Do we play better without Jack?

We play worse with him in the team than we would with our starting trio of Ozil, Ramsey and Arteta, but Jack is still better than the likes of Flamini and Coquelin. He's not a starter but he has been improving nonetheless and is an important player for us.

DuringTheWar wrote:Oh dear Lord..

Dnmac Can we please make a deal, you don't bump this thread whenever we win some games, and I (or anyone else) won't bump it when we've had one of the shit meltdowns we regularly have. Yeah?

One bit of analysis to leave with, Dortmund had already qualified when we played them, we beat Southampton in the last minute when they were down to 10 men, we were humiliated by stoke, galatasaray was a dead rubber that we played our friggin C team in, lucky to get a point at anfield, and yeah sure we beat west ham Newcastle and queens park rangers.

If you look at the comments during this time in this forum, or the arsenal fan tv videos on YouTube you will see what a load of shit we've been in, with a few rays of light here and there that the most deluded among us take exaggerated meaning from.

Sue I agree. Arsenal's form still isn't where most fans would like it to be.  But the big difference is in the table and results.

At the start of the season when Jack was the number 1 option in the center of the formation Arsenal were drawing a ton of games and when he played vs when he didn't there defense was night and day.  Its not all about goals and that's why goal differential is such a key stat.

Arsenal's defense is soooo much better when he doesn't play it's insane and when your solid at the back the whole team plays better.  I mean in the Nine games you played W/O Wilshere the opposition scored 1 or 0 goals in Seven of them.

And most of the time you took maximum points.  

Kind of similar to United right now, sure there form isn't where there fanbase wants it to be but they are picking up points and moving up the table.  

That has to be achieved first before you worry about how attractive your team is playing.

To Quote a great movie (Django Unchaned) Calvin Candie:  "Now that should be your first, second, third, fourth, and fifth concern (Winning Fights). Now, after you have that, and you know you have that, then you can start to implement a grand design. In other words, first thing is first."

And don't belittle your schedule.  Over the nine games you played solid teams and it wasn't an easy stretch.  Especially considering the teams you guys dropped points to with Wilshere in the lineup.

I'm sure as I type this you will drop points to Southampton today but that's not really on anyone as pretty much every EPL team is dropping points in the insanity that is this Holiday fixture schedule.

I love it BTW, its great TV and genius marketing as the EPL gets the spotlight on there league alone for like 3-4 match days.

But I dont think anyone can expect to go through this patch without dropping some points.

This thread still exists?

Arsenal have been crap ALL SEASON period.

julias wrote:This thread still exists?

Arsenal have been crap ALL SEASON period.

UUUUUHHHHHHH........................

So is this even a debate anymore?

12 wins out of 15 games since he went down. Throttling teams left and right using multiple lineups and formations the only static is Wilshere isn't in any of the formations/Lineups.

Cazorla tearing teams to shreds from the middle of the park looking like one of the best Midfielders in the Prem, dishing out assists for fun and giving Arsenal the perfect tempo to play with.

No more midfielders out of position with no structure playing like a chicken with it's head cut off.

It's funny how everything has fallen into place the minute he goes out of the squad and Cazorla like a lot of you like to call it is "Back in form" or more like playing where he's supposed to be / getting constant burn in that position and not having to worry about not starting, playing on the wing getting moved all over the pitch to make a worse player comfortable.

I don't think I even need to bring out the stats this time. There seriously can't be anymore doubters anymore, right?

Was wondering when dnmad will bump this again. Arsenal win while Wilshere injured = dnmad bumping this.

Fine, you hate him. You don't rate him. You've made it abundantly clear. You have your reasons and your stats to back them. You aren't getting anything any more by bumping this thread. Nor does everyone have to agree with you. Others have as much right to love Wilshere as you have to hate him. Move along, kid. This is getting embarrassing now.

Guess we play better without Sanchez too.

Numpty.

srigooner wrote:Was wondering when dnmad will bump this again. Arsenal win while Wilshere injured = dnmad bumping this.

Fine, you hate him. You don't rate him. You've made it abundantly clear. You have your reasons and your stats to back them. You aren't getting anything any more by bumping this thread. Nor does everyone have to agree with you. Others have as much right to love Wilshere as you have to hate him. Move along, kid. This is getting embarrassing now.

