Best Performances in Euro and Copa America.

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Post by Kaladin Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:58 pm

@Donuts wrote:i like this thread.


When did you change your avatar to Bale, Donuts hmm

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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:13 pm

@Harmonica wrote:Added Xavi Euro08.

Euro08 Xavi (spa) 5 ( 1 + 2 + 2) out of 12 team goals = 42% importance, champion


Any idiot will tell you that Xavi was much more important than that Laughing

Goals and assists doe.
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Post by Hapless_Hans Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:21 pm

El Cujo wrote:I like the 'involved' statistic. Tell me more about this one (as it seems to be the only way Messi stands out in production from the rest). Why does making a run off the ball to draw a defender away, but not actually touching the ball, not count as involved? What about the threat of a bite from Suarez on the defence keeping them from closing down space?

Every player on the pitch is involved all the time really. :coffee:

So clearly Messi was not as good this Copa as Suarez was last time around. 4 goals, 2 assists and champions >>> 1 goal, 3 assists as runners up. Especially since Argentina had a much better team too.


lmao that's exactly what I was thinking. Messi involved in Argentina's 3-1 against Paraguay because he gives the ball to someone in midfield. What about the other striker who opened space Laughing
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Post by Lord Awesome Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:35 pm

Not only incomplete but actual biased stats as well. Oh well, life phases end, eventually.
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Post by nasir6371 Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:36 pm

Very insightful stuff and nice job Harmonica. Involvement stats will be hard to quantify unless strictly defined. Also will not be easily accepted by most as seem in the comments. Very similar to the era adjustment ratio when comparing stats of player of different eras. But a vital tool unless one has witness both eras being compared which most have not.


Last edited by nasir6371 on Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Harmonica Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:36 pm

@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:
@Harmonica wrote:Added Xavi Euro08.

Euro08 Xavi (spa) 5 ( 1 + 2 + 2) out of 12 team goals = 42% importance, champion


Any idiot will tell you that Xavi was much more important than that Laughing

Goals and assists doe.
Importance in goal scoring is the key relation here. Any idiot can say that pointless sidepasses win tournaments, but it's easy to say anything, completely different of logically arguing about something.
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Post by Harmonica Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:38 pm

@Hapless_Hans wrote:
El Cujo wrote:I like the 'involved' statistic. Tell me more about this one (as it seems to be the only way Messi stands out in production from the rest). Why does making a run off the ball to draw a defender away, but not actually touching the ball, not count as involved? What about the threat of a bite from Suarez on the defence keeping them from closing down space?

Every player on the pitch is involved all the time really. :coffee:

So clearly Messi was not as good this Copa as Suarez was last time around. 4 goals, 2 assists and champions >>> 1 goal, 3 assists as runners up. Especially since Argentina had a much better team too.


lmao that's exactly what I was thinking. Messi involved in Argentina's 3-1 against Paraguay because he gives the ball to someone in midfield. What about the other striker who opened space Laughing
Messi ties two players with the backpass which gives Pastore space and free run.
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Post by nasir6371 Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:41 pm

Is the Involvement stat comparable to "Secondary assist" stat in hockey?
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Post by Harmonica Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:43 pm

@nasir6371 wrote:Very insightful stuff and nice job Harmonica. Involvement stats will be hard to quantify unless strictly defined. Also will not be easily accepted by most as seem in the comments. Very similar to the era adjustment ratio when comparing stats of player of different eras. But a vital tool unless one has witness both eras being compared which most have not.
I have it as directly involved with passing or dribbling in attacking move. Pass in the midfield isn't involving if it doesn't advance play.

I think this way playmakers and midfielders can get recognition also, and strikers don't steal all the glory with scoring the chance that someone else created.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:51 pm

@Harmonica wrote:
@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:
@Harmonica wrote:Added Xavi Euro08.

