World Cup (2018) - Group D (Argentina, Croatia, Iceland, Nigeria)

Babun wrote:

RealGunner wrote:Players like Fat Ronaldo, Zidane, Maradona, Pele and Cristiano are far far ahead of messi in international level though. They have all achieved something and proven themselves.

RG, please no Messi vs Ronaldo in this thread. There is a thread of their own for that. My claim was soleily addressed at all time greats. Messi is claimed by his fans to be an all time great. Those people always leave their mark in some way even in the worst teams. Even a Ryan Giggs would be noticed asap in a Wales 11. They would lose 9/10 times but you'd notice him doing something in that team.
As far as CR7 goes, peak R9 was and still is for me the best forward in the history of the game.

"Peak" is irrelevant when it only lasted for a brief second. Ronaldo has been bloody fantastic for over 10 years now. I'm not sure R9 even had a 3 year spell of consistent dominance without missing loads of games to injuries. You can't ignore CR7's longevity and consistency. It's a BIG plus.

Babun wrote:

M99 wrote:That Golden Ball was a joke. He was by far the best player of the group stages but thats where it ends. Very disrespectful to Higuain, Di Maria, Romero and the defence who were all vital in the KO stages when fanboys say Messi carried them to the final.

Prime Di Maria was the driving force in that team in attack, more than Messi.

There was hardly any attack in that team after the first round.

Solid defense and superhuman goalkeeping ( we haven't used this one in a while ) dragged them to the final.

The fact that you guys are bickering about who was most important to Messi's Argentina in 2014 (see what I did there), is demonstrative that in this sport and in this competition you cannot do it alone. Are we talking about which German player carried them to the final and won the competition? Nope.

In 2010 do we talk about a Spanish powerhouse or Iniesta?

In 2006 do we talk about Pirlo or Buffon?

You know when we talk about things like this? When we talk about Messi and Ronaldo. It's a decade long discussion that has cost me more brain cells then any amount of alcohol could.

farfan wrote:

Babun wrote:

M99 wrote:That Golden Ball was a joke. He was by far the best player of the group stages but thats where it ends. Very disrespectful to Higuain, Di Maria, Romero and the defence who were all vital in the KO stages when fanboys say Messi carried them to the final.

Prime Di Maria was the driving force in that team in attack, more than Messi.

There was hardly any attack in that team after the first round.

Solid defense and superhuman goalkeeping ( we haven't used this one in a while ) dragged them to the final.

That didn't stop this entire forum clamour Sneijder should win the Balon D'or in 2010 when Holland and Inter's success was entirely predicated on defense.

I don't actually disagree the defence was a bigger factor, just realise the hypocrisy.

Also, Mole really gonna count reaching the Copa Marketing "tournament" final as an achievement?

Doc wrote:Also, Mole really gonna count reaching the Copa Marketing "tournament" final as an achievement?

No different than what the Euros was after the format change, that tournament isn't prestigious to me anymore.

No disrespect to Portugal as they took advantage, but they will be the first of many to win a tournament which feels exactly the same as Copa America, AFCON etc etc.

Which is a shame.

danyjr wrote:Our players are just poor. I don't even know why the world considers Argentina a top team. Just look at our starting line-up ffs. We have Messi and Agüero and that's it. The rest are overpaid piles of crap with no pride. Our goalkeepers and defence has been poor for years, our midfield nothing to boast about (and insult to injury is that the coach doesn't even play the best ones). Sure we have top attackers but they can't bail the team out when they get no service.

Thing is, any one of Messi, Aguero, Higuain, Dybala, Di Maria & co would be BY FAR the best players on the Nigeria or Iceland teams and it wouldn't even be close at all. I bet they'd even pay good money to loan Icardi just for this WC. And you left him at home.

danyjr wrote:We can beat Nigeria by 2 goals if we play properly. They are definitely the worst team in this group.

Here is hoping they manage to not lose vs Iceland.

