Luis Enrique

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Post by The Franchise Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:49 pm

Pretty good comparison. I think as time goes you can see more the differences in two strong teams.

I think this current team, if you press them. They have an alternative, they can play directly to the 9. They can use the space behind. Even if you dont press them, if you simply leave space behind, you can get badly punished at any moment.

Pep's team didnt have that. In the early years that was a bigger threat, with Henry and Etoo, Villa first year. But after that, with Ibrahimovic, no. But they didnt play to that, when it came along it happened (often against Madrid for example) but it wasnt their idea.

However, Pep's team didnt need that as much as they team because you couldnt press them into mistakes. They were too good with the ball around the back, everyone was super composed. And they had different way to go forward, they could drop Busquets into a back 3 on a whim depending on how many forwards the opponants pressed with and the other players understood perfectly how that changes their role.

This Barca doesnt do that, they can be pressed into errors and dont have as much composure. Like I said, they have an alternative.

I dont think you can compare them directly, because they didnt have shared opponents, obviously.

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Post by Hapless_Hans Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:05 pm

futbol wrote:How did Pep get there ahead of Allegri? Laughing


Let's not pretend like Pep isn't doing an absolutely fantastic job as manager day in day out though. Allegri would deserve to be there no doubt, and Pep doesn't need to, but it's nonsense to pretend Pep isn't a top 3 manager.
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Post by Lucifer Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:18 pm

Actually he is arguably the best manager today but on basis of performance last year Allegri is more deserving candidate imo. He did double and was about to do treble.

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Post by Hapless_Hans Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:28 pm

Pirloisjesus wrote:Actually he is arguably the best manager today but on basis of performance last year Allegri is more deserving candidate imo. He did double and was about to do treble.


Agree. Just saying, it's generally not laughable that Pep is in a top 3 of managers even this year. He's performing incredibly well, it's just taken for granted.
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Post by Kick Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:14 pm

I think I will always prefer Pep's Barca, tbh.

That team was magic, something which three of the best attackers in the world can't really compete with, for me.

Although, I'd love to see what Pep could do with this team hmm
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Post by Ganso Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:50 pm

pep's team got extremely boring for me after 2011. I remember i barely watched barca games in his last season.
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Post by The Franchise Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:59 pm

Do you mean the 11-12 season or the 12-13 season?
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Post by futbol Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:00 am

Kick wrote:

Although, I'd love to see what Pep could do with this team hmm


He'd put Suarez on the right wing because "Messi always must play in the middle" and let him hug the touchline to create positional width and be a decoy for the midfielders so they can rack up 50 passes before launching an attack. The most fraudulent coach in the history of the game IMO. hmm

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Post by Ganso Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:20 am

The Franchise wrote:Do you mean the 11-12 season or the 12-13 season?

11-12

although I remember messi was ridiculous that season.
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Post by The Franchise Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:34 am

He was totally alone.

The team was ruined by Cesc and had to accommodate the useless bastard anyway we could.

3 defenders, playing him as a forward, everything.

Then I recall too many injuries. Alexis first season, got injured, torn hamstring. Iniesta torn hamstring. Villa broken leg. Abidal liver transplant.

Hardly any pace in the team. Pedro being who he is, Alexis adjusting, Villa over 30.

Horrible season for a number of reasons.
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Post by futbol Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:38 am

Still played good football tbh. The 3 man defense produced some excellent games, not boring at all:




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Post by jibers Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:43 am

The Franchise wrote:Pretty good comparison. I think as time goes you can see more the differences in two strong teams.

I think this current team, if you press them. They have an alternative, they can play directly to the 9. They can use the space behind. Even if you dont press them, if you simply leave space behind, you can get badly punished at any moment.

Pep's team didnt have that. In the early years that was a bigger threat, with Henry and Etoo, Villa first year. But after that, with Ibrahimovic, no. But they didnt play to that, when it came along it happened (often against Madrid for example) but it wasnt their idea.

However, Pep's team didnt need that as much as they team because you couldnt press them into mistakes. They were too good with the ball around the back, everyone was super composed. And they had different way to go forward, they could drop Busquets into a back 3 on a whim depending on how many forwards the opponants pressed with and the other players understood perfectly how that changes their role.

This Barca doesnt do that, they can be pressed into errors and dont have as much composure. Like I said, they have an alternative.

I dont think you can compare them directly, because they didnt have shared opponents, obviously.


I agree with you on the most part. I think Enriques team now is starting to come into its own. I would say that the only advantage Pep's peak team had (10/11) was the structural build up and the consistency of the spare man, particularly in midfield. It was consistent and was breathtaking to watch Barcelona literally pass their way and demolish teams. That team is the only team that I've felt relieved at losing 3-1 Laughing

The 08/09 could do what MSN did last season but they obviously weren't as adept with the build up as they had only been doing La Volpes method under Pep for less tha a year but they countered much more frequently and played into space, I suppose he could afford to do it with MEH.

I think Pep lost his way in his 3rd season and the 11/12 team was just a mess. He became a caricature of himself and started making strange decisions plus there were a lot of injuries.

