World Cup (2018) - Group D (Argentina, Croatia, Iceland, Nigeria)

Hapless_Hans wrote:But hey, let's just blame Messi.

You could argue had he not missed that penalty, Argentina would've been in a more comfortable state of mind going into this game

Psychology plays an important part in sport

It's a coach's job to decide who takes penalties. Messi, at this point, should definitively not be allowed to take penalties.

We can't excuse Messi for the penalty tbf, he should know he can't take them.

But as a neutral i struggle to have many strong feelings one way or the other.

Hapless_Hans wrote:It's a coach's job to decide who takes penalties. Messi, at this point, should definitively not be allowed to take penalties.

But he's the captain buddy. The leader of the team. The leader steps up and takes the important moments for the team like PK's. Argentina's football association accepted him as the leader even before Sampaoli took the job. What do we know how much authority Sampaoli really commands in that dressing room to decide who should take penalty kicks.

Messi chose the coach too : coffee:

BarrileteCosmico wrote:

rincon wrote:Paredes, Perotti, Pastore, Gomez

He left of the creative players out

And the few that he did take he left in the bench. Banega. Lo Celso. The balls are not getting to the forwards and he brings on... Higuain for Aguero? That will solve our service problems.

We don't start Dybala because Dybala and Messi can't play together... but let's throw Dybala in anyways because they will magically work now?

Pavon can't start because we don't want him to get too much pressure.... but let's put him on when we are 1-0 down at the 60th minute (and he quickly showed he deserved to start)?

Oh and lets play a 3 man defense that we've never practiced except for the last 2 days, that will work like a charm.

It's bullshit that Messi and Dybala can't play together. Sampaoli has never even tried it in meaningful matches. Dybala looked good when he came on alongside messi. They both can interchange between CAM/RW/SS and even ST. Both are creative and both are great dribblers. It's not like you have two out n out no 9s that will mess up the system. Sure you can understand that Icardi and Higuain can't play together but two 10s in a team is not a bad thing.

His midfield options were pure trash. I am not even joking about the fact that he is playing some absolute scrubs at the WC when proven quality players are being benched. No one knows what he expected from them in their 1st big game of their lives. Full credit to Croatia and not taking anything from them since Modric is one of the best Cms in the world but Argentina started with no midfield and it did nothing but help Croatia further than it should have.

Defence and specially CBs have always been an issue. And him starting wingers as wingbacks was....never going to work. 3 at the back needs to turn into 5 at the back in a defensive transition. Even his time at Chile he never focused on that. But with Chile the player's personnel was completely different so they all fit his system. Argentina players are all different. They are far too technically gifted to play in a chaotic system he tried to implement.

So, we can say this is definitely a coaching issue?

I agree with RG on that. Find a way to make Messi and Dybala work. They are clearly Argentina's most creative players that they have at the moment. Dymbo can retreat deeper, and Messi can play more advanced.

Yes. Argentina don't have the best squad options but Sampaoli failed at building the best team and giving them the best chance so far.

Venturoli cannot find a way to start Dybala with Messi

"They're too similar"

I'm sure Messi would rather play with another Messi, rather than Meza

El Gunner wrote:I agree with RG on that. Find a way to make Messi and Dybala work. They are clearly Argentina's most creative players that they have at the moment. Dymbo can retreat deeper, and Messi can play more advanced.

Dybala has the instincts of a CF. Maybe he can play as a false nine with Messi on the right like he plays at Barca and maybe Pavon or some other guy on the LW in a 4-3-3.

Either that or Messi retires and Argentina can move on with a new chapter in their history starting with Dymbo partnering Icardi upfront. They are clearly not short of talent even if he goes.

It's about Messi helping Argentina being as good as they can be... not vice versa. I get the feeling that many believe it's Argentina's obligation to put Messi in the best conditions possible. It absolutely isn't. IF doing so would give Argentina the best chance to win, fine. But I don't think it does.

The british commentators said, at the end, that they felt sorry for Messi because the other 10 players on the pitch weren't at this level. Really? Higuain, Dybala, Mascherano, Otamendi, Aguero, etc. don't belong on the same pitch as Messi?

Argentina is still one the top 5 most talented NT's around ffs.

Yeah Sports but Sampaoli ignored most of that talent for players like Acuna, Enzo etc etc lol.

Talent is pretty meaningless when it's not on the pitch.

