How can germany win the world cup?

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Post by Valkyrja Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:13 pm

Kroos :facepalm: Ozil will start since he is their best player and best am in the world.

btw, Hummels-Mertesacker is too slow and rigid IMO, they need a faster guy like Howedes or Boateng to parter with. Certainly not Badstuber

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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:19 pm

inter1lachen wrote:Seems to me that Mole is right.  Italy is on an upswing in coaching talent, player talent, depth and overall performance. And, as was demonstrated at the Under 21s, Italy are the only team in Europe that have the talent and depth that might challenge Spain. Germany has reached its peak, in my opinion, in terms of player performance and coaching.
Meh, U21 titles mean very little to me. Argentina won the most youth accolades between 2000-10 but we still did not even break WC semis.

Italy might be on the upswing (only because 2010 was a low and they're merely reversing to their average historical quality imo) but that still doesn't mean that in 9 months they will mount a challenge. I like Prandelli and would like to think that this Italy team is merely transitory, but for the life of me I can't comprehend why he didn't stick with the 3-5-2.
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Post by Tomwin Lannister Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:22 pm

If Prandelli is too stubborn to accept that a back 3 is best for Italy (Anybody who's watched them regularly for the past number of years can't possible argue against that) then there's no chance of winning anything.


Plus with a back 4, there seems to be an influx of scrubs filling the positions like wide midfielders. Because Italy have so, so very few wide players and these mid-table flops end up getting a spot.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:02 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Disagreed mole. They have talent in every line and ridiculous depth too. They're missing a RB and perhaps a more complete 9 but they, and Spain, have far and away the best squad and first elevens going into the WC.

Also Italy under the 3-5-2 at the Euros was fearsome, the new one with half a team made up from mid-table teams, not so much.
Who cares about depth at a WC? 14 to 15 players max will be used of importance.

And Germany's 14 to 15 players are not better than Spain's, Brazil's and Argentina's...

They are not better tactically or as balanced either.... which will matter in the end.

As for Italy yes they have the least amount of talent of the 5 but they have 15 quality players who can easily beat anyone as long as they don't suffer too much from injuries they can easily win it all as well.

The mere idea that Germany should walk it is a joke, they are not even favorites in my eyes.
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Post by flameas Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:05 pm

Tomwin Lannister wrote:If Prandelli is too stubborn to accept that a back 3 is best for Italy (Anybody who's watched them regularly for the past number of years can't possible argue against that) then there's no chance of winning anything.


Plus with a back 4, there seems to be an influx of scrubs filling the positions like wide midfielders. Because Italy have so, so very few wide players and these mid-table flops end up getting a spot.
How can we play 3-4-3 or 3-5-2 if we lack quality wide players? Maggio is vulnerable and thats it. No more somewhat quality wingbacks in Italy.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:08 pm

Not saying they should walk this but Germany has very few weak links. With Spain and Brazil they have the most complete and balanced squads, and that wins you tournaments. Their 14-15 players are easily better than Argentina, they have Lahm, Hummels and Neuer, we have Rojo, Fernandez and Romero. A team of 11 very good players will win 80% of the time against a team of 6 very good players, 1 special one and 4 average ones.
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Post by Tomwin Lannister Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:10 pm

:facepalm: Maggio is better as a wing back than a full back

The wide players Italy lack are wide midfielders. De Sciglio and Pasquale are good enough in the left wing back position.


Even without wing backs, every formation has full backs anyway. So I fail to see how using full backs instead of wing backs helps there.


Every time Italy use a back 3 they perform very well. As opposed to a back 4 with random scrubs thrown in, which normally results in mediocre teams getting results against Italy.
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Post by Ganso Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:14 pm

A bit off topic, but you all also have to take into consideration the atmosphere when it comes to next WC.

1-Germany,Spain and Argentina will be playing every WC match like it was an away game because the crowd will always go with the underdogs like in the Conf Cup.I think the crowd helped italy a lot against spain for example.

2-The Wc will be held at winter, but even then it will be hot as fck in some places which makes European teams very uncomfortable.The Italy NT looked dead in about every game in the confed cup.

3-For Argentina, number 1 counts x2.

4-We will be playing at home and havent lost a official game since 1950, so i really dont see us going out without a fight, and tbh i think we will win it because of home advantage.