No, actually, YOU'RE the worst team in the group. The group standing is exactly accurate. Nigeria didn't even play that bad against Croatia. They lost to two goals from set pieces that resulted in a deflected own goal and a silly foul for a penalty. Compare that to the goals Croatia scored against Argentina. You were truly carved open with ease.

I think it's a massive shame because your FA have wasted a generation of HUGELY talented players. This, ironically, might be the most talented crop of players you've ever had in your history. And how is it always all blamed on managers btw? Messi is a feckless lilly liver and has to take a lot of criticism from your national media if there's any justice in the world. How do you concede a goal in minute 50-something and immediately drop your head the rest of the match? HOW? And you're the CAPTAIN?????

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:

Doc wrote:Also, Mole really gonna count reaching the Copa Marketing "tournament" final as an achievement?

No different than what the Euros was after the format change, that tournament isn't prestigious to me anymore.

No disrespect to Portugal as they took advantage, but they will be the first of many to win a tournament which feels exactly the same as Copa America, AFCON etc etc.

Which is a shame.

In which Mole tries to tell us that winning a continental tournament - THE continental tournament - in the planet's premier football continent is no longer prestigous for whatever reason. Next thing you'll tell me the winner of the 2026 WC wouldn't carry as much weight as previous winners. You think this is the first time tournaments have been changed? Think the Euros have always been the same format pre 2016? Quite frankly, you're being silly.

All their talent happens to be in the same position though. It's not to easy to field 4 forwards all the time, it would be the same for any nation really. You need quality throughout the team to win.

Argentina, shit goalkeeper, average at best defence, average at best midfield, world class attack managed by the South American Ventura

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:

farfan wrote:

Babun wrote:

Prime Di Maria was the driving force in that team in attack, more than Messi.

There was hardly any attack in that team after the first round.

Solid defense and superhuman goalkeeping ( we haven't used this one in a while ) dragged them to the final.  

That didn't stop this entire forum clamour Sneijder should win the Balon D'or in 2010 when Holland and Inter's success was entirely predicated on defense.

I don't actually disagree the defence was a bigger factor, just realise the hypocrisy.

Sneijder's world cup was a bit different imo. He stepped up in every single decisive game and somehow managed to end up as the WC top scorer despite being a low-scoring midfielder. Completely outshone Van Persie, Robben, and other players who were supposed to be the difference makers in the final third.  

I don't know about the Ballon D'or, but he definitely deserved to win player of the tournament over Forlan.

It wasn't that it was Copa America, that actually was an achievement back in 2015. It was the fact it was a "special" Copa America, one that happened right after the official one. That one I still and probably would always feel holds no merit regardless of whomever than won it far less for reaching it.

In any case, Messi's international career has not ended as yet so we'll see how it goes but at this very moment, it's a good career so far. Nothing legendary nor shitty, just good.

I have no idea why people keep mentioning players who are not playing, you can't effect a game from the stands.

Caballero; Mercado, Otamendi, Tagliafico; Salvio, Pérez, Mascherano, Acuña; Messi, Agüero, Meza

This is the team that started against Croatia, Dany is right Messi and Aguero aside it's complete and utter shite.

And Messi and Aguero are made utterly pointless when they don't touch the ball, there was a stat at half time that Aguero touched the ball 7 times and Messi touched it 20 times.

When that happens they might as well not be there, put it this way as an Englishman there's 9 players there i would not want anywhere my team and i was told we were shite before the tournament.

But Mole, lets just play all the strikers. *bleep* it


what a time to be alive

Luca wrote:All their talent happens to be in the same position though. It's not to easy to field 4 forwards all the time, it would be the same for any nation really. You need quality throughout the team to win.

Argentina, shit goalkeeper, average at best defence, average at best midfield, world class attack managed by the South American Ventura

Most teams in world football would kill to be in that situation. How many teams are completely balanced with quality? Germany, Brazil, Belgium, France, Spain but who else? And it says a lot that I'd still like my chances against any of these teams I just named even with the Argentina squad.