Euro08 Xavi (spa) 5 ( 1 + 2 + 2) out of 12 team goals = 42% importance, champion


Any idiot will tell you that Xavi was much more important than that Laughing

Goals and assists doe.
Importance in goal scoring is the key relation here. Any idiot can say that pointless sidepasses win tournaments, but it's easy to say anything, completely different of logically arguing about something.

So you bring up Xavi to further emphasis your point? the same Xavi who has scored 58 goals in over 500 games for Barca? seems absolutely legit.
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Post by Harmonica Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:53 pm

@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:
@Harmonica wrote:
@Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:


Any idiot will tell you that Xavi was much more important than that Laughing

Goals and assists doe.
Importance in goal scoring is the key relation here. Any idiot can say that pointless sidepasses win tournaments, but it's easy to say anything, completely different of logically arguing about something.

So you bring up Xavi to further emphasis your point? the same Xavi who has scored 58 goals in over 500 games for Barca? seems absolutely legit.
How many goals were he involved with Barca, surely more than 58.
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Post by guest_07 Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:02 pm

i'm interested to see if you added roman even though he was not mvp

thanks in advance to harmonica

i like your idea about involved

its better than the one that ONLY judge on goal & assist

in the old era, before idea about assist, people only interested about goal

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Post by Harmonica Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:52 am

Added Zagorakis, Zidane and Sammer. Left out the importance on goal scoring off from defensive players. Euro Best Player apparently wasn't chosen before 1996, so I've to look something else for those tournaments.

As of Zidane, again watching his performance, it's a disappointment as is his importance.

Euro Best Player

Goals (Scored + Assisted + Involved)

Euro04 Zagorakis (gre) 1 (0 + 1 + 0) out of 7 team goals = dm, champion
Euro00 Zidane (fra) 6 (2 + 1 + 3) out of 13 team goals = 46% importance, champion
Euro96 Sammer (ger) 3 (2 + 1 + 0) out of 10 team goals = dm, champion
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Post by M99 Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:21 pm

So according to you Sammer was not important at all for Germany? Why don't you add tackles/balls won so it's fair for players who contributed to defence?
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Post by Valkyrja Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:34 pm

Zidane was unplayable in Euro2000.
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Post by zigra Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:55 pm

Unplayable? Maybe.
But only 46% importance.
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Post by Forza Fri Jul 10, 2015 3:07 pm

These stats are wrong... they weren't era adjusted.
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Post by futbol Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:24 pm

All I'm getting from this is that Messi was 100 % involved in not winning anything.

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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:26 pm

Fußball wrote:All I'm getting from this is that Messi was 100 % involved in not winning anything.


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Post by farfan Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:31 pm

Messi's involvement in 6 goals,  which essentially  makes him the greatest performer in Euro/ Copa America history , happened in a single game against Paraguay . Laughing
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Post by jibers Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:37 pm

@farfan wrote:Messi's involvement in 6 goals,  which essentially  makes him the greatest performer in Euro/ Copa America history , happened in a single game against Paraguay . Laughing


You couldn't make this stuff up.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:38 pm

Actually you could, because Harmonica did Laughing
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Post by Hapless_Hans Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:41 pm

As this forum's leading psychoanalyst, I can confirm that if harmonica tells us Messi is 100% involved, in reality that tells us harmonica is 100% involved with Messi.
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Post by Tomwin Lannister Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:48 pm

rofl


Hans is probably right, but I need a 2nd opinion on the matter from Dr Moal
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Post by futbol Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:49 pm

On a serious note, the core of Harmonica's threads is actually interesting often and the threads would be informative. But Harmonica always takes the piss with stuff like:

Best Performances in Euro and Copa America. - Page 2 1JzYwJw

= "Messi involvement" and then it inevitably turns into complete troll threads which no one takes seriously.

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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:57 pm

@Tomwin Lannister wrote:rofl


Hans is probably right, but I need a 2nd opinion on the matter from Dr Moal


Hans analysis is incomplete IMO, after further investigation it tells us that Whoscored.com is a cyber dating service used to bring Messi's stats and his lovers together.

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