Re: Juventus are the biggest flop in europe this year

by Tomwin Lannister Thu May 01, 2014 10:31 pm

Lichtsteiner is our main attacking outlet a lot of the time. We work the ball one side, switch it quickly to get a man over on the right

Our defensive right back...
Is our go-to player in the final 3rd...

I'll let that sink in.
As if that's not bad enough, he has to bust a gut getting back and patrolling the entire wing on his own

4-2-3-1/4-3-3 makes infinite more sense. If we stick to 3-5-2 we need a top class wide man who's also hard working. And that's either impossible or ridiculously pricey.

by elm_baraja_shaman Thu May 01, 2014 10:31 pm

at this rate, any 5 year old kid could even predict Antonio Stubbornte's "3-5-2, I and I Jah bless" system

its actually no more an achievement to beat us anymore, block us from using the middle, rid Pirlo out of the game, and force us to use Asamoah and Lich who cannot fkn *bleep* dribble or cross to save their lives.... ffs

by Tomwin Lannister Thu May 01, 2014 10:32 pm

Get tight on our strikers, cut out the 1-2s. Press our back 3 and keep within reasonable distance of whichever wing-back is free, as one will be back and the other can't cross or dribble their man

We're too predictable.

by Juveman17 Thu May 01, 2014 10:32 pm

From the Juve section:

Juveman17 wrote:There is no excuse. We are about to become Champions of Italy for the third time in a row. We have had three long years to build a squad together. We've added all the pieces, fixed our offensive line, and this was SUPPOSED to be the year we made noise. Instead, we flop in the CL, collapse at home in the EL. It's a failure. It's a disgrace. This season is a waste. No amount of Serie A titles can get me to believe that this season wasn't a waste.
From Conte's tactical inflexibility to Tevez and the front lines inability to score in Europe, to our flopping in key moments. What a disgrace.

by Arquitecto Thu May 01, 2014 10:33 pm

Tomwin Lannister wrote:Yep, some of the blame goes on Conte but in all fairness to him it's hard to move away from a 3-5-2 (Which I won't go into again in too much detail, anybody who follows us closely knows the problems with that)

Fact is, we need Wingers badly. When you line-up with no attacking midfielders and no wingers, all that's left is slow-motion 1-2's and flick ons between the strike partnership. Which any idiot can read and prevent with a bit of teamwork and organisation.

We were let downs this season, but the one positive is that it's a pretty obvious fix. A change of system and a couple of more pacey, direct personnel will work wonders. I've said for nearly 2 years now that not only are our wing-backs too hard worked, they are also asked to do a job that the very best wingers are expected to do.

You can't have a converted 1 footed midfielder and a classical right back being the attacking outlet in the final 3rd.

Imagine that was Cuadrado instead of Lichtsteiner ffs.

So, we've got an excellent core in the team, it's just the system that needs overhauled along with at the very least a top class right winger and a suitable back up to go along with it.

Me from the Juve section wrote:Will not repeat what I have repeated before. In a cup competition, you cannot play a formation to which is needed for long-term grind as dynamism and adaptability in semantics regarded their roles and outlets are needed, something Conte is failing to understand.

The midfield playing this inward, introspective and introverted play amongst themselves is only interacting to dominate games yet never actually creating beyond the spectrum unless the whole midfield line reaches the box. This flaw is causing a very low percentage of touches to Llorente and Tevez, Llorente who since the turn of the year has blatantly been told to station himself with the CBs (a Caparrosian mistake) while Tevez collecting the ball deep to make runs from deeper is a testament of the cavernous gap between the midfield and attack. Llorente will not be able to be his usual self in this archaic system while Tevez will not be afforded to roam the spaces he prefers to.

This works in the Serie A considering defences only press from the flanks while the central sit deeper and anticipate. Even then if we look at Juventus' poor source of play since January, in which the grind of results have fooled the less observant in thinking that improvement is not needed. Than we see Conte and his squad's transmitted attitude towards the Europa League in which he plays a Full XI vs Sassuolo in a league that is won, three days before the biggest game of their season.

Until he does not streamline his formation and adapt, Conte will lose even more hair than he has lost.

@Zealous: Europe has longed since adapted to formations in which width, pace and pressing is needed compared to cycle in which tactical formations would work. Rule is, either you adapt to European tactics or die.

by Juveman17 Thu May 01, 2014 10:33 pm

izzy wrote:
Mr Nick09 wrote:Portugal just passed Italy in uefa rankings

1-Spain
2-England
3-Bundi
4-Portugal
5-italy
6-France

thankfully Roma are on their way

Good grief....

