Benzema vs. Fabregas

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Post by sportsczy Thu Dec 26, 2013 1:19 pm

you see, i personally never had a problem with Benzema or Higuain.  I preferred Benz over Higuain stylistically... but that was a personal choice.  As far as play went, i thought they both did everything they could given the circumstances they were given.

i never blamed them for our issues because they managed to combine for 40-60+ goals the 2 seasons they were both healthy and playing while being 20+% efficient.  Combined for 10-20+ assists from the CF position too.  To me, that was unbelievable output given that they weren't the primary goalscorers ever. At least the CF position was the secondary scoring one with Benguain. With BBC, the CF spot has dropped to the third scoring option.

The blame game on our CFs is something you and other Madrid fans liked to play because it was convenient... it had no basis in fact.  I always, always blamed CR7's selfishness and the managers who cultivated this selfishness to the detriment of overall team performance.

I also felt that our midfield meh-ness and defensive inconsistencies were the other issues along with the system-driven CR7 dependence.

My criticism has been consistent...  which is why i'm disappointed in Carlo.  He's allowing these failures to continue when he had the chance to address them as the new manager.

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Post by Mr Nick09 Thu Dec 26, 2013 1:43 pm

whoever blame the CFs for all our shortcomings is an idiot, let me say that. But Benzema is accountable for his own shortcomings, which is something that you always excuse him off. Carlo gave him a starting job, trust against criticism, but Benzema is what he is.

You dont criticize him, you always criticize everything around him tho, CR because he is selfish, Ancelotti because he changes the system. Poor Ancelotti using the same 4231 we played for 3 years with mourinho.

When Benzema is scoring we eat crows, when he revert back to his inner shittiness again, it's because of CR or Carlo. The first 9.75 of our era is never to blame for anything ofc.
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Post by sportsczy Thu Dec 26, 2013 2:13 pm

i don't blame him for the team issues because Benz is not a focus of the team... because of his diminished role, he can only add to the play, he can't cause our play to be ineffective. At worse, he becomes inconsequential, not detrimental.

In the early season, i thought he was poor... like everyone else. My thought at the time was that everyone needed to adapt to the new manager. i advocated patience EXCEPT in the midfield because we needed to do something there and quick... it was awful lol. My sense was that once our midfield settled, so would everything else.

Since then, Alonso returned and our midfield settled. Benz' work rate has picked up dramatically and that hasn't dropped since. When we were in a 433 he was fantastic. Once we changed back to a 4222, his output has dropped but his workrate hasn't. He's making the runs and being ignored because CR7 is competing for the goal scoring record with Costa... i'm sure you noticed that too. CR7 is messing up the spacing and the CF, Benz or someone else, isn't sure where to go.

I will criticize him now if he stops running or if he misses a lot of makeable chances in a game. But that hasn't happened yet. You can't blame a player who is playing hard but doesn't get the ball despite getting in good positions. Being ignored is not cause for criticism imo.

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Post by VanDeezNuts Thu Dec 26, 2013 2:16 pm

The first rule of Benzema club: you do not talk about Benzema's faults. Second rule of Benzema club: you do NOT talk about Benzema's faults.

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Post by moutinho98 Thu Dec 26, 2013 2:30 pm

ffs hows this muppet defending flopzema at expense of CR7 :facepalm:
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Post by Mr Nick09 Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:21 pm

like i said, benzema is never to be blamed for anything. Even when he is poor, it has to be that the rest of the team is poor Laughing

Benzema the great 9.75 :bow: i am sure we will eat crows again soon.
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Post by chad4401 Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:50 pm

I love how you guys ignore the fact isco and di maria are selfish too and only pass when cr is near, if they were feeding benz instead of dribbling and random shots then fine criticize all you want, but that not the case and you all know this, the fact you guys can't even acknowledge that as a factor makes this whole debate meaningless.

benzema was scoring when cr,di maria and isco off the pitch, but with all 3 on the team he can't even get a sniff, but lets just put that all on benzema.

When suarez comes im gonna love the excuses when things continue in the same fashion there is only 1 ball
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Post by danyjr Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:52 pm

chad4401 wrote:When suarez comes im gonna love the excuses when things continue in the same fashion there is only 1 ball
He won't unless you pay more millions than you did for Bale Proud
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Post by chad4401 Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:56 pm

I could careless about suarez since i know the real problem isn't cf, but the guy who needs to take 12 shots just to get a brace Laughing

edit: Also Cristiano scored 18 goals from 123 shots in La Liga this season [14.6% conversion rate]
Diego Costa 19 goals from 57 shots = 33.3%

I wonder why we are 3rd hmm its surely benzema fault right? scratch 


Last edited by chad4401 on Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:03 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by The Franchise Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:57 pm

Valkyrja wrote:
The Franchise wrote:Yeah, Benzema...not the selfish play/big game floppage from the superstar, nor the questionable midfield or even that brainfart backline minus Varane....its Benzema.

