Benzema vs. Fabregas

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Post by Mr Nick09 Sat Dec 28, 2013 3:52 pm

he doesnt play in the box because he is not competent at it.

once again, his faults always excused by the behaviors of others. he was so mediocre at being a 9 for france that he spent more than a year without a goal and got benched by Giroud.

the reality is that Benzema is a second forward, with a rather suspect mentality. He is a follower, not a leader, so of course he will bend to the will of CR instead of trying to be his wing man. In an ideal world, he needs people like CR and Bale making the runs for him, so he can stay in his comfort zone, in the hole, in between the lines, away from the CBs and the midfielders. He avoids contact like plague so that's ideal for him. No wonder you dislike Isco so much, giving how great Isco is in between the lines, he creeps up on benzema's territory and benzema doesnt know what else to do anymore (well, an actually smart n9 would be shoulder to shoulder with the CBs in those situations).

He shined most when played with CR and Bale. But when asked to play with CR and Di Maria, or because we went 4231 (same formation we played last season btw, and past 3), he cant score or perform anymore? is this a joke? he wasnt suffering from Ozil being a CF before, heck he even scored 30 goals once; but since isco likes to dribble in between the lines, Benzema suffers, good lord.

the stream of excuses will never end, poor guy, i bet he was born with a 433 sticker stamped on his arse.

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Sat Dec 28, 2013 5:09 pm

Mr Nick09 wrote:he doesnt play in the box because he is not competent at it.

once again, his faults always excused by the behaviors of others. he was so mediocre at being a 9 for france that he spent more than a year without a goal and got benched by Giroud.

the reality is that Benzema is a second forward, with a rather suspect mentality. He is a follower, not a leader, so of course he will bend to the will of CR instead of trying to be his wing man. In an ideal world, he needs people like CR and Bale making the runs for him, so he can stay in his comfort zone, in the hole, in between the lines, away from the CBs and the midfielders. He avoids contact like plague so that's ideal for him. No wonder you dislike Isco so much, giving how great Isco is in between the lines, he creeps up on benzema's territory and benzema doesnt know what else to do anymore (well, an actually smart n9 would be shoulder to shoulder with the CBs in those situations).

He shined most when played with CR and Bale. But when asked to play with CR and Di Maria, or because we went 4231 (same formation we played last season btw, and past 3), he cant score or perform anymore? is this a joke? he wasnt suffering from Ozil being a CF before, heck he even scored 30 goals once; but since isco likes to dribble in between the lines, Benzema suffers, good lord.

the stream of excuses will never end, poor guy, i bet he was born with a 433 sticker stamped on his arse.
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Post by The Franchise Sat Dec 28, 2013 5:56 pm

Mr Nick09 wrote:

He is a follower, not a leader, so of course he will bend to the will of CR instead of trying to be his wing man. In an ideal world, he needs people like CR and Bale making the runs for him, so he can stay in his comfort zone, in the hole, in between the lines, away from the CBs and the midfielders.

This I do agree with mostly and that would be part of my criticism of him.

However, just as you say people make excuses for him, you dont seem to show any acknowledgement of the difficult of playing with Cristiano. We have seen it before Madrid with him so its not exactly a Benzema only phenomenon.

Now I know you aint some Cristiano fanboy so thats not the reason, but I do think you overlook it, or at least have tired of saying and no longer accompany in your comments.

Laying out these facts isnt really making excuses for Benzema, though I understand what its like to be a frustrated fan and dont give a fak about excuses.

Just like Cesc and me, I dont want to hear about he isnt a centermid now, that doesnt fly with me.
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Post by Mr Nick09 Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:24 pm

Nah we are fully aware of how ronaldo can poison our own attack by his selfishness and his lack of intelligence. When a couple of us said it wouldnt be the worst thing that he leaves, we were thinking about it. But of course we are spoilt madrid fans who want to sell the once in a generation ronaldo.

It's just a thing with the benzema apologists, the argument is never about what he does to help himself, but what the others dont do for him.


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Post by sportsczy Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:39 pm

Reason Nick is that he's not an individualist at all... that's not his game even a little bit, which is strange for a CF. When the ball gets to his feet, he immediately looks up to make a pass or look for a passing lane. His first instinct is not to shoot or dribble. That's the player he is.

I'm not apologizing for anything. In the early season, he wasn't moving enough. That has completely changed for 2,5 months... even now, he's playing hard and defending. But he will never, ever make a goal alone. Not his thing. It has to be part of a team movement where he's involved with at least 1 preferably several teammates. So if he gets ignored in the collective or the team is relying on solo actions... then Benz is not the guy.

To criticize a player for being exactly what he is... completely unfair. Also, every time we change systems, he's the one that's asked to change. 4222... he has to adapt to CR7's positioning and Isco's runs. 4333, he's the one that is asked to peal off and help the midfield. Everyone else is allowed to stay within their roles. It's ok if that tactics change every season... you can build up to your role. But we've changed tactics 3 times in 4 months now lol.
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Post by Mr Nick09 Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:52 pm

see, you are doing it again. You think Isco doesnt have to adapt to ever changing schemes, new team, new environment? or Alonso with a new parter in midfield every week? or the CBs with new sets of fulbacks and defensive mids ahead of him? or Di Maria shuffled left and right and having to play with kids who have no clue how to move together? heck even CR, despite the free role tag, has had to adapt. I dont even talk about Bale...