Blue Barrett wrote:

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:

Doc wrote:Also, Mole really gonna count reaching the Copa Marketing "tournament" final as an achievement?

No different than what the Euros was after the format change, that tournament isn't prestigious to me anymore.

No disrespect to Portugal as they took advantage, but they will be the first of many to win a tournament which feels exactly the same as Copa America, AFCON etc etc.

Which is a shame.

In which Mole tries to tell us that winning a continental tournament - THE continental tournament - in the planet's premier football continent is no longer prestigous for whatever reason. Next thing you'll tell me the winner of the 2026 WC wouldn't carry as much weight as previous winners. You think this is the first time tournaments have been changed? Think the Euros have always been the same format pre 2016? Quite frankly, you're being silly.

That depends how it changes, also this is the first time in my memory where you don't even have to finish 2nd to qualify through the group in the Euros.

So yes it's less prestigious and will continue to be so in future tournaments unless something changes.

The top teams also happened to be the most well-balanced ones.

Ask @BC or some other Argentina fans if they could sacrifice a couple of those forwards for a couple equal class midfielders, I'm sure they would

Fully expecting Nigeria to sneak a 2-1 win over Argentina btw. I'll be ready with my popcorn and my laptop plugged on to my tv viewing tweetdeck and taking all the Messi/Argentina slander in like a drug.

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:

Blue Barrett wrote:

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:

No different than what the Euros was after the format change, that tournament isn't prestigious to me anymore.

No disrespect to Portugal as they took advantage, but they will be the first of many to win a tournament which feels exactly the same as Copa America, AFCON etc etc.

Which is a shame.

In which Mole tries to tell us that winning a continental tournament - THE continental tournament - in the planet's premier football continent is no longer prestigous for whatever reason. Next thing you'll tell me the winner of the 2026 WC wouldn't carry as much weight as previous winners. You think this is the first time tournaments have been changed? Think the Euros have always been the same format pre 2016? Quite frankly, you're being silly.

That depends how it changes, also this is the first time in my memory where you don't even have to finish 2nd to qualify through the group in the Euros.

So yes it's less prestigious and will continue to be so in future tournaments unless something changes.

By your logic, the 1930 WC with 13 teams was the most prestigous WC then?

Blue Barrett wrote:Fully expecting Nigeria to sneak a 2-1 win over Argentina btw. I'll be ready with my popcorn and my laptop plugged on to my tv viewing tweetdeck and taking all the Messi/Argentina slander in like a drug.

That's your right and the result wouldn't surprise me. I think Ventura Sampaoli has lost the squad completely. I basically have goosebumps from how much this reminds me of the space between the first and second leg of Sweden-Italy.

The thing I like is that the result is more firmly in Argentina's hands given the Nigeria win. Win or go home

Caballero; Mercado, Otamendi, Tagliafico; Salvio, Pérez, Mascherano, Acuña; Messi, Agüero, Meza

Aye i'm sure teams are just begging to be able to pick this team.

This is like putting Messi and Aguero on a Newcastle Pardew team and wondering why it doesn't work.

BTW i'm going to keep posting this team until everyone gets it through their tiny brains that this team is *bleep* terrible.

Luca wrote:But Mole, lets just play all the strikers. *bleep* it

Di Maria-Higuain-Aguero-Icardi-Dybala
Messi
Mascherano
Tagliafico-Otamendi-Mercado
Wilfredo

what a time to be alive

Maradona would be proud of that selection. Also, I thought it was clear that Argentina's issue stem from a managerial level. Sampaoli clearly looks like a man who isn't too aware of what he is doing and the selectors picked a squad that lacks quality in major are that is essential for their WC attackers to really flourish, you know, the midfield. Figure they couldn't do jack shit in defense and goalie and selected whomever was available.

Lionel did disappoint in both games though from an individual level. He can't really help how the team is shaped though.

