Why Roma, Juve and Man C, etc. continue to struggle in Europe?

These things always seem to be a curse. When a team doesnt do well for a while in Europe, they just continue to struggle for a long time and year after year for these teams they seem be just not able to break the barrier. I think there are many examples, irrc Real couldnt get past round 16 for 6 years straight, something similar with Inter, or even in the leagues like Spurs never make the top 4, Benfica always second, etc.

I think luck also play a part, for I have seen Man C unlucky this time when penalized for give for the 2-2 equalizer, or drawn with Bayern twice, things like that, which could mean another year failing to get past the group stage, which in turn becomes imprinted into the club's mentality almost. Roma beaten 7-1, very similar to the defeat to Man U. Its a bit scray how coincidences occur it seems.

I just dont believe its just purely down to them not being good enough, becos obviously they are a top team. Juve though I'm just not sure how they can dominate Serie A and fail in Europe again, is it a reflection of the league standard nowadays? Or just their game style less suitable for Europe?

Anyway, would like tohear your opinions.

Roma? They thrashed CSKA, drew away to City and could of won.

Lost to one of the 4 likely winners but so what? So will most.

Juve is obvious, they still struggle because of lack of quality forwards and creativity and width. Not the mention that the 352 doesn't work in Europe.

City isn't a question of quality, it's a question of versatility and adaptation. They have a squad which is heavily been built with the PLs strengths and weaknesses in mind.

Now they struggle because they can't adapt to a different style of play, problem is if they did get players to help them adapt to CL style of play they would lose something in the league.

It's a deep rooted issue which is not easily solved.

i don't follow much serie A these days , so can anybody explain in details why a formation that destroyed italy and lead juventus to a record 102 points suddenly isn't enough to get a result against freaking olympiakos ?

if neutralizing the 3-5-2 in europe is so simple that second tier teams are able to do it , why aren't italian teams following suit ?

system to me is never the issue unless you're playing a game that requires you to play a certain way (v Bayern or Barca for example).  You should play the system that best fits your squad.

The issue with Juve is that they play 5 defenders to cover for Pirlo's lack of defensive ability and Pirlo is no longer what he was to justify this... Machisio is a better fit.  They lack edge on the attack and ask too much of Pogba and Vidal.  Imo, they should play Marchisio over Pirlo, move to a 433 and add a winger.  Juve needs to stop playing a system tailored to Pirlo and focus on the squad...  IF Pirlo was in his prime or close to it, 352 is perfect.  But he's not.

Roma...  Garcia struggled at CL with Lille too.  He's like Wenger:  He will stubbornly play his system no matter what.  Problem is that Roma don't have elite level of talent to do that.  Against the elite teams, they need to adjust.  Garcia has never done that... so he will struggle against Bayern and such.

City... 2 problems:  Very bad luck with the draws AND a midfield that's too thin.  CL games are usually won or lost in the midfield.  That's not the case in EPL.  As Mole said, City have a squad tailored for the EPL and they struggle in CL because of it.

Because the whole league bar a couple of teams ends up mirroring Juve with players who are absolutely shit

Teams have no wingers, no pace and end up using wing backs themselves

We have no pace, no direct play and a shit, static attack. That doesn't matter when you're playing against slow motion serie A fodder teams who are just a much weaker reflection of yourselves.

Even in Serie A it looks terrible at times but we just grind teams down

Lichtsteiner a 30 year old full back with a crap offensive skillset is always in the final 3rd on the ball

Asamoah a *bleep* CM is playing LWB-LW and is similarly shit offensively.

We play with an extra defender, yet when Barzagli is out it's pointless as at least 2 of our 3 other CBs at any given time are a liability

And finally we have no creativity to speak of

Add a pair of decent wingers, and an actual left back who's not 50 years old to Juve and you have a different team entirely, assuming the mentality changes along with the formation

It doesn't even have to be an expensive transfer window to sort Juve out for Europe. Just need to stop buying *bleep* 11th choice CMs and going after 19th choice CBs and buy some *bleep* pacey, direct players.