Last edited by Ganso on Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Arquitecto Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:16 pm

Ignazio Abate is world class for Azzuri every time he plays. Naturally he is a wingback which will transcend better for him.

Maggio is just beginning to re-adapt to his fullback position to which had him rated in Fiorentina and Sampdoria. All his performances in Benitez' 4 man position have been excellent.

De Sciglio might not be ready so that leaves Domenico Criscito as the main option. Everytime this man plays as LB or wingback, Italia win. He is that good for Italia, the new Grosso for Azzuri.
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Post by che Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:17 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:A team of 11 very good players will win 80% of the time against a team of 6 very good players, 1 special one and 4 average ones.
spain have been winning tournaments with a defence of arbeloa, pique, ramos and alba/capdevila...
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:18 pm

With possession based tactics that protect the backline, back when Ramos and Pique were actually good, and Alba for all his defensive fallacies is much, much better than Rojo. For teams that don't rely on possession tactics their average players in the defense will get exposed much more frequently.
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Post by Forza Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:23 pm

Italy will have a good WC because they had a crap one in 2010. Bring on ze Germans.
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Post by che Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:24 pm

so what you're saying is that you can, in fact, win with a team with 4 average players in it when it's coached properly...?

world cups and euros are one-game knockouts, what you need are players who can make a difference surrounded by not-shit teammates

look at teams that made the finals in the last few tournaments... balotelli with italy, sneijder with holland, zidane with france, all pretty much dragging their teams throughout the knockout... meanwhile germany with all their depth and good-but-not-great starting xi always falter in the semis
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:34 pm

che wrote:so what you're saying is that you can, in fact, win with a team with 4 average players in it when it's coached properly...?

world cups and euros are one-game knockouts, what you need are players who can make a difference surrounded by not-shit teammates

look at teams that made the finals in the last few tournaments... balotelli with italy, sneijder with holland, zidane with france, all pretty much dragging their teams throughout the knockout... meanwhile germany with all their depth and good-but-not-great starting xi always falter in the semis
I'm saying Pique and Ramos were not average in 2010, but yes, obviously tactics has a role to play in this as well. I'm also not saying individual talent has no place, but it has to be accompanied by a strong supporting team, otherwise no matter how talented you are you will not progress.

You point to how recently some teams were pushed to finals by individual performances, but we can also look at how some very talented but unbalanced teams did not progress (Brazil 82, Argentina 06). Italy in 2012 and Holland in 2010 both had better balanced elevens than Argentina and Italy right now.
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Post by che Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:44 pm

well that's two examples in 20 years... point is that there have been plenty of utterly average players hitching a ride on teams that made the world cup/euro finals over the last few years, either because their team was trained to perfection to master a particular style (spain, greece), or because they had individuals on their teams who could produce when most needed (france, italy, netherlands)
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:49 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Not saying they should walk this but Germany has very few weak links. With Spain and Brazil they have the most complete and balanced squads, and that wins you tournaments. Their 14-15 players are easily better than Argentina, they have Lahm, Hummels and Neuer, we have Rojo, Fernandez and Romero. A team of 11 very good players will win 80% of the time against a team of 6 very good players, 1 special one and 4 average ones.
Actually they have quite a few weak links people just refuse to point them out....

Firstly one of their fullback slots is crap... secondly thier CB spots are extremely vulnerable... striker spots are very poor.... the poorest of the 5 IMO, midfield struggles when in possession and creation and lastly they don't have a clue what their best attacking midfield trio is.

They are nowhere near as good as people make out, football isn't played on paper if it were i'd might agree but in reality Germany have major issues and its not as all rosey as playing a few games of Fifa or PES would indicate.
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Post by BarrileteCosmico Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:58 pm

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Actually they have quite a few weak links people just refuse to point them out....

Firstly one of their fullback slots is crap... secondly thier CB spots are extremely vulnerable... striker spots are very poor.... the poorest of the 5 IMO, midfield struggles when in possession and creation and lastly they don't have a clue what their best attacking midfield trio is.