Lionel did disappoint @doc, something that cannot be overlooked. Missing the penalty and just being rather gutless against Croatia, not that he could have done anything but it would have been nice if you know, he did anything.

Against Iceland he looked lively, it was the penalty miss that let him down but he still had like 10 shots. I thought for sure he would score.

Sampaoli completely changing the formation to whatever the hell he fielded against Croatia, was it really a 3-4-3? Imagine the disrespect Croatia felt seeing this overgrown Elmer Fudd play a pivot of Enzo Perez and Mascherano against Rakitic, Modric and Brozovic ffs

Blue Barrett wrote:

Luca wrote:All their talent happens to be in the same position though. It's not to easy to field 4 forwards all the time, it would be the same for any nation really. You need quality throughout the team to win.

Argentina, shit goalkeeper, average at best defence, average at best midfield, world class attack managed by the South American Ventura

Most teams in world football would kill to be in that situation. How many teams are completely balanced with quality? Germany, Brazil, Belgium, France, Spain but who else? And it says a lot that I'd still like my chances against any of these teams I just named even with the Argentina squad.

Germany isn't balanced at all. We have a leftback problem, usually, a CB plays there. In midfield, we are stuck with Khedira in defensive midfield. No German midfielder can successfuly play CM role with defensive duties. Kroos can't tackle to save his life, Can cannot pass accuratly, Gündogan is too slow. We don't have wingers who can beat their man. Our forward options are subpar right now. Werner and Gomez are enough fro scrub teams but not at international level. We are nowhere near a complete team. The drop of quality is huge after Klose and Lahm's departure.

Blue Barrett wrote:By your logic, the 1930 WC with 13 teams was the most prestigous WC then?

He did say Euros so Mole isn't talking about the WC. To which is kinda funny since the Euros was actually increased from 8 to 16 back in...1996. Not that far off. I am sure there was a Mole back in 95 arguing about the tournament being diluted because now, instead of the group winners going into the final, the group winners have to play the runners up in some KO round like the WC.

Sacrilege I tell you.

Babun wrote:

Blue Barrett wrote:

Luca wrote:All their talent happens to be in the same position though. It's not to easy to field 4 forwards all the time, it would be the same for any nation really. You need quality throughout the team to win.

Argentina, shit goalkeeper, average at best defence, average at best midfield, world class attack managed by the South American Ventura

Most teams in world football would kill to be in that situation. How many teams are completely balanced with quality? Germany, Brazil, Belgium, France, Spain but who else? And it says a lot that I'd still like my chances against any of these teams I just named even with the Argentina squad.

Germany isn't balanced at all. We have a leftback problem, usually, a CB plays there. In midfield, we are stuck with Khedira in defensive midfield. No German midfielder can successfuly play CM role with defensive duties. Kroos can't tackle to save his life, Can cannot pass accuratly, Gündogan is too slow. We don't have wingers who can beat their man. Our forward options are subpar right now. Werner and Gomez are enough fro scrub teams but not at international level. We are nowhere near a complete team. The drop of quality is huge after Klose and Lahm's departure.

Stop it with this nonsense. This is a really spoilt attitude. You're one of the most stacked WC teams since '98. Probably 4th or 5th since that period as far as pure talent. You're also the reigning world champions. Teams are doing what they can with a bunch of bang average players everywhere and you're complaining that your star players lack quality A or quality B. Do you listen to yourself?

Imagine trying to downplay the German squad

Doc wrote:

Blue Barrett wrote:By your logic, the 1930 WC with 13 teams was the most prestigous WC then?

He did say Euros so Mole isn't talking about the WC. To which is kinda funny since the Euros was actually increased from 8 to 16 back in...1996. Not that far off. I am sure there was a Mole back in 95 arguing about the tournament being diluted because now, instead of the group winners going into the final, the group winners have to play the runners up in some KO round like the WC.

Sacrilege I tell you.

I mean why would i criticize something that happened 60 years before i was born