Re: Rafael Benitez Sack Watch - Madrid Edition

by futbol Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:24 am

Tbh I didn't post it without a hidden agenda. Proud

Trying to make Madrid fans feel sorry for sacking such a decent person. :coffee:

by Unique Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:52 pm

futbol wrote:Tbh I didn't post it without a hidden agenda.

Trying to make Madrid fans feel sorry for sacking such a decent person.

madrid fans would kill small animals for a win over barca so good luck with that. cheers

by Thimmy Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:24 pm

Unique wrote:
futbol wrote:Tbh I didn't post it without a hidden agenda.

Trying to make Madrid fans feel sorry for sacking such a decent person.
madrid fans would kill small animals for a win over barca so good luck with that.

They certainly have a lot to learn from Liverpool in terms of appointing club legends as coaches :bow:

by Unique Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:21 pm

Thimmy wrote:
Unique wrote:
futbol wrote:Tbh I didn't post it without a hidden agenda.

Trying to make Madrid fans feel sorry for sacking such a decent person.
madrid fans would kill small animals for a win over barca so good luck with that.

They certainly have a lot to learn from Liverpool in terms of appointing club legends as coaches

king Kenny did ok in his 2 spells incharge cheers

by titosantill Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:35 pm

you know i felt sorry for rafa, really did. i don't like midseason firings especially when the team isn't far off. i also don't like how it happened, it seems he wasn't told face to face. but you know, i feel more comfortable about it the more i see rivals and those who don't like madrid criticize the move. i mean it kinda reminds me how rivals of united got upset or bashful at united's sacking of moyes....granted two different scenarios, that happened in summer and utd were out of ucl. but this support for rafa has kinda made me warm up to the idea....with zidane, i'll have to see how his team operates before passing judgement

by The Demon of Carthage Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:53 pm

Not really sorry he was furloughed. In fact, I'm not sorry at all. However, I'm grateful for anything, even remotely good he accomplished while he was in charge and I thank him for his services. He wasn't good enough for Real Madrid in the footballing side of things, but he was a class, class act. And like I said before, I just love classy people. He kept his cool and kept working hard, hoping for the best. You have to respect and admire that.

He was just the victim of a bigger system and I don't blame him for anything. I reserve my blame for somebody else.

Thank you Rafa. I'm not sorry you were sacked, but I'm sorry you were dragged into this in the first place. Not anyone can sit on the Iron Throne for a long time.

by breva Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:41 am

Thimmy wrote:
Unique wrote:
futbol wrote:Tbh I didn't post it without a hidden agenda.

Trying to make Madrid fans feel sorry for sacking such a decent person.
madrid fans would kill small animals for a win over barca so good luck with that.

They certainly have a lot to learn from Liverpool in terms of appointing club legends as coaches

Well, Seedorf and Inzaghi weren't great successes either.

by breva Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:25 am

chad4401 wrote:or maybe running your core 13 players into the ground, 2 seasons in row maybe had something to do with it? and some heavy losses, but lets works with players loving him too much.... internet sometimes gotta love it .

I am sure you know more about the issue than Charlie Stillitano, my apologies. By the way, it wasn't the internet, I spoke to Charlie.

by Mr Nick09 Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:48 am

breva wrote:What is more intriguing is why Perez got rid of Carlo. On the Football Show (on Sirius) Charlie Stillitano gave us his take months ago. Charlie knows nearly everyone in world football. He also very brave as he speaks his mind even though he relies on the presidents and managers of the biggest clubs to be able to organize the off-season friendlies he sets up under the guise of the International Champions Cups in North America and Asia/Oceania. He knows Perez.