Of course getting the most out of Messi means giving us the best chance at success. How does having Messi pick up the ball from Otamendi at the half-way line help us, at all? A potentiated Messi makes everyone else better too. But while the coach should try to make the team better than the sum of its parts, Sampaoli has shown he is not up for the challenge and made us less than that.

halamadrid2 wrote:Brozovic-Modric-Rakitic ffs what a performance

Brozovic is really became a great midifielder

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Of course getting the most out of Messi means giving us the best chance at success. How does having Messi pick up the ball from Otamendi at the half-way line help us, at all? A potentiated Messi makes everyone else better too. But while the coach should try to make the team better than the sum of its parts, Sampaoli has shown he is not up for the challenge and made us less than that.

Agreed. I'm just tired of everyone saying they feel sorry for Messi... they should feel sorry for Argentina and all its players + fans.

Despite the awful tactics... I must say that I'm not impressed by Messi's effort level at all. Domenech was just as shit a manager as Sampaoli (probably far worse)... Zidane basically told him to f off and took over the team himself. Not saying Argentina has the same balance or talent as that 2006 team, because they don't. However, I just don't feel Messi is showing any personality at all.

I've always felt that Messi was a victim of the NT pressure as opposed to embracing it. The statistics bear it out too.

Never trust someone named Wilfredo

I don't get Sampaoli. He says the game plan for this match was to get the ball to Messi, so Messi doesn't have to drop deep like he did against Iceland. Something a bunch of people agreed on. You want to find Messi behind the opposition midfield, not in front of them.

So he decides that a pivot of Mascherano and Enzo will be able to find him.

Even BarcaLearning would have had more success at getting the ball to Leo than those 2 numpties.

He should've called up Paredes and started Banega/Lo Celso/Pastore if he wanted Messi to get the ball in between the lines.

Instead he thought grandpa Mascherano who plays in China and Perez who was awful for River and was on vacation before he was called up in the last minute could do the job.

Don't even get me started on players like Caballero, Acuna, Meza, Mercado....

Absolutely disgraceful ffs

Mr Nick09 wrote:Messi chose the coach too : coffee:

By now it's pretty obvious that Messi has no power in that department whatsoever, clearly  it wasn't his choice to play with Meza or Acunya or to appoint a drug lord as manager.

As far as ARG's lineup goes, I think Messi should be moved to the wing because he struggles to get the ball in between the lines when in the centre of the pitch.

Think this would be the most reasonable choice:

---------Aguero-------
di Maria-Dybala-Messi

Myesyats wrote:

Mr Nick09 wrote:Messi chose the coach too : coffee:

---------Aguero-------
di Maria-Dybala-Messi

Di maria is finished, and who's gonna press and track back from those players? Messi and dybala certainly not you cant play with 3-4 attackers with no work rate in the modern game because you're sacrificing the defensive part of the game which is really important now, it works in Barcelona because other forwards will run marathons for Messi, Dybala won't do that

This team is done but Argentina have a good generation of young midfield talents coming up(and also potentially Pastore reigniting his career at Roma)

Lets hope it works out for them in the future

They need to win the next game by as many goals as possible.


Bring on Pavon later for Dybala in the second half.

Dybala and Messi must play and the bald one should find a way to do that. It's a crime not using such talents together.

Dybala and Messi behind Higuain or Aguero would be a nightmare to defenses.That would solve the problem of their strikers not getting any service into the box.
They just rely on Messi to take the ball deep and make something work. It won't happen as he is heavily marked every time. Having a similar player (Dybala) close could release some pressure of him and imo Higuain is better than Aguero when it comes to creating space for strikers to come from the second line of attack.

_________Higuain

_____Dybala____Messi

Yeah both Dybi and Messi are lefties and they might not be 100% comfortable there as they both work better on the right but that's Sampaoli's fault for not including at least one creative midfielder.

There should absolutely be no chance for a scrub like Meza to start over Dybala or even finished Di Maria.

Maybe they should start as a 4-3-2-1 with Mascherano & Biglia as CDM and Banega as the creative CM.

________________Higuain
_________Dybala________Messi

_____Biglia____Banega____Mascherano

Rojo_____Fazio_____Otamendi___Mercado

________________Armani

Babun wrote:

Ahora: Reunión de jugadores en una habitación de la concentración. Piden que @SampaoliOficial no dirija ante Nigeria cuenta MP en TyC pic.twitter.com/tZhsRYLyFR

— SebasTempone (@SebasTempone) June 22, 2018

I don't speak Spanish, but the English translation I'm seeing is: Argentina players gathered for a meeting & asked for Jorge Sampaoli to be removed as manager before match against Nigeria.

If this is accurate then