World Cup (2018) - Group D (Argentina, Croatia, Iceland, Nigeria)

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Post by zigra on Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:57 pm

@Cruijf wrote:Without playing in the final like I said. Sure he took them to the final but Messi did that three times, and once in a WC which Ronaldo has never done.


He played in the final and Messi scored zero goals in the ko games in the WC yet "took them to the final".

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Post by RealGunner on Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:58 pm

@zigra wrote:
@Cruijf wrote:Without playing in the final like I said. Sure he took them to the final but Messi did that three times, and once in a WC which Ronaldo has never done.


He played in the final and Messi scored zero goals in the ko games in the WC yet "took them to the final".


These fanboys are hilarious. They don't even see the logical fallacy in their own arguments.
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Post by Babun on Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:05 pm

@RealGunner wrote:Players like Fat Ronaldo, Zidane, Maradona, Pele and Cristiano are far far ahead of messi in international level though. They have all achieved something and proven themselves.


RG, please no Messi vs Ronaldo in this thread. There is a thread of their own for that. My claim was soleily addressed at all time greats. Messi is claimed by his fans to be an all time great. Those people always leave their mark in some way even in the worst teams. Even a Ryan Giggs would be noticed asap in a Wales 11. They would lose 9/10 times but you'd notice him doing something in that team.
As far as CR7 goes, peak R9 was and still is for me the best forward in the history of the game.


Last edited by Babun on Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by RealGunner on Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:07 pm

Actually just went back to look at WC14 because 'Messi took Argentina to the final' bit couldn't feel any more wrong since I clearly remember him being poor in most of the matches but given some sympathy award at the end

This is the 'better than ronaldo at internationals Messi'

Group stages. Scored against Bosnia. Scored twice against Nigeria but Rojo won them the match by scoring the winner which ended 2-3.

R16. Argentina Vs Switzland. Nothing
QF. Argentina Vs Belgium. Nothing
SF. Argentina Vs Netherlands. Nothing
Final. Argentina Vs Germany. Nothing.

But then I forgot, 10 players playing with him let him down and none of it was his fault.

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Post by Luca on Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:07 pm

Ronaldo also lost the 2004 Euro final if we want to get into technicalities

Missed a penalty in the CL final with United way back when

Portugal won the Euro in spite of Ronaldo, not because of him. He scored a whopping two goals and both were in the group stage

What Messi did in 2014, Ronaldo cannot do. It's not in him, he's not the type of player. He's one of the best goal scorers ever and he's a winner but he's limited to being a finisher, certainly there's no more decisive player but objectively from a talent standpoint, it's Messi.

Stop re-writing history about this Portugal side. They are established, they are experienced, they have proper management, they defend. Light years ahead of Sampaoli's Argentina.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:09 pm

He played in the final for like 10 mins, he had *bleep* all to do with that result lol.

Don't want to hear he was managing them from the sidelines either just because he was jumping around like a moron tbh.

It is funny though, Portugal are apparently this average side yet they beat France without him. World Cup (2018) - Group D (Argentina, Croatia, Iceland, Nigeria) - Page 19 Iiam
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Post by CBarca on Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:09 pm

Jesus this is like reading a youtube conversation

I don't really agree with Cruijff, but it's not exactly a weak contention that Messi and CR have achieved similarly given that, yes, while CR did lead Portugal to the Euro final, he played 25 minutes without any real impact on the game.

The contention is that Messi and CR have achieved similarly in leading teams to a final (I think we can all agree here). However, there is an argument that Ronaldo is MUCH more accomplished because he won the final.

Idk, I don't think it's a bad point to say that's kind of a weak argument considering he played for 25 minutes and the game was 0-0 before he got injured, and was 0-0 after.

Exactly what did Ronaldo do that Messi did not, in this triumph?

I'm just putting this out there and signalling *some* support for Cruijff's arguments here. Cba to offer more of an opinion on such an old and closed debate as CR vs Messi

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Post by Luca on Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:11 pm

@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:He played in the final for like 10 mins, he had *bleep* all to do with that result lol.

Don't want to hear he was managing them from the sidelines either just because he was jumping around like a moron tbh.