He said that Perez gets antsy when a manager becomes too powerful. Charlie believes that Carlo, while not a power hungry type and quite humble, was becoming too loved by the players. This, to Perez, is a threat to his overreaching need to be the "main man".

that sounds like bull to be honest. your guy might be knowledge but frankly i have read more plausible theories about why Ancelotti got axed.

by chad4401 Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:35 am

@breva i doubt the players loving carlo would lead to sacking, i mean what president wouldn't love the fact the the player he brought in, are happy with the manager he also brought in?

im pretty sure any president would like that especially with rm locker room, sound like crappy insider info trying to fan the flames, about how crazy and controlling flo is for fans like you to feel special.

by titosantill Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:46 am

yeah i doubt that too. there haven't even been enough long term managers at real madrid for charlie to reach that conclusion. the manager perez really liked was mourinho, and mourinho had more power than any manager he's hired. he didn't fire del bosque cos players loved him neither, that was cause beckham was coming in, and florentino thought the cool thing to do would be to hire utd's assistant, cos he felt del bosque was "old school". if carlo had won the league or ucl, he wouldn't have been fired....with the love he had from the squad, it would have been good to give him @ least one more year. florentino does however hate player power...that's something he can't stand

by breva Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:11 pm

Hey guys, I am just repeating what a person that knows Perez, Mourinho, Ferguson, Mancini, Capello (and others) and is a close friend of some of them e.g. having them at his house for dinner, believes.

You may know better, but before you make assertions that Charlie is a know nothing, look up is CV.

By the way, winning or not winning makes little difference to Perez when he perceives a manager is accruing too much power.

by chad4401 Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:10 pm

who cares if he knows them personally? that doesn't exempt you from making shit up to match trends, in fact that what most the posters do here anyway.

if that statement doesn't sound stupid to you, goes to show how far fans like you and the rest in this thread would go, if its anti-madrid which is what most posters do on here anyway.

by Mr Nick09 Fri Jan 08, 2016 4:45 pm

breva wrote:

By the way, winning or not winning makes little difference to Perez when he perceives a manager is accruing too much power.

That's your own opinion right? This is terribly wrong and there is no proof of anything like that since Perez returned at the club. Winning and losing is the only thing that makes a difference for Perez

I dont really care what that schmuck journalist pretends to know, it's theory is laughable from my point of view. But since he knows x,yz, and he probably right Laughing

by messixaviesta Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:43 pm

futbol_bill wrote:
messixaviesta wrote:What could have been the reasons for Real Madrid having hired Rafael Benitez?

I have tried to think a lot on this but could hardly come up with any reason.

The main quality of Benitez used to be his ability to win big matches in which his team was the underdog but with largely negative and defensive tactics. That also I don't think he has done even once since the 2008-09 season.

Winning league titles at Valencia may have been great but his last league title came in 2003-04. The name he built subsequently was largely built on the UCL triumph of 2004-05. While Liverpool supporters may always appreciate him for that, I think a certain section of the fans may also feel that they should have won the EPL title in 2008-09 and the main reason they lost it was Benitez. Even when Liverpool was the best team in England Benitez just couldn't get a consistent run of wins in the league. In the end what it came down to was Sir Alex Ferguson's knack of over-achieving and Benitez's knack of under-achieving, at least in league football.

What he did at Inter Milan was beyond disastrous and this summer when Madrid appointed him pretty much the first thought that had come to my mind was this is likely to be a repeat of the Inter scenario. In the end it didn't turn out all that different.

After his Inter stint Benitez had to take a long break likely because no one, at least no top club, wanted to hire him. Then Chelsea gave him a chance but they never treated him with respect. They labelled him an interim manager even at the time of hiring him, as if he was the caretaker types whom clubs appoint to handle for a few days or months before they can find the right man. Ironically this is when Benitez actually did well, the last time in his career that he has done anything well. He won the Europa League and secured 3rd place for Chelsea. He had proved that he could do a job. However since when did Real Madrid start hiring coaches merely to do a job? As Real Madrid fans at this forum have told us theirs is a club that dreams big every season.

Just when it seemed that maybe Benitez can rediscover something in himself as a commendable coach his work at Napoli was quite poor. Both his predecessor and successor have done better than him at the same club.

If you want attractive football will Benitez give you that? No.

If you want a manager with whom the squad is very happy will Benitez give you that? No.

If you want a manager who is great in the transfer market will Benitez give you that? No.