LOL, this is the dynamic that is so insane.  I didn't create this thread, I didn't create the thread that was like 20 pages long of 75% of Arsenal fans wanting Ozil out of the lineup in favor of jack saying they wasted there money and all types of crazy things.

I'm not the person who knows so little about there own team they think Santi Cazorla is and always was a Winger.

No, I speak truth, obvious truth and it's called hate.  This is the only fan base I have ever seen who idolizes a player who brings there team down.  A player who really has done nothing for them and keeps truly talented game changing players out of the line up or in the wrong position.

It's like it never enters your head where Arsenal could be right now had they played the correct players in the correct positions from the start of the season in this watered down EPL.  

I just really don't know why pointing out obvious things about a team you claim to love is hating.  You're supposed to be the expert on your team but a good portion not as much anymore of fans were content with 4th place as long as they got to have Jack Wilshere in the lineup, if he had a bad patch blame it on injuries or just ignore it, if Ozil does who is  a way better player kill him and ship him out of town same with Santi, Flamini or anyone else.

But no people still love Jack Wilshere.  Unreliable, injury prone, tactically unflexible, bad finisher, out of position constantly, makes other players worse or takes them out of the game, scores or assists once in a blue moon and brings your team down to mid table which is one of the most talented teams you've had since the golden generation with Wenger.

But you love him.  What a good fan you are.  Just remember that next time you or anyone else casts out Cazorla or Ozil or players like Carlos Vela.  I hope you get just as upset that would actually be understandable.

Peccadillo wrote:Guess we play better without Sanchez too.

Numpty.

Even you must know how stupid that post is.

If not and you find correlation between the two OMG, just go outside and run into traffic.

Dnmac4 wrote:
LOL, this is the dynamic that is so insane.  I didn't create this thread, I didn't create the thread that was like 20 pages long of 75% of Arsenal fans wanting Ozil out of the lineup in favor of jack saying they wasted there money and all types of crazy things.

I'm not the person who knows so little about there own team they think Santi Cazorla is and always was a Winger.

No, I speak truth, obvious truth and it's called hate.  This is the only fan base I have ever seen who idolizes a player who brings there team down.  A player who really has done nothing for them and keeps truly talented game changing players out of the line up or in the wrong position.

It's like it never enters your head where Arsenal could be right now had they played the correct players in the correct positions from the start of the season in this watered down EPL.  

I just really don't know why pointing out obvious things about a team you claim to love is hating.  You're supposed to be the expert on your team but a good portion not as much anymore of fans were content with 4th place as long as they got to have Jack Wilshere in the lineup, if he had a bad patch blame it on injuries or just ignore it, if Ozil does who is  a way better player kill him and ship him out of town same with Santi, Flamini or anyone else.

But no people still love Jack Wilshere.  Unreliable, injury prone, tactically unflexible, bad finisher, out of position constantly, makes other players worse or takes them out of the game, scores or assists once in a blue moon and brings your team down to mid table which is one of the most talented teams you've had since the golden generation with Wenger.

But you love him.  What a good fan you are.  Just remember that next time you or anyone else casts out Cazorla or Ozil or players like Carlos Vela.  I hope you get just as upset that would actually be understandable.

a. I have maintained for 5 years now that Wilshere hasn't proved squat. You are welcome to hunt my tweet when Fabregas left, slagging him for saying 'Arsenal fans, you have Jack, you'll be fine.'

b. Fans are fickle. Tomorrow there will be a thread about Messi being shit, if he doesn't score in like 3 games. Deal with it. Özil has his critics, as he has his supporters. And when someone doesn't perform, they have the right to be slagged for it. But you don't see anyone slagging Diaby who is missing years with injury.

c. You are welcome to hunt down my posts when we signed Santi Cazorla as a CAM. He started his first season as a CAM. You are also welcome to hunt down quotes from Wenger explaining why he moved Santi to the wing. There was also some quotes in December. Henry was a winger. Big deal.

d. Nobody is idolizing Wilshere, especially not me. You are welcome to read my previous post again and ask for a second opinion. I reiterate : it is getting rather stale that you waltz in and repeat the same points over and over. (See, no player mentioned!)

e. People here, including me, have supported this club for over a decade, in which we have not missed more than a handful of matches. I am not sorry if your exalted 'truth' doesn't match my view. I have my own opinion and judgment and don't need your repetititve posts to inform myself. Because everyone has a *bleep* right to have their opinion, including you. Stop cursing people just because they have a different way of looking at things which doesn't match with your way of seeing it. There is no singularity of truth.