It is funny though, Portugal are apparently this average side yet they beat France without him. World Cup (2018) - Group D (Argentina, Croatia, Iceland, Nigeria) - Page 19 Iiam


I seriously demand more respect on this Portugal team. If we don't work together, they're going to sneak up and win another international tournament ffs. Not on my watch

They are a strong team, perhaps stronger having won the Euro and having Ronaldo in already better form than he was during that tournament
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Post by RealGunner on Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:12 pm

@Babun wrote:
@RealGunner wrote:Players like Fat Ronaldo, Zidane, Maradona, Pele and Cristiano are far far ahead of messi in international level though. They have all achieved something and proven themselves.


RG, please no Messi vs Ronaldo in this thread. There is a thread of their own for that. My claim was soleily addressed at all time greats. Messi is claimed by his fans to be an all time great. Those people always leave their mark in some way even in the worst teams. Even a Ryan Giggs would be noticed asap in a Wales 11. They would lose 9/10 times but you'd notice him doing something is that team almost all the time.
As far as CR7 goes, peak R9 was and still is for me the best forward in the history of the game.


My intention was not to start a war. I just included the name of the player who has the most international goals of any player in history.

And I fully agree with you. I am not saying Cristiano is ahead of the all time greats. R9, Pele, Maradona, Zidane are all far ahead of Cristiano. But Messi does not belong in that list. He has done nothing and has achieved nothing at International level. If he retires for Argentina tomorrow, no one will be able to name a single memorable thing he has done. For Barca? sure there are hundreds. But not for Argentina

Zidane? 98
R9? 2002
Pele? 58,62,70
maradona? 88
Messi? none

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Post by CBarca on Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:12 pm

@RealGunner wrote:Actually just went back to look at WC14 because 'Messi took Argentina to the final' bit couldn't feel any more wrong since I clearly remember him being poor in most of the matches but given some sympathy award at the end

This is the 'better than ronaldo at internationals Messi'

Group stages. Scored against Bosnia. Scored twice against Nigeria but Rojo won them the match by scoring the winner which ended 2-3.

R16. Argentina Vs Switzland. Nothing
QF. Argentina Vs Belgium. Nothing
SF. Argentina Vs Netherlands. Nothing
Final. Argentina Vs Germany. Nothing.

But then I forgot, 10 players playing with him let him down and none of it was his fault.



World Cup (2018) - Group D (Argentina, Croatia, Iceland, Nigeria) - Page 19 Gamese10

Checkmate. Via WHOSCORED.COM


Last edited by CBarca on Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:14 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by zigra on Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:13 pm

@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:He played in the final for like 10 mins, he had *bleep* all to do with that result lol.

Don't want to hear he was managing them from the sidelines either just because he was jumping around like a moron tbh.

It is funny though, Portugal are apparently this average side yet they beat France without him. World Cup (2018) - Group D (Argentina, Croatia, Iceland, Nigeria) - Page 19 Iiam


I don't agree but even so the bigger problem here was that Messi didn't take Argentina to the final (so to @Realgunner for showing the world what a fraudulent performance that WC was from Messi). Argentina carried him to the final, not the other way round.
It was so especially hilarious because every player in that team worked extremely hard in defense while Messi was walking on the pitch doing nothing Laughing
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Post by RealGunner on Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:14 pm

@CBarca wrote:
@RealGunner wrote:Actually just went back to look at WC14 because 'Messi took Argentina to the final' bit couldn't feel any more wrong since I clearly remember him being poor in most of the matches but given some sympathy award at the end

This is the 'better than ronaldo at internationals Messi'

Group stages. Scored against Bosnia. Scored twice against Nigeria but Rojo won them the match by scoring the winner which ended 2-3.

R16. Argentina Vs Switzland. Nothing
QF. Argentina Vs Belgium. Nothing
SF. Argentina Vs Netherlands. Nothing
Final. Argentina Vs Germany. Nothing.

But then I forgot, 10 players playing with him let him down and none of it was his fault.



World Cup (2018) - Group D (Argentina, Croatia, Iceland, Nigeria) - Page 19 Gamese10

Checkmate. Via WHOSCORED.COM


fml

going to bed
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:18 pm

He wasn't doing nothing, you are taking this way too far lol.