So for heaven's sake what the hell will he give you? Why was he hired? It was a mind boggling decision to say the least.

As we all know Real Madrid is a club that aims high every season. Signing a coach like Benitez is like killing those expectations even before they have been fully dreamed. It's not about hiring a low profile coach. Hiring something of an unknown entity, even a rookie, can at least excite people. It can create some suspense within the mind saying let's see what happens. Like when Barca hired Tata Martino I wasn't disappointed at all. Instead I was interested in seeing what would be different. With Benitez you don't even get the curiosity factor. You know what he is about and you know that boring and depressing times are about to come your way.

So WHY was he HIRED ???

I can understand why Perez hired Pellegrini, why he next hired Mourinho, why after that he hired Ancelotti and why now he has appointed Zidane. However I just cannot understand why he hired Benitez. It cannot be simply to make someone's childhood dream come true or maybe I underestimate the generosity of the Madrid president.

You are trying to figure out the reasoning of Perez?? As Ballaque correctly pointed out, he is a smart businessman on financial and commercial side of business but he is absolutely terrible on the futbol side. He should leave that to experts but he refuses to and thus the major problem with our club. His reasoning is pretty simple, he has won trophies before, has managed big clubs. Nothing more nothing less. The only other consideration I believe was Kloop but he doesn't speak Spanish (and that would be a major problem). You're expecting Perez to do some due diligence, have some sort of analysis of what is needed in a coach! This is the same guy that signed Bale, Beckham and wouldn't pay Makelele a decent salary, all because of what he perceives as marketability, nothing to do with needs of futbol club.

@Nick - weren't you boosting a couple of years ago about Ballague, that he was one of a very few credible sports journalists out there?

as to why Benitez had to go, it's pretty obvious if you watched any of our games. Lines separated by probably 100 metres, front three completely immobile in offensive zone. Midfield no help to defense at all and a very incompetent RB, that together with a LB that is weak defensively. He had the club beating the small teams, didn't belong on same field as big teams and struggling against mid table teams. Biggest factor was his man management (which always has been a problem). He had lost team, certainly the majority of them.

And about Zidane. He has been appointed Interim coach. He knows this lineup very well and has seen what has worked and what hasn't now under three different coaches. He more than anyone can make change in this club. But let's face facts, this year is a writeoff and Zidane is being given an opportunity to prove himself and earn the title without the word interim in front. He can do this with much improved man management and improving play that we can at least be on same field as the Barcas or Bayerns or Atleti of this world. He doesn't have to win anything, expecting so is simply unrealistic at this point. If he doesn't turn out to be another Pep, then nothing really lost, we just go after a more established coach in the summer (after we shed Ronaldo).

Thanks for a wonderful reply.

I had the same thought that day after considering everything that if only Perez found the right football people to trust in to handle football and keep himself out of football matters how much better things would be for Real Madrid.

About Benitez rank outsiders have said that they could feel a very clear disconnect between the coach and the players.

Rumors are that Jose Mourinho might come back. I think it would be a terrible move but with Perez expecting the terrible isn't far fetched. If at all Perez has ever allowed anyone at Real Madrid to have his way then it's Mourinho. For the sake of Mourinho Perez even let Jorge Valdano go. Apart from Mourinho every other coach that has worked under Perez seems to have had very little say. However Madrid don't really need such a trouble maker who will play negative, even violent, football, fight with the media, keep the club in the news for the wrong reasons and later even fight with the board and the squad, all this while perhaps not even delivering results like he used to a few years back. What Madrid need is a coach who will help to build a footballing base with an attractive playing system and young players coming through while also getting the best out of the stars and getting top results. A very difficult job if we combine everything. Maybe Zidane will turn out to be that guy. If not then they will have to look at other alternatives, both established outsiders and promising insiders.

by messixaviesta Fri Jan 08, 2016 6:53 pm

breva wrote:What is more intriguing is why Perez got rid of Carlo. On the Football Show (on Sirius) Charlie Stillitano gave us his take months ago. Charlie knows nearly everyone in world football. He also very brave as he speaks his mind even though he relies on the presidents and managers of the biggest clubs to be able to organize the off-season friendlies he sets up under the guise of the International Champions Cups in North America and Asia/Oceania. He knows Perez.

