Real Madrid - FC Barcelona | La Liga Matchday 29 | Mar 23, 2013

danyjr wrote:

free_cat wrote:
With Messi and Iniesta on their top form, we can win anything and everyone, even without a coach.

Pito had some special powers then  

Refresh my memory here, wasn't messi injured for the last quarter of the season when we lost the two titles we didn't win?

Also: can =/= will

I'm refreshing your memory. Messi was topfit when Madrid came to the Camp Nou and went up 3-0.

Fußball wrote:I'm refreshing your memory. Messi was topfit when Madrid came to the Camp Nou and went up 3-0.

Can =/= will.

And he surely wasn't topfit for the Champions league and last games of the season.

Sheds even worse light on a manager when his team collapses because 1 guy is injured.

Fußball wrote:Most of Di Maria's action could have been avoided if Neymar actually bothered to defend. I wonder if he didn't because he was still lacking match fitness or because he's feeling comfortable now in the squad and doesn't apply himself anymore as he did in the beginning when he was still new. Leaving Alves alone against Marcelo, Di Maria and Ronaldo was a cluster*bleep* from him.

I dont know about half, but the 1st goal wouldnt of been avoided. Di Maria was 1 v 1 with Dani Alves, Dani gave him a touch too much space to cross. Its a small error, players can give that space 100 times and only 1 time it will end in a goal, but with our poor aerial ability the chances increase.

free_cat wrote:

The Franchise wrote:

free_cat wrote:Why Alexis and not Pedro should have started? Pedro was flawless when he came in.

By flawless, you mean, he made no mistake? Your correct, because he didnt do anything.

Pedro was extremely solid in his twenty minutes. He didn't put a foot wrong, launched a counter attack after dribling alonso , made a vital tackle,  and provided a backheel pass to Alba in the box to create a chance. Flawless and far from doing nothing.

I thought by now your pro Pedro anti Alexis agenda would end, I guess not.

Your not wrong, he didnt make any mistake and he helped defensively. However, the fact you felt the need to question why Alexis should start over him says everything to me..its perfectly reasonable for Alexis to start on the right instead of him, he plays there more often than Pedro, he has done Madrid damage in recent games and works just as hard (i'd argue harder) while offering runs in behind the center defence which Pedro does not.

Well, Pedro does make runs (less than Alexis) but you just need to tell him and he would do more. My point basically is that he is currently in better form than Alexis and he should have started instead of Neymar. Bartra for Mascherano too off course.

TBH, I really don't know what Tata is playing at. Barcelona won that game due to individual brilliance rather than tactical execution. Questions need to be asked. Pedro or Alexis should start on the right over Neymar 100% of the time. Why is Cesc starting? I mean the mf loses its shape everytime he is there and Modric was able to bypass the first press from Cesc everytime to set up a Real counter. Neymar should not play on the right. All his strengths are negated, it's common *bleep* sense. Is all this to accomodate Cesc? I still am bemused by it tbh. Is cesc there for control? Barcelona lacked control so what is his purpose exactly?

Frustrating to watch when you know what this team is capable of. Messi once again hiding cracks in the team.

Isn't it obvious Jibers? every time one of the big name stars get dropped they moan.

He doesn't have the balls to drop them long term so just packs all the best individual players in a team instead of doing what makes sense.

Worst thing is while they keep winning games with that line up ( record now stands at 5 wins and a draw in 6 games) he won't be tempted to change anything.

That's a bit of a stretch that he just wants to please everyone. He's left out Xavi against Real Sociedad and played Busquets and Song which deceived Xavi a lot , didn't rush Messi for Atletico Madrid and left him on the bench while his predecessor used Messi even against 3th division teams in the Copa del Rey etc.

I don't get the sudden love-in for Pedro and Alexis. They are useless in big games. Don't care how good they are against Rayo, Osasuna etc. In big games it's proven they do feck all the past 3 seasons. Last time Pedro started in the Bernabeu he missed from 5 yards. Alexis explosiveness comes good as a super sub sometimes. That's all.

Against Milan Alexis was invisible. Twice. Against City he didn't do anything of note. Against Atletico Pedro had some nice touches but nothing extraordinary and Alexis was invisible again. Here are some of their stats (not the entire truth ofc but Alexis is almost always the worst rated player with 0 dribbles, 0 goals, 0 assist, few touches etc. and it absolutely matches with what I observe on the pitch in big games):

http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/776581/Live
http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/776583/Live
http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/790670/Live
http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/738787/Live

Neyflop certainly isn't in his best form right now and RW isn't his position yet he was still involved in 2 out of 4 goals. Alexis and Pedro get praised for their movement but Neymar's is even better. How many times did he get behind Madrid's backline? Including the situation that led to Ramos' sending off. He also played the return pass to Messi for the 2-2. Or Carvajal poked the ball away from him but the point is that he was in the box in the right place at the right time and involved in the goal. While Iniesta scored one from the left wing. So that decision paid off as well. While Fabregas played Messi through on goal yet Messi inexplicably missed the chance to make it 2-0 after 15 minutes.