Laughing

are you stucked in 2010 ? Laughing

btw, the midfield isn't questionable anymore


I guess I watched a different Dortmund tie last year then.
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Post by sportsczy Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:43 pm

Mr Nick09 wrote:like i said, benzema is never to be blamed for anything. Even when he is poor, it has to be that the rest of the team is poor Laughing

Benzema the great 9.75 🙇i am sure we will eat crows again soon.
Yes you will. You'll never need to go hungry.
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Post by Hawky Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:37 pm

IMO Fabregas is having a normal season, he always performed better for Barca in the first part of the season. His problem is his inconsistency, but of the three CMs (Xavi, Iniesta, Fab) he has certainly been the better one this season and, overall, I believe he was a useful addition in our squad.

Benzema I haven't watched that often, but I only really rated him at OL and in his first season at RM and always considered Higuain to be a better option upfront and Benz to be the supersub.
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Post by chad4401 Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:59 pm

yes we all know 10 cl goals higuain>benz with 33 cl goals Laughing, anyway still waiting for a striker that played at their maximum level with cr since benzema is the exception
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Post by sportsczy Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:02 pm

The fact that you rated him his first season at Madrid shows a lot actually Laughing Not to mention that you saw him as a supersub rather than a starter when Higuain was here following the above statement  Laughing Laughing
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Post by Zealous Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:49 pm

chad4401 wrote:yes we all know 10 cl goals higuain>benz with 33 cl goals Laughing, anyway still waiting for a striker that played at their maximum level with cr since benzema is the exception

Higuain is with out a doubt better than Benzema at the moment. The CL myth has finally died Proud

Higuain had a foot in 60% of Napoli's goals in the CL group of death in which his team got knocked out despite getting 12 points. Benzema on the other hand was basically anonymous. His two goals came against a terrible Galatasaray team and he has been anonymous since then.

Also the only reason Benzema looks good is because of Ronaldo, Benzema's maximum level is playing in Ligue 1 where there no pressure to do anything other than get fat and crash cars.

BRB Higuain already a hero in Napoli, still beloved by Maridismo.

BRB Benzema will be booed to shit at the next home game when he is subbed for Moarata at the 87th minute despite doing nothing all game. Proud
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Fri Dec 27, 2013 10:29 pm

As far as French strikers are concerned I think it's quite clear that on current form it's Higuain > Giroud > Benz.

Benzema vs. Fabregas - Page 3 Trolldolski
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Post by sportsczy Fri Dec 27, 2013 10:50 pm

In terms of waistline, i agree. Higuain has the biggest gut of the three. That's about it though  Afro 
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Post by M99 Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:55 am

BC is absolutely right lol. Higuain has been better than both Benzema and Giroud this season.
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Post by the xcx Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:00 am

Both of them are mediocre. Ibra, Suarez and Kun, now those 3 hold a pedigree as an WC forward.
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Post by sportsczy Sat Dec 28, 2013 8:16 am

Higuain better than Benz Laughing.  

So let's see.  Higuain has 13 goals, 4 from pk, and 6 assists in 19 starts...  while being the top scoring option for Napoli.

Benz has 10 goals, no Pks, and 8 assists in 20 starts while being the 3rd option for Madrid with Bale's arrival.

I'll give my critical analysis of both because they're both hot and cold depending on the game:

Higuain - He spent the last 4 years at Madrid learning to play second fiddle and play a very specific role.  Being a top dog is very different.  He's being too shy on the pitch... he needs to demand the ball.  Instead, he's mostly just playing within the flow of the game, which is fine if the team is playing well.  But when the team needs a lift, it's his job now to pick them up.  He hasn't done that.

Benz - CF role went from second option the last 4 years to 3rd option.  Also, Isco is much more of a scoring 10 than Ozil ever was.  As a result, Benz was truly very good when Isco wasn't playing because he could exist in the provider role...  Now that Khedira went down and we're reverted to a 4222 with Isco, he doesn't know what he's supposed to be doing out there.  Doesn't help that in CL and La Liga, CR7 went on personal scoring quest as opposed to playing for the team over the past month.  I don't know what his role is tbh.  For me, either Isco or Benz has to sit.  You can't play them in addition to CR7 and Bale.  Too many guys who want to score.
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Post by Hawky Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:38 am

Sorry, I got it all wrong with Benzema's first season, my bad. I still think that he was more dangerous as an impact sub, see the Real Madrid - Manchester City game last year. His figures are pretty impressive in his second and third season.