He said that Perez gets antsy when a manager becomes too powerful. Charlie believes that Carlo, while not a power hungry type and quite humble, was becoming too loved by the players. This, to Perez, is a threat to his overreaching need to be the "main man".

If that is true then it is pathetic.

I think Carlo Ancelotti as a coach has many qualities but he has a few key deficiencies as well. One is that he is not able to get consistent league form running to comfortably win league titles. The other is that when things start to go wrong the decline can be very steep. The third is the one people often cite that he doesn't give young players much of a chance. Still I don't think he should have been sacked. After what he had done he deserved one more summer at least. A summer in which there could have been an open discussion with him about what he thought needed to be fixed in the squad and giving him sufficient authority and resources to be able to get that done. There was even a possibility of bringing him back but by the time Madrid fired Benitez he had committed to Bayern. If Madrid had fired Benitez immediately after El Classico would the criticism of Real Madrid be any less? Maybe it would be worth it if Ancelotti could be brought back.

Also I think the criticism of Madrid right now is not really about firing Benitez. This guy was fired by Inter Milan even sooner and I don't think anyone criticized that club. It all started with the sacking of Ancelotti. The world asked why. Then the world asked why Benitez is the person chosen to replace him. So when we put them in sequence - the sacking of Ancelotti, the hiring of Benitez and the firing of Benitez, then the criticism makes more sense. If the previous coach had not been sacked but had left on his own I doubt people would criticize the sacking of Benitez so much right now.

by futbol_bill Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:03 pm

These rumours about Mourinho come from Junior (futbol)!!! that's absolute crap as are the rumours that we were interested in Pep. Mourinho did a lot wrong in his time here, not just with the players and on the field. people won't forget that. As to Pep, he is a certified independista. No way would either of them be accepted in Madrid. Perez is very politically astute and the last thing he would do is go against the will of the majority. His reign is very tenuous at this point, even though he has stacked the election requirements in his favor. Zidane will be given every opportunity to make it, but if not, no harm done, we will go after a more established coach.

What I find baffling about Perez is although he insists on being heavily involved in futbol matter, he leaves the basketball matters to knowledgeable people.

by futbol_bill Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:06 pm

this is another bull story. carlo insisted on playing only 12 guys and burnt them out 2 years in a row. tHere is accountability with these high prowfile jobs and when you don't deliver, you get sacked, simple as that.

Perez never has been fazed by any pressure from players nor coaches nor sporting directors. hell, Carlo is one of the easiest guys to get along with.

by messixaviesta Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:21 pm

futbol_bill wrote:These rumours about Mourinho come from Junior (futbol)!!! that's absolute crap as are the rumours that we were interested in Pep. Mourinho did a lot wrong in his time here, not just with the players and on the field. people won't forget that. As to Pep, he is a certified independista. No way would either of them be accepted in Madrid. Perez is very politically astute and the last thing he would do is go against the will of the majority. His reign is very tenuous at this point, even though he has stacked the election requirements in his favor. Zidane will be given every opportunity to make it, but if not, no harm done, we will go after a more established coach.

What I find baffling about Perez is although he insists on being heavily involved in futbol matter, he leaves the basketball matters to knowledgeable people.

That rumor about Pep was 100% bull crap. Not for a second did I even consider it.

Mourinho might be difficult as you all say but I sense Perez has a fondness for him for whatever reason. Besides if there isn't anyone else available then it might not be completely impossible given that Mourinho doesn't have too many places to go to either.

Maybe Perez somehow believes that he knows and understands football. Maybe no one dared to make him realize his follies face to face or maybe he is one of those people who think they are right even when the whole world tells them they are wrong. Smile

by futbol_bill Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:31 pm

You have been listening to Junior too much! Perez doesn't have a fondness for him. He let him go with a smile on his face as doing otherwise would have cost millions. Again as I said Perez is very politically astute. Hell Perez even smiles when he sitting next to Barca president. Next thing Junior is going to say Perez has a fondness for cules!!!!