Neymar should have worked harder in defense, Alves had a bit of a stinker and Mascherano had a complete stinker as usual against Madrid. Can't complain about anything else.

The Franchise wrote:Di Maria did that exact role for 3 years for Benfica, their 442 diamond demanded this of him and he was perfect for it.

You are right.
Just that in a typical diamond,the side midfielders are more midfielders than wingers and attack more through the middle than the wings.For example,the Italian teams who use the diamond do it with normal midfielders who play through the middle and they dont attack the wings as much.
Plus Madrid play more a 4-3-3 than a diamond.Well if Benzema drops and CR goes into the space Benzema vacates,it vaguely resembles a diamond but I think its more 4-3-3 than a diamond.

I just think if they continue to play like that they are going to struggle against the top teams with good midfields.If tata reacted faster they would have struggled against us too.
Take off Neymar for Alexis in the first half itself.He would have helped Alves and helped secure that flank.Then because of Di Maria's tendancy to drift wide,we could have overloaded them in midfield(we did at some stretches of the match).
If we are smart we will take advantage of it if we meet them again.

Bayern with Pep will ofcourse take advantage.Pep will just put Muller on the wing to help out defensively.Then Bayern will just dominate them through the middle.

Fußball wrote:That's a bit of a stretch that he just wants to please everyone. He's left out Xavi against Real Sociedad and played Busquets and Song which deceived Xavi a lot , didn't rush Messi for Atletico Madrid and left him on the bench while his predecessor used Messi even against 3th division teams in the Copa del Rey etc.

I don't get the sudden love-in for Pedro and Alexis. They are useless in big games. Don't care how good they are against Rayo, Osasuna etc. In big games it's proven they do feck all the past 3 seasons. Last time Pedro started in the Bernabeu he missed from 5 yards. Alexis explosiveness comes good as a super sub sometimes. That's all.

Against Milan Alexis was invisible. Twice. Against City he didn't do anything of note. Against Atletico Pedro had some nice touches but nothing extraordinary and Alexis was invisible again. Here are some of their stats (not the entire truth ofc but Alexis is almost always the worst rated player with 0 dribbles, 0 goals, 0 assist, few touches etc. and it absolutely matches with what I observe on the pitch in big games):

http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/776581/Live
http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/776583/Live
http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/790670/Live
http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/738787/Live

Neyflop certainly isn't in his best form right now and RW isn't his position yet he was still involved in 2 out of 4 goals. Alexis and Pedro get praised for their movement but Neymar's is even better. How many times did he get behind Madrid's backline? Including the situation that led to Ramos' sending off. He also played the return pass to Messi for the 2-2. Or Carvajal poked the ball away from him but the point is that he was in the box in the right place at the right time and involved in the goal. While Iniesta scored one from the left wing. So that decision paid off as well. While Fabregas played Messi through on goal yet Messi inexplicably missed the chance to make it 2-0 after 15 minutes.

Neymar should have worked harder in defense, Alves had a bit of a stinker and Mascherano had a complete stinker as usual against Madrid. Can't complain about anything else.

I like how you conveniently ignore the goal Alexis scored in the last Clasico.One of the best Clasico goals.
Also you must be joking talking about Neymar being involved in 2 of 4 goals.the guy had a stinker and was the worst player on the pitch by far.No way is Neymar's movement better than Alexis's.Alexis is a far superior mover off the ball.Neymar has played 2 games on the right in big games and so far all he has proved is that he is atrocious there and that Alexis is far better on the right than him.

free
Alexis has had a better season than Pedro.He is also far better than Pedro on the right and is our best forward there.So yes,he deserved to start against Madrid.

I didn't ignore Alexis' goal. That's why I said he comes good as a supersub sometimes. And let's be real. A wonder goal like that is not the norm for Alexis anyway. 90 % of his goals are 5 yard tap-ins where he simply finishes a collective team move.

