Arsenal 0-2 Bayern Munich

Robespierre wrote:I wonder if fifa will never change the rule red for GK + penalty kick, too penalizing

AFAIK the DFB is campaigning for this rule to be changed for a while now. Unfortunately the FIFA rule commission still hasn't taken it onto the agenda for the next meeting.

HEIL MEIN REDS wrote:I think the rule has to be there, otherwise opposite team players will start wiping out another team's players

With yellow + penalty as punishment? Dunno.

rwo power wrote:

HEIL MEIN REDS wrote:I think the rule has to be there, otherwise opposite team players will start wiping out another team's players

With yellow + penalty as punishment? Dunno.

yeah then players will start doing that as a 'tactical foul' , yellow + penalty, for GK that sound OK but then for referee it will be difficult to judge again if the foul was too bad to give a red or just a foul deserving only yellow+penalty

Art Morte wrote:

Busby Babe wrote:Well, Howard Webb hesitates to send players off, because it ruins the spectacle and people moan about his refereeing. Someone will always complain.

Of course you have to send players off when it is deserved, but I find that particular red card rule - that when it's the last defender or keeper denying a scoring opportunity - to be harsh sometimes. One goal-scoring opportunity leading to a penalty and a red card. Like Ballack said in the Sky studio, maybe it should be only a penalty (and perhaps a yellow) or a red card if the foul happens outside the box and there's no penalty.

zigra wrote:

Art Morte wrote:

According to the rules, yeah. Maybe that rule needs tweaking, it too often works against the game, imo.

Maybe some players just have to learn to follow the rules?  

What I replied to Busby.

rwo power wrote:

zigra wrote:

Art Morte wrote:
According to the rules, yeah. Maybe that rule needs tweaking, it too often works against the game, imo.

   
Maybe some players just have to learn to follow the rules?   

I think a red card in that situation is total overkill. Yellow + penalty would have been totally fine. Now the club was down to 10 players and additionally the player who was sent off gets a suspension, too.

Penalty and a yellow card is far better than a certain goal. You want to punish the player/team that doesn't follow the rules, right? You don't want to give them an advantage? If you don't send the goalkeeper of it's a better solution to bring the opponent player down than have him score an otherwise certain goal.
You have to give a red card if you want to punish the incedent instead of rewarding it.

Art Morte wrote:

Busby Babe wrote:Well, Howard Webb hesitates to send players off, because it ruins the spectacle and people moan about his refereeing. Someone will always complain.

Of course you have to send players off when it is deserved, but I find that particular red card rule - that when it's the last defender or keeper denying a scoring opportunity - to be harsh sometimes. One goal-scoring opportunity leading to a penalty and a red card. Like Ballack said in the Sky studio, maybe it should be only a penalty (and perhaps a yellow) or a red card if the foul happens outside the box and there's no penalty.

I agree with what your saying about a rule change. Although, to be fair, forget that Szczesny was the last man, he had two feet off the ground. I know studs weren't showing, but that can be deemed a red card in itself.

zigra wrote:Penalty and a yellow card is far better than a certain goal. You want to punish the player/team that doesn't follow the rules, right? You don't want to give them an advantage? If you don't send the goalkeeper of it's a better solution to bring the opponent player down than have him score an otherwise certain goal.
You have to give a red card if you want to punish the incedent instead of rewarding it.

Well, if he gets a yellow, the GK can pull this stunt only once anyway. And the triple punishment is even worse as the GK is suspended for up to three matches afterwards.

Arsenal were Muller'd, Bayern are now in Kroos control.

Comment from DM lol

Winter is Coming wrote:

Arsenal were Muller'd, Bayern are now in Kroos control.

Comment from DM lol

the TRUTH, btw I am desperate to see Atlectico vs Bayern and Chelsea vs Real Madrid

rwo power wrote:

zigra wrote:Penalty and a yellow card is far better than a certain goal. You want to punish the player/team that doesn't follow the rules, right? You don't want to give them an advantage? If you don't send the goalkeeper of it's a better solution to bring the opponent player down than have him score an otherwise certain goal.
You have to give a red card if you want to punish the incedent instead of rewarding it.

Well, if he gets a yellow, the GK can pull this stunt only once anyway. And the triple punishment is even worse as the GK is suspended for up to three matches afterwards.

Doesn't change anything I said. One time is too much already.

Busby Babe wrote:

Art Morte wrote:

Busby Babe wrote:Well, Howard Webb hesitates to send players off, because it ruins the spectacle and people moan about his refereeing. Someone will always complain.

Of course you have to send players off when it is deserved, but I find that particular red card rule - that when it's the last defender or keeper denying a scoring opportunity - to be harsh sometimes. One goal-scoring opportunity leading to a penalty and a red card. Like Ballack said in the Sky studio, maybe it should be only a penalty (and perhaps a yellow) or a red card if the foul happens outside the box and there's no penalty.

I agree with what your saying about a rule change. Although, to be fair, forget that Szczesny was the last man, he had two feet off the ground. I know studs weren't showing, but that can be deemed a red card in itself.

Yeah, what makes it difficult is that there can be some very different situations and in some of them a red card and a penalty is probably deserved, like a deliberate hand ball on the goal line, imo. But when it's an ordinary foul, it's too much to give both a penalty and a red, imo. I'd rather they gave the opposition just a goal in such a situation, like Demichelis' or Szczesny's, for instance.

I agree with what your saying about a rule change. Although, to be fair, forget that Szczesny was the last man, he had two feet off the ground. I know studs weren't showing, but that can be deemed a red card in itself.