Exactly what i was talking about, never his fault but the others.
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Post by sportsczy Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:54 pm

@Dani;  Cesc has no excuse because it's been the same system his entire Barca life... before and after Arsenal.  Same players mostly since he's been at Barca after Arsenal.  He's had time to adapt and find his niche.  It's just not working out.  At Madrid, it's extremely different.  Gone from Pelle to Mou and now Carlo.  Very different styles and approaches.  

As far as players that have had consistent roles throughout all this:  Varane, Pepe, Marcelo, Alonso, Khedira and CR7.  Everyone else has been moved around.  Guess what...  these are the only guys that have been able to show consistent form at Madrid other than Pepe and Marcelo.  I'm hard on Pepe and Marcelo for this reason.  All the other players we've had during the last 4 years have had up and down periods that had a lot to do with unclear and regularly changing roles.  It's no coincidence.

Heck, i even defend Higuain like a madman other than on this board and the other one because dude had it freakin hard at Madrid.  He's a 9 that had wingers who didn't like to pass the ball as a first option in CR7 and Di Maria.  CR7 kept infringing in his space.  He also had a rotation to deal with.  He's still trying to shake off the bad instincts he developed as a result.


Last edited by sportsczy on Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by sportsczy Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:57 pm

^^^read above Nick.

Isco has been poor imo... very inconsistent.  And i blame Carlo as you well know and not him.  I've said this several times.

Alonso has played the same role ever since he's come to Madrid.  As i've said in my post above, his position and responsibilities have never changed.  Changing partners is a far lesser challenge than changing positions.  Imagine if Alonso was asked to go B2B or be the only DM to sweep in front of the defense... he'd suck at it.

I also feel that a lot of Di Maria's struggles at Madrid are due to the fact that he has an unsettled role.
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Post by Mr Nick09 Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:09 pm

Isco has been very good but that's something we disagree on but doesnt matter.

I have also told you before, benzema's position has not changed since the beginning of the season. regardless of the formation we played, same job. It just so happened that when played with CR and Bale, he was more comfortable.

You cant on one hand say that his role has changed and then say that Alonso, who has switched from being the single pivot in 433 and double pivot with different patners, hasnt changed.

Again, this is just bending realities to find him extenuating circumstances. i am here to judge the work ancelotti has done, because we all know he has been poor, that was expected.

But when talking about benzema, it's the same thing over and over, always about the others, never about himself.
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Post by sportsczy Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:17 pm

That's just not true.  In a 4222, he's asked to sit up front with CR7 and adapt to whatever CR7 is doing... playing in or out.  Then we went to a 433 with Bale/CR7 where Benz was asked to be a 9,5.  Now, we're back to a 4222 since Khedira got injured.

And with Bale and CR7 both back now, i hope we go to a 4231... but that would mean that CR7 has to play closer to the role he played under Mou.  Will he do that?  I don't know.  If not, we're going to be a 4222 with either Benz or Bale dropping back next to Isco.  Personally, i think Benz is better suited for it in that scenario.

It may be called the same thing... but the roles are very different.  Your cues on the pitch, positioning and gap responsibilities are completely different in each case. But we can agree to disagree.
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Post by Mr Nick09 Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:32 pm

Not gonna argue about formations again, you are the only one seeing 4222.

Personally, i am not in pre game meetings listening to what Ancelotti asks of Benzema.

My eye however tells me that he has always been played in position of n9. The best he looked was when he has Bale and CR next to him, where he could freely deep in the middle without carrying the burden of scoring, but looked rubbish when he had to lead the line more traditionally.

Gosh, must be hard for a CF to lead the line. But then again, you cant brag about benzema being such a talented player that can play everything from 9, 9.5, 9.75 and 10, and then complain of his performances when he is actually "Asked" to do it.
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Post by VanDeezNuts Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:52 pm

Why is Benzema the only one who plays poorly because of Ronaldo. I have yet to see ANYONE say Bale is suffering, Di maria is suffering, Isco is suffering, Morata is suffering etc. because of Ronaldo.

Everyone seems able to adapt to these Ronaldo centric and other formational changes except Benzema. Or at least he is the only one who gets excused.

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Post by sportsczy Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:13 pm

CFs and the LBs suffer due to Ronaldo.

Namely, Rooney, Higuain, Benzema, Marcelo and Coentrao.  Only player that was able to handle it was Evra in his prime.  He was the best LB in the world back then... so he didn't need any help.

I can just see Madrid fans lamenting how poor Rooney would be if he was here.  Because remember, Rooney could barely get to 20 goals while CR7 was there in all comps.  He only exploded once CR7 was gone...

and i'm not even completely blaming Ronaldo here.  We had a formula that was working to perfection....  a 433 for about 5-6 weeks.  Khedira goes down and we reverted to this stupid 4222 or 442 where we've lost all width and everyone is jammed in the middle of the pitch.

