Video: Lionel Messi... with Argentina!

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Post by alexjanosik Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:12 am

So anyone who thinks Messi is better has not seen Maradona.
I have seen both and there is no doubt in my mind that Messi is better.

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Post by the xcx Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:32 am

@alexjanosik wrote:So anyone who thinks Messi is better has not seen Maradona.
I have seen both and there is no doubt in my mind that Messi is better.
Thats one thing but please, when someones opinion ranks Maradona as a higher class player than Messi, then dont bother to claim otherwise, youll just look retarded.
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Post by alexjanosik Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:40 am

@The xcx wrote:
@alexjanosik wrote:So anyone who thinks Messi is better has not seen Maradona.
I have seen both and there is no doubt in my mind that Messi is better.
Thats one thing but please, when someones opinion ranks Maradona as a higher class player than Messi, then dont bother to claim otherwise, youll just look retarded.

I will do as I please.I can can come up with plenty of arguments as to why Messi is better.

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Post by the xcx Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:49 am

@alexjanosik wrote:
@The xcx wrote:
@alexjanosik wrote:So anyone who thinks Messi is better has not seen Maradona.
I have seen both and there is no doubt in my mind that Messi is better.
Thats one thing but please, when someones opinion ranks Maradona as a higher class player than Messi, then dont bother to claim otherwise, youll just look retarded.

I will do as I please.I can can come up with plenty of arguments as to why Messi is better.
0 rly?, might as well start doing it, my eyes and ears are all yours.
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Post by Vapotrini Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:12 am

Oh Alex, please keep up. I stupidly thought you'd be able to understand what I meant, silly me.

Not even gonna bother again. There's nothing I can say that will change your mind, so why bother?

Messi is the BEST EVER. Rock on!

Thank you, Izzy. Finally someone gets it.

And I'm the BIGGEST MESSI fan in the world, tell me again what do I have to gain by lying? Just accept it Alex, you didn't see it... but he was that much better. He REALLY WAS, it's the TRUTH!

All of you will stop making excuses one day. And that's what you're doing right now btw, something I've done myself... make excuses. That's something champions DON'T do. They instead carry their teams and win world cups, coincedently. Quite frankly the way Argentina are performing now is nothing short of EMBARRASSING! Dress it up any way you'd like, Diego won the WC with half the talent in the current Argentinean squad. Let's all keep blaming their coach though...

What a joke.

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Post by messixaviesta Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:38 am

See I agree with alex on at least one point. Messi in WC 2010 was better than Maradona in WC 1982. Maradona wasn't one of the ten best players in the tournament but Messi was. However there is a little more to it. In Messi's days players are much better protected from violent players than those in Maradona's days were. Considering this we can better understand what happened. Messi was tactically marked out by Schweinsteiger while Maradona was simply beaten black and blue. Neither's team mates did enough to help their cause which I think is actually the most significant point.

So vapo if Messi wins WC 2014, will you then be ready to put him on the same pedestal as Maradona? The way I see it there are mainly two things left for Messi to do - excel in international football and maintain his level for several years. He already ticks all the other boxes.

Lastly about the point related to the greatest of players running their teams in spite of who the coach is. Maradona probably did do it. The example that comes most in my mind is a different one. I am quite sure the WC 2006 France team was run by Zidane rather than Domenech. See before Zidane came back from international retirement France were struggling to even qualify for the world cup. After he came back they not only qualified but reached the final and lost only on penalties. After that they went on a steep downward slope that had no end till finally Domenech was let go. So isn't it baffling that a coach who brought France nothing but misery had such a fantastic WC 2006? That's why I believe that he was not really in charge at that time. Zidane took some wrong decisions as well such as putting Barthez in goal instead of Coupet but ultimately it all worked. However should players like Messi actually try to do things like that? This really is a double edged sword. It's not a good thing to do but if it works then who complains. As it stands Messi will likely not try anything like that and if he by chance does he will probably not succeed. He is not so much a people's person and he doesn't have much support in Argentina. So the only way out is for him to somehow do some inspirational things on the pitch that can galvanize the whole team in spite of all the limitations .

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Post by Vapotrini Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:55 am

@messixaviesta wrote:See I agree with alex on at least one point. Messi in WC 2010 was better than Maradona in WC 1982. Maradona wasn't one of the ten best players in the tournament but Messi was. However there is a little more to it. In Messi's days players are much better protected from violent players than those in Maradona's days were. Hence we can better understand what happened. Messi was tactically marked out by Schweinsteiger while Maradona was simply beaten black and blue. Neither's team mates did enough to help their cause which I think is actually the most significant point.