Nothing in it

Having two feet off the ground does not mean an immediate red card Otherwise, simply winning a header would mean you're walking.Two feet are off the ground, after all.....

It just seemed so massively unintentional when Szczesny hit Robben, I couldn't help but feel for the guy. Even Neuer said he didn't like the rule, and felt like Szczesny didn't deserve the sending-off in his post match interview.

I know it was the perfectly rule-conforming decision by the ref, and you can't really fault him for it, but that rule seems unfair. It really did kill the game.

Mostly wanted Bayern to win, but I felt greatly disappointed by having to watch 11v10 for much of the mach, especially because this match started with so much energy, and hustle by both teams.

Lex wrote:Having two feet off the ground does not mean an immediate red card :lol:Otherwise, simply winning a header would mean you're walking.Two feet are off the ground, after all.....

If he jumping for a header though?

Szczesny could have ended up doing some real damage to Robben's leg, if he had connected properly. It's a clumsy challenge from Szczesny. The only thing I can give him is he looked like he pulled out of it in the end, that's why it might not have been a red card (other than being the last man).

It was a tough one for Szczesny, he wanted to go for the ball in the air but Robben got there first, he was just very unlucky.

I trust Busby's take on the incident. After all, Rafael plays for his team, so he probably knows all about both-feet-off-the-ground dangerous tackles

 

He wasn't sent off because he was the ' last man ' . he was sent off because he denied robben of an obvious goal scoring opportunity  that is fifas official terminology . referees consider the following when deciding whether a player has been denied of an OGO ,
1 the distance between the offence and the goal
2 the likelihood of keeping or gaining control of the ball
3 the direction of the play - toward goal
4 the location and number of defenders

Having now been properly informed now make your judgement . I think the referee got the decision spot on .

Arsenal can still come back from this tho . Not all hope is lost .

On the other hand, it is the GK's duty to deny the opponent players obvious goal-scoring opportunities, so imo the GK should be treated differently from the field players who try such stunts.

Busby Babe wrote:Well, Howard Webb hesitates to send players off, because it ruins the spectacle and people moan about his refereeing. Someone will always complain.

Of course people will complain if a referee doesn't do his job properly.

Of course people will complain about a terrible rule.

I don't see how these two things aren't justifiable or how they contradict each other.

rwo power wrote:On the other hand, it is the GK's duty to deny the opponent players obvious goal-scoring opportunities, so imo the GK should be treated differently from the field players who try such stunts.

It's the defenders duty to deny obvious goal-scoring opportunities aswell though?

Art Morte wrote:The red card killed the game, which is a shame. It was entertaining before it, very boring after it.

DuringTheWar wrote:

Busby Babe wrote:Well, Howard Webb hesitates to send players off, because it ruins the spectacle and people moan about his refereeing. Someone will always complain.

Of course people will complain if a referee doesn't do his job properly.

Of course people will complain about a terrible rule.

I don't see how these two things aren't justifiable or how they contradict each other.

I said that, because of Art said. From that post alone it's not clear if he's complaining about the decision or the rule, and I've already agreed with him about the rule being harsh.

I'd also add to this discussion, there was a big problem in the past with players DELIBERATELY stopping certain goals with foul play, all that rubbish had to stop as it seemed massively unfair and also bad for how football looked. Rule changes obviously fixed that but I think they went too far, as their rule book makes no distinction between players that deliberately prevent a goal, and players that miss time a tackle ect. So they punish a simple mistake as harshly as cynicism which I think is wrong.

Just like with Man City/Barca, the red card changed the game. Arsenal were on par with Bayern up until the red card. Bayern definitely looked vulnerable defensively with that early pressure at the start. Bayern not being as good defensively as last season was clear prior to the match. I don't think Bayern's pressing was intense enough at the start, which allowed Arsenal time to pass and get through. Robben, again was a key player attacking wise, causing Arsenal trouble with his dribbling and movement.

Yohan Modric wrote:Just like with Man City/Barca, the red card changed the game. Arsenal were on par with Bayern up until the red card. Bayern definitely looked vulnerable defensively with that early pressure at the start. Bayern not being as good defensively as last season was clear prior to the match. I don't think Bayern's pressing was intense enough at the start, which allowed Arsenal time to pass and get through. Robben, again was a key player attacking wise, causing Arsenal trouble with his dribbling and movement.

For me this was the main reason that Arsenal were able to do anything during the first 25 minutes of the game. Mandzukic typically plays much smarter in the press, but today he was rather poor and it allowed Arsenal to stay in the game early which is likely why he was pulled so early in the second.

To your general comment, Bayern had already started to take over the game completely around the 25th minute, the red card happened around the 37th minute, but yes Arsenal were very game during the first 25 prior to Bayern settling. I said Arsenal had to score first in order to have a chance and they "failed" in that respect. How do you send the one guy Neuer knows the best (perhaps in the world) to take that penalty?

For Bayern the coaching mistake of the game by Pep was Gotze starting over Muller. I understand Gotze has been on good form in the league, but Muller is the ultimate big game player and I had confidence in his ability to pull the strings and settle the team when teams come at us like Arsenal did in the first 25.

For Arsenal the biggest coaching mistake of the game was when Wenger took off Ox. I really felt bad for Arsenal because by taking Ox off the pitch Wenger pretty much capitulated that Bayern were going to leave the Emirates with at least a 1-0 scoreline.

In the end, Arsenal played a great game early, and I really wish it would have been 11 v. 10, but I doubt the scoreline would have changed even if it hadn't happened.