It's an issue when the system you employ relies on width and the team has none.

Long story short attacking in wide areas with players who have no technique is *bleep* pathetic at a club like Juve.

Having nobody in the team who can constantly carry the ball forward with pace and trouble defenders is also pathetic

Basically with 2 offensively crap wing backs, a big static lump of shit in Llorente and a now finished Pirlo we line up in European games with 7 players.

That's not the system's fault... it's the managers fault for playing a system that isn't appropriate for his squad OR he doesn't recognize that he needs to play a gimmick system against a far superior opponent.

My point is that systems themselves are never at fault.  Every system can be effective if executed.  The fault falls on the managers for picking the wrong system for their squad or not recognizing that it won't work for a specific opponent.

got it .

defensive wise ,how vulnerable are juve against pacey wingers ?

sportsczy wrote:That's not the system's fault... it's the managers fault for playing a system that isn't appropriate for his squad OR he doesn't recognize that he needs to play a gimmick system against a far superior opponent.

My point is that systems themselves are never at fault.  Every system can be effective if executed.  The fault falls on the managers for picking the wrong system for their squad or not recognizing that it won't work for a specific opponent.

We need wingers to successfully transition from the 3-5-2

Juve has no TQs/10s, and no wingers who aren't absolutely finished OR 18 years old. And 3-5-2 also deploys none of those, hence the good fit.




We are pretty damn vulnerable to pace, partly because our wing backs are always losing the ball in the final 3rd, leaving Pirlo and 3 CBs trying to deal with a pacey counter attack

If we're playing our brand of shit conservative football then we can deal with it though as it really does become a 5-3-2

Short term though we need to play something like a 4-3-2-1 with Tevez and Pereyra behind Morata.

Romas squad cost like 1/3rd of that of City or Bayern. I actually think they're doing well just at this very moment.

And City actually did well the past two seasons, they just happened to be in very, very tough groups. I think it's just a matter of time for them.

Juve is the team that really baffles me a bit. Got the squad, the continuity in coaching etc. for a while, yet, when they were perceived to be at their strongest, they got destroyed by Bayern.

Not a mystery really what happened at Bayern

Matri was literally pathetic, couldn't hold the ball up so we couldn't keep the ball

Peluso and Padoin dealing with Robben and Ribery, plus overlapping Lahm and Alaba was just hilarious

a CB/LB from Atalanta and a CM turned RWB from... Atalanta was our only hope against the best wing tandem in the World.


We're so easy to exploit with a bit of common sense and hard work.

How can you rate Roma ?
It is their first year in Europe under Garcia and anyway they lost against Bayern

Anyway it is not just matter of 3-5-2 a I often read.
It is matter of mentality too.
Juve didn't lose yesterday because it had 3 defenders,5 midfielders and 2 CFs but it lost because the approach  to match was awful for 70 minutes.
Italian teams have problems in Europe also because in Europe even the weakest team , even a Trabzonsopor is organized and it attacks you with no awe, while for example a small team faces Juve or Roma with inferiority complexes and with anxiety of result , a mentality who doesn't help to grow all , even the top teams who meet a different football in Europe .
In Europe for example Juve never approachs the match so as to rape the opponents, but it has a calculating approach whio works in Italy because you can watch even the Milan do catenaccio at San Siro against Juve  for fear of losing ( as this year) , but it doesn't work in Europe for the reason said above , no awe , another football , another mentality and Italian club not used to this...

Robespierre wrote:How can you rate Roma ?
It is their first year in Europe under Garcia and anyway they lost against Bayern

Anyway it is not just matter of 3-5-2 a I often read.
It is matter of mentality too.
Juve didn't lose yesterday because it had 3 defenders,5 midfielders and 2 CFs but it lost because the approach  to match was awful for 70 minutes.
Italian teams have problems in Europe also because in Europe even the weakest team , even a Trabzonsopor is organized and it attacks you with no awe, while for example a small team faces Juve or Roma with inferiority complexes and with anxiety of result , a mentalty who doesn't help to grow all , even the top teams who meet a different football in Europe .
In Europe for example Juve never approachs the match so as to rape the opponents, but it has a calculating approach whio works in Italy because you can watch even the Milan do catenaccio at San Siro against Juve  for fear of losing ( as this year) , but it doesn't work in Europe for the reason said above , no awe , another football , another mentality and Italian club not used to this...

