our hand at transforming a RB? that doesnt make sense.

In any case, i think the club keenly understands the importance of doubling positions, and that's why they signed Odriozola. They wont let Theo leave without replacing him, that i am sure of.


Last edited by Mr Nick09 on Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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