So vapo if Messi wins WC 2014, will you then be ready to put him on the same pedestal as Maradona? The way I see it there are mainly two things left for Messi to do - excel in international football and maintain his level for several years. He already ticks all the other boxes.

Lastly about the point related to the greatest of players running their teams in spite of who the coach is. Maradona probably did do it. The example that comes most in my mind is a different one. I am quite sure the WC 2006 France team was run by Zidane rather than Domenech. See before Zidane came back from international retirement France were struggling to even qualify for the world cup. After he came back they not only qualified but reached the final and lost only on penalties. After that they went on a steep downward slope that had no end till finally Domenech was let go. So isn't it baffling that a coach who brought France nothing but misery had such a fantastic WC 2006? That's why I believe that he was not really in charge at that time. Zidane took some wrong decisions as well such as putting Barthez in goal instead of Coupet but ultimately it all worked. However should players like Messi actually try to do things like that? This really is a double edged sword. It's not a good thing to do but if it works then who complains. As it stands Messi will likely not try anything like that and if he by chance does he will probably not succeed. He is not so much a people's person and he doesn't have much support in Argentina. So the only way out is for him to somehow do some inspirational things on the pitch in spite of all the limitations that can galvanize the whole team.

You have an EXTREMELY solid grasp of the game.

And yes I will absolutely be ready to pay him his just desserts IF he wins it in 2014 (not like I don't want him to). In my mind though, he won't win it. I'd like him to but he won't, not without someone else to take the spotlight off of him. People keep comparing his age to Maradona's but football unfortunately doesn't work that way. You can't say Maradona won at 26 so Messi has up until then to make it, cause first of all, Maradona was a play maker. He didn't have to rely on the attributes Messi does...

Forgetting his position, he had other things to fall back on. Messi has one thing though, his cunning. When that eventaully (speed more or less) goes, what will he have? Nothing.

Everyone was celebrating Messi's birthday the other day, I wasn't though... I was actually sad. Do you know why, because I know that he's one more year closer to being human. Even though in my mind he's not the best ever, he still undoubtedly one of the best ever! Truly rare. A treat to watch. Anyway, my point is... The days of players shining well into their 30's are so LONG over. Messi has at most 2 to 3 more years at best, but people don't realize that yet. They keep comparing & thinking he's young and they keep judging him on careers gone by... in my mind the glaring truth is, training has advanced so much that it's safe to say that Messi's career is almost certainly halfway over already. Sad yes but almost certainly true... Believe it. We've seen his best already in all likelihood. Yet everyone keeps comparing him to another Argentine at the same age. We can't have it both ways. Messi is a mature footballer, he's not a "genuine" 24 year old. So comparisons are irrelevant. "Certain" people need to realize that.

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Post by billionmillion Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:57 am

This man hates messi because of maradona. crazy maradona fan from childhood, raised mastrubating while watching maradona videos like i do watching messi.

On tv everyday they show wc games, everybody see it. Maradona was shit at 1982, nobody would think that he will win the wc.

1978-86 was Argentina's golden era. Even without Maradona they won WC in 1978. Next WC with Maradona they failed.

Maradona played in WC winner team at the age of 22
Messi played in a crap team at the age of 22

So vapotrini you think Messi's team was better than that champion team? My friend even Valencia is better than this Argentina team. stop being so biased open your eyes once in a year

Look at Germany, they look weaker than Argentina on paper, but they are organized, they are a team, they have a good coach, system. Argentina is like group of idlers under an unserious coach. Bring Pep or Mourinho or any european coach to Argentina team then this team can f.ck every team in the world

dont compare 1982 team to this team there are millions differences
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Post by Albiceleste Sun Jul 10, 2011 1:17 pm

A team can't solely rely on their attack to win a world cup, without a defense and midfield a team is nothing.

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Post by Vapotrini Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:27 pm

@billionmillion wrote:This man hates messi because of maradona. crazy maradona fan from childhood, raised mastrubating while watching maradona videos like i do watching messi.

On tv everyday they show wc games, everybody see it. Maradona was shit at 1982, nobody would think that he will win the wc.

1978-86 was Argentina's golden era. Even without Maradona they won WC in 1978. Next WC with Maradona they failed.