Like in Fab's case, I think the problems for Benzema are not the goals and assists provided, but the overall game and inconsistency.

Btw, I'm not buying that 3rd option thing sportsczy, he is first option striker right now with only Morata as direct competition and playing alongside arguably the best two goal-scoring wingers in the world. He should contribute more and be more visible in Madrid's game, even if he doesn't score as much as the other two.

In the end, it could also be a tactical issue as you say - and so we come back to one of the first ideas expressed here: that both Fab and Benz are quality players which don't fit into their teams' current systems.
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Post by sportsczy Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:49 am

No he's not Hawky.  

It's actually pretty clear:

CR7 - 154 shots in 20 games (all starts) Laughing- 7,7 shots per game started
Bale - 41 shots in 15 games (11 starts) - 3,7 shots per game started
Benz - 52 shots in 21 games (19 starts) - 2,7 shots per game started

He's clearly the third option.  You see it clearly in the way we play.  CR7 get force fed and Bale is crashing from the other side as the second option.  Benz is only looked at if those 2 aren't available.

I know Dani watches the games.  He'll confirm.
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Post by The Franchise Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:01 pm

I can confirm.

Seriously, as I already said I have a problem with some of the things Benzema does out there but there does seem to be a strange dislike towards him on GL. Not accusing anyone of that, just saying.

I am also not one for stats, I have said a thousand times I hate them. But from your own eyes you can see he struggles alot because he plays with someone who shots the sh!t out of the ball, is quite selfish in the final third and when he does pass it isnt to someone else a goal scoring chance.

Is that the entire reason Benzema isnt the perfect player, obviously not, but I dont see how you can dismiss this factor in the overlook of things.

I dont care how good the players around him are, that's not what decides how much "easier" he should have it.
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Post by VanDeezNuts Sat Dec 28, 2013 3:07 pm

But this third option BS is just complete bull. He is third option because he is not making the runs and making himself available to the extent of Ronaldo, Bale etc. Benzema is known to shy away from the box, just look at his heat maps.

I could care less about goals, assists, shots etc. If you have watched Benzema play this season you would have seen he was anonymous in the first part of the season, had a great run of form for about 5 or so matches, and has been anonymous since.

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Post by sportsczy Sat Dec 28, 2013 3:17 pm

He doesn't play in the box because he's not supposed to UNLESS CR7 is wide... since CR7 never stays wide and almost always goes into the box now, there you have it.  Even Zidane said it prior to the season when asked about him:  "Benzema must score for France NT.  It's his role.  For Madrid, it's different.  His role is being part of the game and helping the team score."

Big reason why Marcelo is nowhere to be seen... he can't attack when CR7 is vacating the wing all the time.  He needs to stay back because there's nobody to overlap for.

He had a a great 10 game run because we were playing a 433 after Isco was benched and we went with Khedira-Alonso-Modric. He was playing the 9,5 role and closer to a 10. Once Khdira went down and we went back to a 4222, he has nowhere to go. We started the season in a 4222 too until Alonso returned.

Nothing bull about it.  Simple tactics.
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Post by Mr Nick09 Sat Dec 28, 2013 3:52 pm

he doesnt play in the box because he is not competent at it.

once again, his faults always excused by the behaviors of others. he was so mediocre at being a 9 for france that he spent more than a year without a goal and got benched by Giroud.

the reality is that Benzema is a second forward, with a rather suspect mentality. He is a follower, not a leader, so of course he will bend to the will of CR instead of trying to be his wing man. In an ideal world, he needs people like CR and Bale making the runs for him, so he can stay in his comfort zone, in the hole, in between the lines, away from the CBs and the midfielders. He avoids contact like plague so that's ideal for him. No wonder you dislike Isco so much, giving how great Isco is in between the lines, he creeps up on benzema's territory and benzema doesnt know what else to do anymore (well, an actually smart n9 would be shoulder to shoulder with the CBs in those situations).

He shined most when played with CR and Bale. But when asked to play with CR and Di Maria, or because we went 4231 (same formation we played last season btw, and past 3), he cant score or perform anymore? is this a joke? he wasnt suffering from Ozil being a CF before, heck he even scored 30 goals once; but since isco likes to dribble in between the lines, Benzema suffers, good lord.

the stream of excuses will never end, poor guy, i bet he was born with a 433 sticker stamped on his arse.
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