Fact of the matter is, nobody here is as obsessed with Wilshere as you are.

Now please get the *bleep* out of this section. Thank you.

Peccadillo wrote:Guess we play better without Sanchez too.

Numpty.

Dat logic though

well done sri - thankful someone could be bothered. unfortunately dnmad will misinterpret half of it and not understand the other half at all - and we'll do it all again when we lose to Bayern away with Wilshere in the starting XI

Til next time.

I'm not going to bother repeating this stuff tbh.. If he still doesn't get it, it reflects on him.

No mention in your section that Wilshere has been pictured smoking again, this time some pipe

he is in a picture with some chicks holding a shisha. Apparently that is now a 'smoking scandal', when it's just a normal thing kids do, even if they don't smoke.

Poor Jack should go abroad, the British press is out to get him as they have some strange sadist thing going on with all their NT youngsters.

you're actually not allowed to smoke per your contract... Messi got into trouble for it briefly too a few years back (although nobody was ever going to sanction Messi at Barca lol).

Wilshere is not Messi obviously.  He needs to be careful.

As a pro athlete, you get paid because your body allows you to do things that others cannot.  So it's normal that the people paying you put clauses in there so that you don't harm your body... in the US, besides smoking, drugs, dangerous activities, etc. , they're also including clauses where players aren't allowed to drink alcohol now.

Except he's not a 'normal kid', he's a pro athlete being paid millions of pounds to take care of his body and represent his teams, name and brand.

I'm not about scrutinizing players' lives or some bs like believing all players should strive to be role models but he's gotten into trouble with Wenger before about this, in public, and it makes everyone look bad to put himself in that position again.

I'm more concerned with him proving himself on the pitch but this was just another stupid and unnecessary Frimpongesque thing.

Took Coquelin, what, 5 games to become a starter and land a new contract? Maybe Jack could look to that example. Arteta wasn't a DM, he adapted, Jack can do the same.

He does have the quality to be one of the very best and to make a huge name for himself at this club but it's a fine line and one that could go the way of pissing it away if he's not careful.

/sensational

MJ wrote:Except he's not a 'normal kid', he's a pro athlete being paid millions of pounds to take care of his body and represent his teams, name and brand.

I'm not about scrutinizing players' lives or some bs like believing all players should strive to be role models but he's gotten into trouble with Wenger before about this, in public, and it makes everyone look bad to put himself in that position again.

I'm more concerned with him proving himself on the pitch but this was just another stupid and unnecessary Frimpongesque thing.

Took Coquelin, what, 5 games to become a starter and land a new contract? Maybe Jack could look to that example. Arteta wasn't a DM, he adapted, Jack can do the same.

He does have the quality to be one of the very best and to make a huge name for himself at this club but it's a fine line and one that could go the way of pissing it away if he's not careful.

/sensational

Excellent post.

but what I don't get is how it is somehow a stupid thing Wilshere did. He did nothing. He's there with friends in a bar or something, and there's a shisha. That's nothing, period. Nothing to see.

People have cellphones with cameras everywhere, it's so easy to get photographed in some kind of way, just cut those players some slack.

New title: "Does Jack play better without shisha ? "

One thing we know for sure, Jack and Ramsey cant play together.

Hapless_Hans wrote:but what I don't get is how it is somehow a stupid thing Wilshere did. He did nothing. He's there with friends in a bar or something, and there's a shisha. That's nothing, period. Nothing to see.

People have cellphones with cameras everywhere, it's so easy to get photographed in some kind of way, just cut those players some slack.

If it were only one incident, sure. And if Wenger hadn't already publicly stated his discontent (plus this whole Szczesny thing already causing enough unwanted bs at the club) then maybe. And to top it off, he's never hit the form we all want/expect him to so to see him disappoint off of the pitch is annoying.

Maybe I'm being a bit harsh on him but it's just tough love. Plus, you don't really have to pose with a hookah hose

@Rapz - They can. That's why you have consoles which support more than one controller