Maradona played in WC winner team at the age of 22
Messi played in a crap team at the age of 22

So vapotrini you think Messi's team was better than that champion team? My friend even Valencia is better than this Argentina team. stop being so biased open your eyes once in a year

Look at Germany, they look weaker than Argentina on paper, but they are organized, they are a team, they have a good coach, system. Argentina is like group of idlers under an unserious coach. Bring Pep or Mourinho or any european coach to Argentina team then this team can f.ck every team in the world

dont compare 1982 team to this team there are millions differences

Trust me I make no secret about being a Maradona fan, it's well known fact. And I'm proud of it. And contrary to what you think, Maradona was not utter "shit" in 1982, he was just immature and paid the price for it. That's it. He didn't stink up the place and get benched like you're trying to portray. He got into a fight with Spanish national side iirc and his WC was effectively over. Big difference. Probably contributed as much as Messi did statistically in both Messi's WC's, btw.

And yes I will acknowledge and agree that before 82 he wasn't the well known figure he is now. But what is with this FLAT OUT MISCONCEPTION that Maradona performed only at the 86 WC and not before or after??? He was unequivocally the best player in the world 2 years before that WC and many, many years after. And I'm not talking about the "disputed" best like we have nowadays with Messi & Ronaldo. I'm talking it wasn't even a conversation. Not even for the kids. There was Maradona and then way below, there was everyone else.

Oh and as for the "million" differences in the Argentine national team between then and now. I don't think so, just one difference.... guess what it was, or who. And he didn't need Pep, or Mou or whichever other dream scenario you want to dream up.

Yeah, Valencia is better than this Argentina team, AND I'M BIASED...

Listen, stop the frakking excuses. My eyes don't lie, there's no excuse to cover it. He's not cutting it at national team level. How can you not see that? Just breathe and accept it, for it's the truth.

You know what's funny. 95% of the Messi videos out there are of him with Barca, yet about 40-50% of Maradona's vidoes are of him with Argentina. Subtle things like that don't register with you, do they? They should. No mind, chalk it up to them being lesser athletes. Let's all just ignore the simple fact that it was a WAY MORE defensive Era when Diego played. I mean, why let a simple thing like FACTS get in the way of this comparison. They were scrubs back then, Messi would eat them alive... right?

Wake up buddy.

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Post by messixaviesta Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:33 pm

@Vapotrini wrote:
You have an EXTREMELY solid grasp of the game.

And yes I will absolutely be ready to pay him his just desserts IF he wins it in 2014 (not like I don't want him to). In my mind though, he won't win it. I'd like him to but he won't, not without someone else to take the spotlight off of him. People keep comparing his age to Maradona's but football unfortunately doesn't work that way. You can't say Maradona won at 26 so Messi has up until then to make it, cause first of all, Maradona was a play maker. He didn't have to rely on the attributes Messi does...

Forgetting his position, he had other things to fall back on. Messi has one thing though, his cunning. When that eventaully (speed more or less) goes, what will he have? Nothing.

Everyone was celebrating Messi's birthday the other day, I wasn't though... I was actually sad. Do you know why, because I know that he's one more year closer to being human. Even though in my mind he's not the best ever, he still undoubtedly one of the best ever! Truly rare. A treat to watch. Anyway, my point is... The days of players shining well into their 30's are so LONG over. Messi has at most 2 to 3 more years at best, but people don't realize that yet. They keep comparing & thinking he's young and they keep judging him on careers gone by... in my mind the glaring truth is, training has advanced so much that it's safe to say that Messi's career is almost certainly halfway over already. Sad yes but almost certainly true... Believe it. We've seen his best already in all likelihood. Yet everyone keeps comparing him to another Argentine at the same age. We can't have it both ways. Messi is a mature footballer, he's not a "genuine" 24 year old. So comparisons are irrelevant. "Certain" people need to realize that.

First of all thanks a lot for that immensely flattering statement.