Yes, Neymar's movement is better than Alexis'. Probably doesn't appear as such because Alexis does nothing else except moving off the ball whereas Neymar does more. Alexis is even more uncomfortable on the right wing than Neymar. Can't believe people don't even notice that. He's a central players who thrives in the middle. In one game this season he got moved to the center during a game and suddenly scored a hattrick and played Messi-esque throughballs in a few minutes whereas before that he was completely invisible on the right. He played off Di Natale in Italy and he thrives centrally for Chile.

Just need to take a look at Messi's highlight video to see how many times Neymar moved well off the ball:



How am I joking about his 2 involvements when this is what actually happened?

Pedro, who has scored his most goals vs. Espanyol and Madrid, has scored in cup final, CL final, CWC final, Supercup final... a flop in big games? sounds legit.

@Alexjanosik: Alexis having a "far better season" is stretching it.

alexjanosik wrote:

The Franchise wrote:Di Maria did that exact role for 3 years for Benfica, their 442 diamond demanded this of him and he was perfect for it.

You are right.
Just that in a typical diamond,the side midfielders are more midfielders than wingers and attack more through the middle than the wings.For example,the Italian teams who use the diamond do it with normal midfielders who play through the middle and they dont attack the wings as much.
Plus Madrid play more a 4-3-3 than a diamond.Well if Benzema drops and CR goes into the space Benzema vacates,it vaguely resembles a diamond but I think its more 4-3-3 than a diamond.

I just think if they continue to play like that they are going to struggle against the top teams with good midfields.If tata reacted faster they would have struggled against us too.
Take off Neymar for Alexis in the first half itself.He would have helped Alves and helped secure that flank.Then because of Di Maria's tendancy to drift wide,we could have overloaded them in midfield(we did at some stretches of the match).
If we are smart we will take advantage of it if we meet them again.

Bayern with Pep will ofcourse take advantage.Pep will just put Muller on the wing to help out defensively.Then Bayern will just dominate them through the middle.

AGain Di Marias role is to cover for ROnaldo. He provided the width and also covered the flanks with Marcelo, but that meant Madrid suffered a numerical disadvantage in mf. I said this a while ago, unless Ronaldo starts acting like a winger, Madrid will carry on flopping in big games like they have since he moved there. Di Maria can't do the job for 2 against wc opposition. It worked against small teams that can't exploit it but against the elite teams, Madrid will get exploited again and again. Bayern would take them apart.

free_cat wrote:Pedro, who has scored his most goals vs. Espanyol and Madrid, has scored in cup final, CL final, CWC final, Supercup final... a flop in big games? sounds legit.

@Alexjanosik: Alexis having a "far better season" is stretching it.

TBH these are all semantics. Pedro did well when there was a system in place. ATM, Barcelona are in tactical free for all so I think Alexis offers more than Pedro, although I can see why you would want Pedro to start. Tata is just an embarrassment tbh. Cesc has not business being in that line up but Tata does not have the sack to bench him. Accomodating Cesc is isolating Neymar and all the forward lines. I wish Barcelona never got him, he has caused so many tactical problems since he joined.

free_cat wrote:Pedro, who has scored his most goals vs. Espanyol and Madrid, has scored in cup final, CL final, CWC final, Supercup final... a flop in big games? sounds legit.

@Alexjanosik: Alexis having a "far better season" is stretching it.

I didn't say he is a big game flop. I said he is a big game flop in the past 3 seasons. Including the last one under Pep.

The defender knocks the ball to Messi and you count that as Neymar's involvement in the game.
Alexis would have done more than Neymar had he played.That much is certain.And he most certainly would have made any run that Neymar made.

The defender knocks the ball away because Neymar has vacated that space in that particular moment which causes danger in the box. He causes the defender's error. And if the defender didn't knock it away, Neymar would have returned the pass anyway. What else is he going to do in that situation? We can speculate all day if the same play would have happened with Alexis or Pedro or not but it did happen with Neymar so he was involved. IMO Alexis for example wouldn't have vacated that particular space to begin with but hugged the touchline all day instead. Not sure with Pedro. Pedro does those wall passes and one-twos in central areas with Messi.

Futbol the reason people want Pedro/Alexis isn't for individual reasons its tactical.

It brings more balance to the team, more penetration, better work rate and the ability to get in behind defenses.

Also comparing last season isn't wise tbh, when you consider the fact Neymar is there now and he creates space for the other forwards just by his mere presence.

good to see you back here mole

Mr Nick09 wrote:good to see you back here mole

I'm always in here

There just wasn't much to talk about and a lot of negativity which i don't like so i just lurked.

I do like conversing with the guys in the barca section though.

Mole.

GTFO Nick, he's ours! He appreciates tactically astute and verbally well-spoken discussion partners like me.