@Nick. Benz was never a good 9 in his entire life. Never played it at Lyon. And he's been average at it in Madrid. There's nothing more to say about that.
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Post by Mr Nick09 Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:20 pm

Sadly, even when Rooney played with CR at united back then, he was appreciated for the all around player he was. I dont recall the debate ever being that Rooney couldnt perform because of Ronaldo. But then again, we should probably not compare Rooney and benzema, not even the same class of players.
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Post by moutinho98 Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:32 pm

lol the french bias of dis guy is hilarious. evra the only lb that played well with CR7? Laughing
blame CR7 all u want..flopzemas falts are belong to him. if anything CR7 provides himwwith passing options etc so why did ozil enjoyed playing behind him and so called passer benzema doesnt?
u even fail@ your own excuses.
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Post by chad4401 Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:41 pm

benzema has some faults true, i blame him when he misses some tap ins or when he is not running enough and maybe he even passes too much, but that about it, but you can't blame him for the selfishness of other players (di maria isco and cr) as dani said "there is a strange dislike for benzema". i noticed it a long time ago, so when he leaves and a new strikers comes and fails to live up to the hype then you can all stfu and talk about the real issues on the team.
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Post by sportsczy Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:24 pm

Isco isn't selfish... he's a 10 in a setup that doesn't need a 10. Trying to be a CM and his instincts aren't there for it at this time. He could develop into the role.... but he has even farther to go than Ozil in that regards.
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Post by chad4401 Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:46 pm

Isco is a dribbler,shooter and then passer needs to reshuffle that order, maybe he isn't that selfish as cr but he makes a lot of wrong decisions since he is out to impress and his overall passing isn't that impressive anyway.

Don't get me wrong he can still develop and be a WC midfielder my only issues I have with him is his positioning and his decision making some of it is on Carlo tho.
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Post by Mr Nick09 Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:52 pm

Here we go again. It's ok for Benzema to adandon his CF duties and to play deep because he is so cool, new platini and all, but Shame on Isco for playing, dribbling and creating in the hole. What a dummy he is to even dare make runs inside the box and to shoot on goal.

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Post by futbol Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:56 pm

But what about Fabregas? hmm

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Post by VanDeezNuts Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:22 pm

futbol wrote:But what about Fabregas? hmm

What on earth does Fabregas have to do with a Benzema v Fabregas thread?

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Post by chad4401 Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:39 pm

Nick you know i have said benzema should focus on his goal scoring more than his play making just like i said isco should focus more on his midfield role than being another attacker, not saying he can't try things but he has to pick his moments.

Matter a fact that been Madrid main problem, our players are not picking their moments cause they lack team work and unity, everyone believe scoring/assisting=playing well/had a good game, that why di maria can play like rubbish but scores a goal and gets a free pass as long as he scores, same for cr and isco that why we always lose the critical games fact
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Post by FennecFox7 Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:37 pm

Sport and chad. i like both of yall

but listen. benz isnt your brother. He's a good dude and some of the criticism he gets is stupid. a player like benzema doesnt need to always score unlike higuain..

But i cant believe you guys are defending him to these lengths.. they are good arguments but in the end, why would we accommodate for an inferior player in benzema when cr is 1000x better? explain that to me.
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Post by sportsczy Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:40 pm

I think he should go Giggs... we shouldn't accomodate any player that wouldn't make the team better. That's very clear. What i take exception to is calling a player "crap", etc. when it's clearly untrue. Robben, Sneijder, Higuain, etc get the benefit of the doubt (and rightly so) yet Benzema shouldn't? That's my only problem.

I've wanted him out of Madrid going to 2 years now for his own good.
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Post by chad4401 Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:47 pm

Giggity5313 wrote:Sport and chad. i like both of yall

but listen. benz isnt your brother. He's a good dude and some of the criticism he gets is stupid. a player like benzema doesnt need to always score unlike higuain..

But i cant believe you guys are defending him to these lengths.. they are good arguments but in the end, why would we accommodate for an inferior player in benzema when cr is 1000x better? explain that to me.

giggity wise up dude 3 attackers vs 2 defenders and cr had to pick either jese or benzema, but he shoot right at the defender instead, how can you praise someone for that? what kind of message does that to send to your teammates?  its those elementary mistakes cr always does and gets a free pass for that kills us and no amount of new players will fix that.

CR is 28 and still plays like he its his first game at united he needs to grow up and stop playing for himself.

Also tired of cr being the best player so he can act brain dead all he wants argument, i want to play like a team and not cr and his workers. We played our best football the 3 weeks he was out and we played our worst when he came back.
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Post by Mr Nick09 Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:00 pm

who gave a free pass to CR for that? we all said it was stupid, but you keep insisting on that.

just like most fans understand that signing a new CF wouldnt automatically translate to trophies.

the only problem i see here is, when someone call Benzema crap (for madrid standards) or just a good player and nothing special, you guys argue so much that it feels like we are talking about a Messi potential player, that's being limited by CR, Isco, Di Maria, etc... come on now.
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