Secondly your comments were very interesting to read. On one side I agree with you that a significant part of Messi['s career is over and that thinking he is still a kid would do us no good. That argument works for Neymar but not for Messi. Also some of his best attributes are indeed age dependent. He does have more to his game though and I do feel he will remain a great player even after he physically declines. The question is will he still be the best player in the world once he loses his speed and agility. We can't say anything for sure but my gut feeling is no he won't. Nowadays players don't dominate for many years. Ronaldo, the original one, had a couple of outstanding years when he was totally untouchable and then succumbed to a long injury. When he came back it's said he was not even 70% the player he used to be but even with that he once again became the best player in the world. That though lasted for less than two years. So in total we can say Ronaldo dominated football for five seasons at most. Messi has already dominated for three. He may really not have that much time left. The one player who dominated for longer is Zidane but being a midfielder and not relying on speed meant that he was not so affected by decline in physicality.

Now in context of Messi's potential international achievements people say he has two more world cups to go. This is where I tend to agree with you that we should not even consider WC 2018 because given the rate at which Argentina produces talent it's more than likely Messi will no longer be a key player by then. I do think we should give him time till WC 2014 though. Considering his present level he can still remain at the top for three or four seasons at least. So in a nutshell WC 2014 is the be all and end all. It's either that or nothing.

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Post by Albiceleste Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:37 pm

@Vapotrini wrote:I'm not talking about the "disputed" best like we have nowadays with Messi & Ronaldo.
This debate was settled years ago

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Post by Vapotrini Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:56 pm

Lionel Messi wrote:
@Vapotrini wrote:I'm not talking about the "disputed" best like we have nowadays with Messi & Ronaldo.
This debate was settled years ago

In my mind and probably yours yes, but in the world's... I think only this year it was truly sealed.


@messixaviesta wrote:
@Vapotrini wrote:
You have an EXTREMELY solid grasp of the game.

And yes I will absolutely be ready to pay him his just desserts IF he wins it in 2014 (not like I don't want him to). In my mind though, he won't win it. I'd like him to but he won't, not without someone else to take the spotlight off of him. People keep comparing his age to Maradona's but football unfortunately doesn't work that way. You can't say Maradona won at 26 so Messi has up until then to make it, cause first of all, Maradona was a play maker. He didn't have to rely on the attributes Messi does...

Forgetting his position, he had other things to fall back on. Messi has one thing though, his cunning. When that eventaully (speed more or less) goes, what will he have? Nothing.

Everyone was celebrating Messi's birthday the other day, I wasn't though... I was actually sad. Do you know why, because I know that he's one more year closer to being human. Even though in my mind he's not the best ever, he still undoubtedly one of the best ever! Truly rare. A treat to watch. Anyway, my point is... The days of players shining well into their 30's are so LONG over. Messi has at most 2 to 3 more years at best, but people don't realize that yet. They keep comparing & thinking he's young and they keep judging him on careers gone by... in my mind the glaring truth is, training has advanced so much that it's safe to say that Messi's career is almost certainly halfway over already. Sad yes but almost certainly true... Believe it. We've seen his best already in all likelihood. Yet everyone keeps comparing him to another Argentine at the same age. We can't have it both ways. Messi is a mature footballer, he's not a "genuine" 24 year old. So comparisons are irrelevant. "Certain" people need to realize that.

First of all thanks a lot for that immensely flattering statement.

Secondly your comments were very interesting to read. On one side I agree with you that a significant part of Messi['s career is over and that thinking he is still a kid would do us no good. That argument works for Neymar but not for Messi. Also some of his best attributes are indeed age dependent. He does have more to his game though and I do feel he will remain a great player even after he physically declines. The question is will he still be the best player in the world once he loses his speed and agility. We can't say anything for sure but my gut feeling is no he won't. Nowadays players don't dominate for many years. Ronaldo, the original one, had a couple of outstanding years when he was totally untouchable and then succumbed to a long injury. When he came back it's said he was not even 70% the player he used to be but even with that he once again became the best player in the world. That though lasted for less than two years. So in total we can say Ronaldo dominated football for five seasons at most. Messi has already dominated for three. He may really not have that much time left. The one player who dominated for longer is Zidane but being a midfielder and not relying on speed meant that he was not so affected by decline in physicality.

Now in context of Messi's potential international achievements people say he has two more world cups to go. This is where I tend to agree with you that we should not even consider WC 2018 because given the rate at which Argentina produces talent it's more than likely Messi will no longer be a key player by then. I do think we should give him time till WC 2014 though. Considering his present level he can still remain at the top for three or four seasons at least. So in a nutshell WC 2014 is the be all and end all. It's either that or nothings

100% agreed.