The only advantage Peps team has over this ENriues team is the build up and the consistent structure, but this team has more 'talent' and has more 'killers'. That structural advantage has been narrowed down massively for me because Iniesta has become much more involved, there are less gaps in the MF and so the combination play can be used, particularly with Busquets now being more involved and stepping up a lot more. The build up wont improve that much from the back especially if Jeremy is starting as a CB. Masch is also not as good passing out from the back as Marquez and Puyol. All in all they are 2 great sides. The main thing here is that the talent that both the coaches have/had are extremely high.

I wish we got to see MSN under Pep.


Last edited by jibers on Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:49 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post by The Franchise Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:43 am

I am yet to find a Barca season which was boring. So yeah.

Even that horrible one under Van Gaal for the 2nd time.
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Post by free_cat Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:22 am

The Franchise wrote:I am yet to find a Barca season which was boring. So yeah.

Even that horrible one under Van Gaal for the 2nd time.


Tata Martino anyone?
And that was the only season I had a seat at the Camp Nou. :facepalm:
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Post by Lucifer Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:05 pm

When iniesta got injured we did play some ordinary football this season

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Post by Casciavit Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:07 pm

How Tata Martino ever got the job is beyond me rofl

Fraud of a coach.
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Post by jibers Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:16 pm

Casciavit wrote:How Tata Martino ever got the job is beyond me rofl

Fraud of a coach.


Messi the sporting director Proud
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Post by The Franchise Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:57 pm

free_cat wrote:
The Franchise wrote:I am yet to find a Barca season which was boring. So yeah.

Even that horrible one under Van Gaal for the 2nd time.


Tata Martino anyone?
And that was the only season I had a seat at the Camp Nou. :facepalm:

Laughing

Yeah could be. I kinda pretend that season didnt exist.
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Post by alexjanosik Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:38 pm

To be honest I dont agree with the criticism of Tata.
I actually find that Tata played better football. Lets not forget that Enrique has served up some utter dross.
Plus Tata never got to sign anybody,didnt have a proper pre season, had a ton of injuries, Messi being a disgrace and saving himself for the World Cup, Neymar first season in Europe.
And still was a whisker away from winning the league.
So I dont agree with the notion that Enrique is some super coach(he is not) and Tata is some scrub.

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Post by Lucifer Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:41 pm

Tata is scrub √
Lucho super coach ×

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Post by Myesyats Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:43 pm

I thought we were over this "Messi saving himself for the WC" BS claim?? He was equally bad at the actual tournament as before which for me proves he wasn't 'saving' himself...

Tito's and Tata's football was equally boring in the CL. The difference was leauge performances where Tito was a GOAT.

Tata is up there with the biggest frauds of coaches and he's proving it yet again with Argentina.
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Post by Donuts Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:43 pm

like it or not enrique is a treble winning coach, that puts him on a level over a lot of coaches and it's not really debatable.

tata was horrible for us.
players complained his training style was ancient, he admitted to have no voice over the players or power. opted out to play cesc on the wing Laughing
if any coached ever got carried by players it was tata and even then we won absolutely nothing with him.
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Post by alexjanosik Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:52 pm

A lot of coaches can win the treble with MSN including Tata.
Again why are you ignoring the fact that we were an incorrectly ruled offside away from winning the league.
This without Suarez(who really has made all the difference), major injuries, Neymar bedding in, Messi being pathetic and without any pre season or signings of his own.
Enrique flopped at Roma and his tactics are stone age. Unless he can win something significant without 3 cracks or build something tactically revolutionary(like Pep did), he remains an ok coach. Nothing more.

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Post by Myesyats Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:59 pm

alexjanosik wrote:A lot of coaches can win the treble with MSN including Tata.
Again why are you ignoring the fact that we were an incorrectly ruled offside away from winning the league.
This without Suarez(who really has made all the difference), major injuries, Neymar bedding in, Messi being pathetic and without any pre season or signings of his own.
Enrique flopped at Roma and his tactics are stone age. Unless he can win something significant without 3 cracks or build something tactically revolutionary(like Pep did), he remains an ok coach. Nothing more.

Have you thought what might be the reason of Messi fading out? Tata had no respect in the dressing room and players wouldn't listen to him. I think at some point there were even reports that players on their own adjusted tactics for particular games.

He's a fraud and that's not even up to debate.
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Post by Donuts Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:14 pm

Tata is also blowing dick for Argentina
inb4 it's messi's fault.
but they he isn't playing which is probably your dream alex and he's still horrible lmao
he should just stay in the argentina first division and never try europe again.
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Post by Cruijf Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:18 pm

I feel like you have an irrational hatred against Enrique Alex. Talking about what he would do with Tata's team is a waste of time and pure conjecture. When you look at what he's done with Barca however, it surely shows a better understanding of the game than Tata, limited as he is.

Tata was blindly copying the tactics of old, ignoring the fact that the midfield wasn't as good, pressing was gone, teams had adjusted, etc.

Enrique had at least the foresight to concede the midfield, put Messi and Neymar on opposite flanks, use the wings, counter attack more, etc. Tactically he was spot on against Atletico, a team Tata struggled with and showed no sign of improving. Let's not forget his man management has been spot on with the likes of Pique and Xavi, his rotation last season was perfect, Rakitic (who was his signing) has been critical, the use of Sergi Roberto, etc.

Of course Enrique has a better squad, no one is disputing that. But he's definitely shown more as a coach than Tata ever did, even if his football can be ugly at times.
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