The bigger issue i have here is Argentina under Messi being the best on the team has been to 3 international finals and you guys are acting like it's completely irrelevant Laughing

The way you speak you would think he's never been out of the group stage in his career Laughing
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Post by zigra on Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:22 pm

@CBarca wrote:
@RealGunner wrote:Actually just went back to look at WC14 because 'Messi took Argentina to the final' bit couldn't feel any more wrong since I clearly remember him being poor in most of the matches but given some sympathy award at the end

This is the 'better than ronaldo at internationals Messi'

Group stages. Scored against Bosnia. Scored twice against Nigeria but Rojo won them the match by scoring the winner which ended 2-3.

R16. Argentina Vs Switzland. Nothing
QF. Argentina Vs Belgium. Nothing
SF. Argentina Vs Netherlands. Nothing
Final. Argentina Vs Germany. Nothing.

But then I forgot, 10 players playing with him let him down and none of it was his fault.





Checkmate. Via WHOSCORED.COM


Not really. He pushed his rating by performing against scrubs or games in which there was hardly any pressure and when it really mattered he didn't show up. For example you can say sure he got a 9.0 in the match against the Netherlands but it was a dull game in which both teams never would have scored. Argentina were never in danger so dribbling a bit comes off easy. Against Belgium - tough game against an actually talented attacking team and of course the pressure was too much for him. Same in the final.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico on Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:23 pm

@zigra wrote:
@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:He played in the final for like 10 mins, he had *bleep* all to do with that result lol.

Don't want to hear he was managing them from the sidelines either just because he was jumping around like a moron tbmh.

It is funny though, Portugal are apparently this average side yet they beat France without him. World Cup (2018) - Group D (Argentina, Croatia, Iceland, Nigeria) - Page 19 Iiam


I don't agree but even so the bigger problem here was that Messi didn't take Argentina to the final (so to @Realgunner for showing the world what a fraudulent performance that WC was from Messi). Argentina carried him to the final, not the other way round.
It was so especially hilarious because every player in that team worked extremely hard in defense while Messi was walking on the pitch doing nothing Laughing


Wat. Zigra I am revoking your GL membership. Messi carried us to the final, didn't do much at the final, but the only reason we made it was him.

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Post by zigra on Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:27 pm

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:
@zigra wrote:
@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:He played in the final for like 10 mins, he had *bleep* all to do with that result lol.

Don't want to hear he was managing them from the sidelines either just because he was jumping around like a moron tbmh.

It is funny though, Portugal are apparently this average side yet they beat France without him. World Cup (2018) - Group D (Argentina, Croatia, Iceland, Nigeria) - Page 19 Iiam


I don't agree but even so the bigger problem here was that Messi didn't take Argentina to the final (so to @Realgunner for showing the world what a fraudulent performance that WC was from Messi). Argentina carried him to the final, not the other way round.
It was so especially hilarious because every player in that team worked extremely hard in defense while Messi was walking on the pitch doing nothing Laughing


Wat. Zigra I am revoking your GL membership. Messi carried us to the final, didn't do much at the final, but the only reason we made it was him.

That's completely absurd and actually a massive, massive insult towards the argentinian team.
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Post by CBarca on Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:28 pm

@zigra wrote:
@CBarca wrote:
@RealGunner wrote:Actually just went back to look at WC14 because 'Messi took Argentina to the final' bit couldn't feel any more wrong since I clearly remember him being poor in most of the matches but given some sympathy award at the end

This is the 'better than ronaldo at internationals Messi'

Group stages. Scored against Bosnia. Scored twice against Nigeria but Rojo won them the match by scoring the winner which ended 2-3.

R16. Argentina Vs Switzland. Nothing
QF. Argentina Vs Belgium. Nothing
SF. Argentina Vs Netherlands. Nothing
Final. Argentina Vs Germany. Nothing.

But then I forgot, 10 players playing with him let him down and none of it was his fault.





Checkmate. Via WHOSCORED.COM


Not really. He pushed his rating by performing against scrubs or games in which there was hardly any pressure and when it really mattered he didn't show up. For example you can say sure he got a 9.0 in the match against the Netherlands but it was a dull game in which both teams never would have scored. Argentina were never in danger so dribbling a bit comes off easy. Against Belgium - tough game against an actually talented attacking team and of course the pressure was too much for him. Same in the final.


What are you on about?