Perez does understand finances and marketing. That's the entire reasoning behind his signings. As I said previously, his reign is tenuous at this point. He will carry on into next season, but if next season is as bad as this one, he will be gone along with whoever is the coach next season. There is only so much we socios will put up with.

by messixaviesta Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:16 pm

futbol_bill wrote:You have been listening to Junior too much! Perez doesn't have a fondness for him. He let him go with a smile on his face as doing otherwise would have cost millions. Again as I said Perez is very politically astute. Hell Perez even smiles when he sitting next to Barca president. Next thing Junior is going to say Perez has a fondness for cules!!!!

Perez does understand finances and marketing. That's the entire reasoning behind his signings. As I said previously, his reign is tenuous at this point. He will carry on into next season, but if next season is as bad as this one, he will be gone along with whoever is the coach next season. There is only so much we socios will put up with.

No I was only going by what I have read on the web and drawing my own conclusions which could be wrong. I suppose you will agree that Perez did give Mourinho a lot of leeway. Letting Valdano go wouldn't have been easy.

Ramon Calderon said that even after firing Benitez Madrid tried to get Mourinho and it's "the sacked one" who refused to come. Only after that he appointed Zidane. Of course Calderon could very well be saying baseless stuff.

I read an article explaining how it would be difficult for anyone to challenge Perez in elections for some years to come.

by messixaviesta Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:18 pm

Here's a question to all Real Madrid fans.

Who would you want as your head coach if there were no restrictions of any kind and all were available?

by chad4401 Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:20 pm

did mou not happen? did he not suck too? could you guys just give it a break.

by halamadrid2 Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:26 pm

messixaviesta wrote:Here's a question to all Real Madrid fans.

Who would you want as your head coach if there were no restrictions of any kind and all were available?

Good question.

Personally I believe Carlo is a perfect for Madrid for me with someone like Zidane as his assistant to whisper changes in his ears. He has the perfect mixture for our current crop of players to respect and also to get them playing good football. He has his issues such as lack of rotations and persisting with tactics that dont work especially in the case of Atleti but it was generally very quite in our camp with him at the helm and the only rumours there were was continious verbal fights between Mou and Iker/Ronaldo

by futbol_bill Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:35 pm

You got to look at sources LOL. Calderon is a thief, probably the worst president we have ever had. He will say anything to discredit Perez.

Mourinho upon signing demanded the control (all part of his bullshit PR campaign saying Madrid needed him, the only one - remember) and when he felt Valdano was in his way, he convinced Perez that either he or Valdano had to go. Keep in mind at first Mourinho delivered despite his antics. But after his last horrific year here and now this year at Chelsea the marketability of Mourinho is at an all time low. Unless Man U get desperate, he will have to go to a smaller team and even then I doubt if there are many takers.

Perez changed the election requirements and thus eliminated most opposition. However, if he keeps this up, there will be opposition and the majority will elect someone else just to get rid of Perez.

re your question above, the first thing that is needed is for Ronaldo to go and Perez to either stop the galactico (or marketing) signings and declare noone is a secure starter. Let the coach decide the best balanced line-up. Once that is done, then there are lots of options as to who coaches. My hope is that Raul (or Xabi Alonso) decide to go to coaches school. I think both are proven leaders with very good futbol knowledge and are great motivators. Both were effectively on field coaches for much of their time here.

by The Demon of Carthage Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:39 pm

I disagree with Hala. Carlo was the best coach available, but he wouldn't be my first choice manager or even in the top 3 contenders for the job if everybody else was available. His lack of rotation isn't something 'small' to overlook, it's a serious issue. His inability to break the Atlético wall was another big problem. I defended him when he was sacked because I knew there was nobody better available in the market, but I would've packed his bags myself if his replacement was Del Bosque.

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