They are nowhere near as good as people make out, football isn't played on paper if it were i'd might agree but in reality Germany have major issues and its not as all rosey as playing a few games of Fifa or PES would indicate.
BarrileteCosmico wrote:Disagreed mole. They have talent in every line and ridiculous depth too. They're missing a RB and perhaps a more complete 9 but they, and Spain, have far and away the best squad and first elevens going into the WC.
Please tell me more about how I'm ignoring their weak links or basing my argument off FIFA (which I don't even own anymore...). Look, I agree with your initial assessment that they are one of 5 teams that are likely to end up with the WC, all I'm saying is that there is a gap between the top 3 (Germany, Spain, and Brazil) and the other 2 (Italy and Argentina) because they have a more balanced squad. I still don't like Low and think they could go down because of him, and I agree that if they insist on playing with a high line Hummels is not the best pick, but they have 9 months to work on these issues and that doesn't change my view too much right now.

Also considering the last WC, can you really blame me for rating Germany? Laughing
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Post by inter1lachen Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:55 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:Actually they have quite a few weak links people just refuse to point them out....

Firstly one of their fullback slots is crap... secondly thier CB spots are extremely vulnerable... striker spots are very poor.... the poorest of the 5 IMO, midfield struggles when in possession and creation and lastly they don't have a clue what their best attacking midfield trio is.

They are nowhere near as good as people make out, football isn't played on paper if it were i'd might agree but in reality Germany have major issues and its not as all rosey as playing a few games of Fifa or PES would indicate.
BarrileteCosmico wrote:Disagreed mole. They have talent in every line and ridiculous depth too. They're missing a RB and perhaps a more complete 9 but they, and Spain, have far and away the best squad and first elevens going into the WC.
Please tell me more about how I'm ignoring their weak links or basing my argument off FIFA (which I don't even own anymore...). Look, I agree with your initial assessment that they are one of 5 teams that are likely to end up with the WC, all I'm saying is that there is a gap between the top 3 (Germany, Spain, and Brazil) and the other 2 (Italy and Argentina) because they have a more balanced squad. I still don't like Low and think they could go down because of him, and I agree that if they insist on playing with a high line Hummels is not the best pick, but they have 9 months to work on these issues and that doesn't change my view too much right now.

Also considering the last WC, can you really blame me for rating Germany? Laughing
Italy is stronger man for man and has more depth than Germany. They also have a far better manager. Italy and Spain are very equal, don't let the 2012 Euro final fool you. Italy had 3 less days of rest than Spain and played with 10 men due to injury.

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Post by aleumdance Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:43 am

Mole...The German CB is not Vulnerable

its Low playing them in a pathetic high line, its better if they just sit at the D, simple
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:26 am

aleumdance wrote:Mole...The German CB is not Vulnerable

its Low playing them in a pathetic high line, its better if they just sit at the D, simple
They are vulnerable because of this reason and why i mentioned it.... until Low fixes it than its a weakness.

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Post by aleumdance Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:43 am

now that people on GL don't think Germany will do well in the WC

the Jinx has been Spiritually Activated...

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Post by LeBéninois Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:24 am

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:
aleumdance wrote:Mole...The German CB is not Vulnerable

its Low playing them in a pathetic high line, its better if they just sit at the D, simple
They are vulnerable because of this reason and why i mentioned it.... until Low fixes it than its a weakness.

I genuinely want to know why Low is going going for a pragmatic defending. I mean , he might think about it but isn't he at least testing it as Germany easily top their group?
I know for instance that a team like Brazil won't play something others than attacking/entertaining football. the fans would almost rather lose that way than win ... Dunga 2010's team was actually very strong but not enjoyable enough and at the end they broke under the pressure of not having the fans trusting them.
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Post by LeBéninois Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:37 am

Great Leader Sprucenuce wrote:
aleumdance wrote:Mole...The German CB is not Vulnerable

its Low playing them in a pathetic high line, its better if they just sit at the D, simple
They are vulnerable because of this reason and why i mentioned it.... until Low fixes it than its a weakness.

I genuinely want to know why Low is going going for a pragmatic defending. I mean , he might think about it but isn't he at least testing it as Germany easily top their group?
I know for instance that a team like Brazil won't play something others than attacking/entertaining football. the fans would almost rather lose that way than win ... Dunga 2010's team was actually very strong but not enjoyable enough and at the end they broke under the pressure of not having the fans trusting them.
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