Are you serious.

by Robespierre Thu May 01, 2014 10:33 pm

3-5-2 is really crap in Europe.
And it is a symptom of the decline of the serie A of course.
last 2 teams to have won in Europe were Milan with Ancelotti (the last GOAT Italian manager, for me he is the best Italian manager of last 20 years ) and Inter with Mourinho (of course another level than Mancini . he changed way to play in 2010 with 4-2-3-1 , this is the difference . I've doutbs Conte will change even after this year. New Italian managers are becoming "dogmatic" .

by Le Samourai Thu May 01, 2014 10:34 pm

#PrayforJunventus101

by Mr Nick09 Thu May 01, 2014 10:35 pm

Pirlo on drawing Benfica three weeks ago: "I feel sorry for them." That backfired pretty ugly.

Pathetic stuff, karma is a btch. No wonder he left the pitch like a thief

by Tomwin Lannister Thu May 01, 2014 10:36 pm

Please that scrub is not a Juve fan

by Arquitecto Thu May 01, 2014 10:37 pm

Mr Nick09 wrote:
Pirlo on drawing Benfica three weeks ago: "I feel sorry for them." That backfired pretty ugly.

Pathetic stuff, karma is a btch. No wonder he left the pitch like a thief

Though to be fair, he was far and away their best player in both ties along with Lichtsteiner.

by chad4401 Thu May 01, 2014 10:38 pm

italian teams just aren't good enough in general, sorry but a league where this juve team went undefeated is a joke, not even psg does that with all the money they spent Laughing

, the league needs some oil money

by Mr Nick09 Thu May 01, 2014 10:40 pm

Arquitescu wrote:
Mr Nick09 wrote:
Pirlo on drawing Benfica three weeks ago: "I feel sorry for them." That backfired pretty ugly.

Pathetic stuff, karma is a btch. No wonder he left the pitch like a thief

Though to be fair, he was far and away their best player in both ties along with Lichtsteiner.

It doesnt matter. did he win the tie all by himself then?no. Arrogance like that wins you nothing, if pirlo is the team leader and thinks like that, then that;s the message that they are taking benfica from above

so glad they lost, after losing to copenhagen and gala u think they would have learnt

by chad4401 Thu May 01, 2014 10:40 pm

Le Samourai wrote:#PrayforJunventus101

I forgot about him rofl

where is that beautiful loving footy guy? no lectures or essay today Sad

by sportsczy Thu May 01, 2014 10:43 pm

I don't think Juventus are flops... i think that Serie A is in a downcycle and Juve gets overrated based on its Serie A performance.

Also, i don't like a 352 for this reason mostly... the most important players in that system are the wingbacks: Asamoah and Lichsteiner. If teams play narrow against Juve, they are the key to making the attack work. But those guys are in no way the better players on the team. Why would you play a system that doesn't emphasize the best players?

Second... Llorente is a statue and Tevez doesn't know how to make runs. You have two tier 2 strikers. Why do you think they're going to be able to carry the entire attacking load by themselves?

For these reasons, it stuns me that Juve haven't switched to a 433. They need the extra forward and the also need to emphasize their best players.

I'll add that Bonnucci has been very poor this year, so there's no need to force 3 CBs on the pitch.

by Ganso Thu May 01, 2014 10:44 pm

Vidal has disappointed me yet again.I dont watch a lot of Juve but when i do he usually is near the box 70% of the game and I dont really see him winning a lot of balls or playmaking.I see a good player but far from the most complete/best midfielder in the world and yadda yadda that I hear here in GL.I think there are quite a lot of midfielders I'd rather have in my team

by Zealous Thu May 01, 2014 10:44 pm

Mr Nick09 wrote:
Pirlo on drawing Benfica three weeks ago: "I feel sorry for them." That backfired pretty ugly.

Pathetic stuff, karma is a btch. No wonder he left the pitch like a thief

LOL he said that? Laughing

So happy for Benfica, the fact that they gave Juventus a European lesson in defending is just fabulous eco smile

by Robespierre Thu May 01, 2014 10:44 pm

Zealous wrote:Real Madrid won a European Cup playing 3-5-2.

The formation has good qualities but it's obvious the players don't fit that system.

yes that is true but Roberto Carlos is the key in that case ... fullback with great offensive qualities one of best ever in that role , Lchtsteiner is substantially a defensive fullback who plays in midfield and Asamoah is even a midfielder

by Zealous Thu May 01, 2014 10:46 pm

Ganso wrote:Vidal has disappointed me yet again.I dont watch a lot of Juve but when i do he usually is near the box 70% of the game and I dont really see him winning a lot of balls or playmaking.I see a good player but far from the most complete/best midfielder in the world and yadda yadda that I hear here in GL.I think there are quite a lot of midfielders I'd rather have in my team

Join me my friend. I am the only one on VidalLegacy who has been vocal about the myth of Vidal.