Whoscored is the objective measurement, it's using measurements you can't even imagine. Best player in WC 2014, five man of the match awards. The model makes it clear.

EDIT: You know more than anyone else zigra

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Post by BarrileteCosmico on Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:30 pm

-100% for trolling

Anyways here is Simeone's take for the spanish takers. Predicted Nigeria would beat Iceland and Argentina would progress as well as the usual criticism on Sampaoli everyone agrees on.



Interesting question at the end: "Messi is a fantastic footballer but in order to be fantastic he also has to be surrounded by fantastic players. So I ask the question, for a normal team, would you rather have Messi or Ronaldo?"

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Post by El Gunner on Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:33 pm

@CBarca wrote:
@RealGunner wrote:Actually just went back to look at WC14 because 'Messi took Argentina to the final' bit couldn't feel any more wrong since I clearly remember him being poor in most of the matches but given some sympathy award at the end

This is the 'better than ronaldo at internationals Messi'

Group stages. Scored against Bosnia. Scored twice against Nigeria but Rojo won them the match by scoring the winner which ended 2-3.

R16. Argentina Vs Switzland. Nothing
QF. Argentina Vs Belgium. Nothing
SF. Argentina Vs Netherlands. Nothing
Final. Argentina Vs Germany. Nothing.

But then I forgot, 10 players playing with him let him down and none of it was his fault.



World Cup (2018) - Group D (Argentina, Croatia, Iceland, Nigeria) - Page 19 Gamese10

Checkmate. Via WHOSCORED.COM


Did Messi win player of the tournament in 2014?

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Post by CBarca on Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:34 pm

Yes, Messi won the Golden Ball in 2014

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Post by Babun on Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:38 pm

@BarrileteCosmico wrote:-100% for trolling
Interesting question at the end: "Messi is a fantastic footballer but in order to be fantastic he also has to be surrounded by fantastic players. So I ask the question, for a normal team, would you rather have Messi or Ronaldo?"

There is no need to choose for Argentina. You guys just needed Icardi up front to add another dimension to the attacking game. The rest you know better than me anyways because you are Argentinian (no Meza, Dybala in etc.).

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Post by M99 on Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:46 pm

That Golden Ball was a joke. He was by far the best player of the group stages but thats where it ends. Very disrespectful to Higuain, Di Maria, Romero and the defence who were all vital in the KO stages when fanboys say Messi carried them to the final.

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Post by Babun on Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:55 pm

@M99 wrote:That Golden Ball was a joke. He was by far the best player of the group stages but thats where it ends. Very disrespectful to Higuain, Di Maria, Romero and the defence who were all vital in the KO stages when fanboys say Messi carried them to the final.

Prime Di Maria was the driving force in that team in attack, more than Messi.

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Post by Doc on Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:59 pm

I still can't believe Zigra saw the whoscored rating and spat in its face. I don't know what to believe anymore.

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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce on Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:01 pm

Nah that's nonsense, everything they do went through Messi and i mean actually went through him not this farce they have now Laughing

I would have personally given the Golden Ball to James but it's nowhere near as much of a farce as GL thinks it was.

Inb4 Robben who literally did nothing in the KO stages but everyone still hypes him anyway Rolling Eyes
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Post by Blue Barrett on Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:04 pm

@Babun wrote:
@RealGunner wrote:Players like Fat Ronaldo, Zidane, Maradona, Pele and Cristiano are far far ahead of messi in international level though. They have all achieved something and proven themselves.


RG, please no Messi vs Ronaldo in this thread. There is a thread of their own for that. My claim was soleily addressed at all time greats. Messi is claimed by his fans to be an all time great. Those people always leave their mark in some way even in the worst teams. Even a Ryan Giggs would be noticed asap in a Wales 11. They would lose 9/10 times but you'd notice him doing something in that team.
As far as CR7 goes, peak R9 was and still is for me the best forward in the history of the game.

"Peak" is irrelevant when it only lasted for a brief second. Ronaldo has been bloody fantastic for over 10 years now. I'm not sure R9 even had a 3 year spell of consistent dominance without missing loads of games to injuries. You can't ignore CR7's longevity and consistency. It's a BIG plus.

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World Cup (2018) - Group D (Argentina, Croatia, Iceland, Nigeria) - Page 19 Longclaw-mobile
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