Lmaoooooooooo that killed me for some reason

robes

Tomwin Lannister wrote:

Robespierre wrote:How can you rate Roma ?
It is their first year in Europe under Garcia and anyway they lost against Bayern

Anyway it is not just matter of 3-5-2 a I often read.
It is matter of mentality too.
Juve didn't lose yesterday because it had 3 defenders,5 midfielders and 2 CFs but it lost because the approach  to match was awful for 70 minutes.
Italian teams have problems in Europe also because in Europe even the weakest team , even a Trabzonsopor is organized and it attacks you with no awe, while for example a small team faces Juve or Roma with inferiority complexes and with anxiety of result , a mentalty who doesn't help to grow all , even the top teams who meet a different football in Europe .
In Europe for example Juve never approachs the match so as to rape the opponents, but it has a calculating approach whio works in Italy because you can watch even the Milan do catenaccio at San Siro against Juve  for fear of losing ( as this year) , but it doesn't work in Europe for the reason said above , no awe , another football , another mentality and Italian club not used to this...

Lmaoooooooooo that killed me for some reason

it is not true ?

edit :understood lol I am writing speed ion mobile without using translate google , I meant desrtoying

It is because of chat GL tbh.

You have been corrupted, part of that was my fault tbh

VivaStPauli wrote:Romas squad cost like 1/3rd of that of City or Bayern. I actually think they're doing well just at this very moment.

Well I don't know how much exactly they cost, but if they cost 1/3 of our squad they accordingly cost 1/6 or less of City's
I insist on that difference, thank you.

I think in the case of these teams it's the way their managers play their team. Garcia just had a freak day IMO and Roma's confidence just got shattered after the second goal. Like Brazil vs Germany, very very similar actually. Good thing is that Roma are still in group stage and they have time to compensate their losses. If this continues however, then I think it would be fair to say we've seen all Rudi has to offer. Hopefully he'll learn and get better. The club that Pellegrini manages has proven time and again to be too big for him to handle. We already saw this when Pellegrini managed at RM. He's much better at managing teams with fewer egos and is more teamwork reliant. Man City have a lot of the former and justly IMO. Simply put, I feel he's not at the club suited for him. Finally, we have Allegri whom I'm still not sure what his style is and therefore I can't comment too much about him. What I can criticize about him now are the highlines he deploys when he has a slow Defense. Only Chiellini can fufill a highline tactic right cause he's quick, but Barzagli & Bonucci aren't fast enough to drop down and get into favorable positions against their opposition, especially  when dealing with quick opposition. Nowadays, in order to execute a highline Defense, fast Defenders are key to execute this tactic, as fast players are common in most everyday teams.

Barzagli is actually deceptively quick however he's been injured all season and Caceres who stepped in for him was playing excellently

But Ogbonna (Who shares the fault of the goal with Pirlo) is pretty damn crap at times, which is another thing that pisses me off

Our best CB and his best replacement are both injured, yet we insist with a back 3 even though the cover is a liability

So we go for an extra defender yet we're no better off defensively. Idiotic.

Tomwin Lannister wrote:Barzagli is actually deceptively quick however he's been injured all season and Caceres who stepped in for him was playing excellently

But Ogbonna (Who shares the fault of the goal with Pirlo) is pretty damn crap at times, which is another thing that pisses me off

Our best CB and his best replacement are both injured, yet we insist with a back 3 even though the cover is a liability

So we go for an extra defender yet we're no better off defensively. Idiotic.

Allegri

Conte would do the exact same thing, cause Italian coaches are mostly pussies.

Agreed. Provinciale school.