I know we can't be the only ones ffs.

by Tomwin Lannister Thu May 01, 2014 10:47 pm

Nothing to do with Vidal, he's not a playmaker at all.

He's also playing through an injury. It's the fact that like i've said many times and even sports just picked up on it, our two key players in the final 3rd are *bleep* Asamoah and Licht ffs

Might aswell stop the conversation dead here because that's by far and away the most obvious flaw with our play.

Plus we have a 6'5 heading machine in the box with absolutely nobody to cross to him. And I mean CROSS, not a driven ground pass a la Licht.

by Zealous Thu May 01, 2014 10:47 pm

Robespierre wrote:
Zealous wrote:Real Madrid won a European Cup playing 3-5-2.

The formation has good qualities but it's obvious the players don't fit that system.

yes that is true but Roberto Carlos is the key in that case ... fullback with great offensive qualities one of best ever in that role , Lchtsteiner is substantially a defensive fullback who plays in midfield and Asamoah is even a midfielder

Yeah a big reason that formation worked was because of Roberto and Salgado on the other side.

You also need a clever striker who could operate as a number ten. Raul did that for us quite well.

by sportsczy Thu May 01, 2014 10:47 pm

Also peeps, keep in mind this is Pogba first full season in a professional league as a regular EVER. That's right, ever. He was a rotation player last season and a youth player before that. Given that he played the U20 WC last summer... i am not at all suprised that he got tired and became inconsistent. He just turned 21... nobody rates him or are pricing him as a finished product. Peeps are all over him because his level is already high and, once he matures both mentally and physically to handle full seasons, his ceiling/potential is through the roof. You can't compare him to 25+ yo midfielders who are already finished products. That's not the basis for his hype.

by elm_baraja_shaman Thu May 01, 2014 10:48 pm

chad4401 wrote:italian teams just aren't good enough in general, sorry but a league where this juve team went undefeated is a joke, not even psg does that with all the money they spent , the league needs some oil money

we were undefeated two seasons ago,
that undefeated team knocked Chelsea outta the CL group stages last season and topped a group with Shakhtar in it.......(Chelsea were defending Champs then)

the problem isn Conte's tactical cluelessness, please get your facts right next time, we have lost to Napoli and Fiorentina this season in the league so far....

#ignorance_is_bliss, valar_ignoramus

by Tomwin Lannister Thu May 01, 2014 10:50 pm

Our undefeated season was full of ridiculous draws and there was competition in the form of AC Ibrahimovic.

It's a testament to how good our defence was and our midfield is because we carried a front 3 of Matri Vucinic and Pepe to the league title ahead of a very dangerous Milan team

by sportsczy Thu May 01, 2014 10:52 pm

I would also lay off Vidal. He's been carrying a knee injury and apparently played with pain tonight because Juve needed him. First start since April 10th for Juve... he gave it all he had given his cicumstances. Personally, i'd have started Marchisio and brought in Vidal against a tired Benfica off the bench. Marchisio has been playing well. The issues for Juve have never been the midfield... inconsistencies from the fullbacks and strikers + defensive mistakes have been the issue this year.

Tevez has only scored 1 goal in Europe for Juve and only 1 in over 5 years lol. Think about that.... and he's supposed to carry the attack.

by Ion Creanga Thu May 01, 2014 10:52 pm

more fuel on this:

Conte: “The team that least deserved it went through.”
“What didn’t work was that we didn’t get that incident going our way. It’s a shame, as these games are right on the limit, Benfica obstructed us at every turn and the referee allowed them to do it.

“He gave six minutes of stoppages when we were already three in without playing, so it took us for a ride,” said Conte of English referee Mark Clattenburg.

“It’s a shame, as with two shots on target over two legs Benfica went through. Over the two games Juventus certainly deserved to go through.

“I think Juventus gave all they had. It is an exciting, but also very exhausting season, because for the first time we’ve reached the final stages of European competition.

“I don’t think we saw a team struggling to stay on its feet tonight. They ran from the first to the 95th minute. It was a strong performance, we didn’t get the lucky moment we needed to change the game, so in that sense Benfica were more fortunate.

“It was a real pity, as in the first leg there was a red card and penalty for the elbow on Chiellini, while tonight there was an obvious penalty not given. The team that least deserved it went through.

“You just have to look at the statistics. Benfica had two shots on target over two legs. That was it. They have international experience and showed it tonight, as down to 10 men they stopped us playing and I am truly disappointed the referee allowed them to get away with that.”

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