And as you mention Zidane and his position it brings up a good point. And it's one in Messi's favour believe it or not. Zidane & Diego were play makers, towards the latter parts of their careers they didn't have or need to rely on speed. Distribution was enough. That was their game. Hence their shelf life was far, far greater than that of an attacker. This is something that Messi needs to work on now if he wants to prolong his career. He's getting ridiculously good at it but he needs to push the envelope even further to really cement his legacy. Ironically, I'll bet anything that it'll be in the twilight of his career when he's the true play maker that he'll be the most successful for his country.

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Post by Khaled Sun Jul 10, 2011 4:34 pm

Tuesday o:45AM GMT

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Post by messixaviesta Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:47 pm

@Vapotrini wrote:

In my mind and probably yours yes, but in the world's... I think only this year it was truly sealed.

100% agreed.

And as you mention Zidane and his position it brings up a good point. And it's one in Messi's favour believe it or not. Zidane & Diego were play makers, towards the latter parts of their careers they didn't have or need to rely on speed. Distribution was enough. That was their game. Hence their shelf life was far, far greater than that of an attacker. This is something that Messi needs to work on now if he wants to prolong his career. He's getting ridiculously good at it but he needs to push the envelope even further to really cement his legacy. Ironically, I'll bet anything that it'll be in the twilight of his career when he's the true play maker that he'll be the most successful for his country.

As far as I remember the Messi vs. C.Ronaldo debate was settled in the eyes of the world after the 4-1 against Arsenal.

Very interesting thoughts about what Messi's future can be like.

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Post by messixaviesta Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:49 pm

I am tempted to ask a totally hypothetical and somewhat dangerous question. There will never be any factual answer to this but I am interested in opinions.

For those of you who have followed football for several years and have reasonable knowledge about all time legends, are there any other players in history that you can put in Diego Maradona's place in the WC 1986 Argentina team so that the same result of eventual world champions is achieved.

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Post by billionmillion Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:20 pm

@Vapotrini wrote:
@billionmillion wrote:This man hates messi because of maradona. crazy maradona fan from childhood, raised mastrubating while watching maradona videos like i do watching messi.

On tv everyday they show wc games, everybody see it. Maradona was shit at 1982, nobody would think that he will win the wc.

1978-86 was Argentina's golden era. Even without Maradona they won WC in 1978. Next WC with Maradona they failed.

Maradona played in WC winner team at the age of 22
Messi played in a crap team at the age of 22

So vapotrini you think Messi's team was better than that champion team? My friend even Valencia is better than this Argentina team. stop being so biased open your eyes once in a year

Look at Germany, they look weaker than Argentina on paper, but they are organized, they are a team, they have a good coach, system. Argentina is like group of idlers under an unserious coach. Bring Pep or Mourinho or any european coach to Argentina team then this team can f.ck every team in the world

dont compare 1982 team to this team there are millions differences

Trust me I make no secret about being a Maradona fan, it's well known fact. And I'm proud of it. And contrary to what you think, Maradona was not utter "shit" in 1982, he was just immature and paid the price for it. That's it. He didn't stink up the place and get benched like you're trying to portray. He got into a fight with Spanish national side iirc and his WC was effectively over. Big difference. Probably contributed as much as Messi did statistically in both Messi's WC's, btw.

And yes I will acknowledge and agree that before 82 he wasn't the well known figure he is now. But what is with this FLAT OUT MISCONCEPTION that Maradona performed only at the 86 WC and not before or after??? He was unequivocally the best player in the world 2 years before that WC and many, many years after. And I'm not talking about the "disputed" best like we have nowadays with Messi & Ronaldo. I'm talking it wasn't even a conversation. Not even for the kids. There was Maradona and then way below, there was everyone else.

Oh and as for the "million" differences in the Argentine national team between then and now. I don't think so, just one difference.... guess what it was, or who. And he didn't need Pep, or Mou or whichever other dream scenario you want to dream up.

Yeah, Valencia is better than this Argentina team, AND I'M BIASED...

Listen, stop the frakking excuses. My eyes don't lie, there's no excuse to cover it. He's not cutting it at national team level. How can you not see that? Just breathe and accept it, for it's the truth.

You know what's funny. 95% of the Messi videos out there are of him with Barca, yet about 40-50% of Maradona's vidoes are of him with Argentina. Subtle things like that don't register with you, do they? They should. No mind, chalk it up to them being lesser athletes. Let's all just ignore the simple fact that it was a WAY MORE defensive Era when Diego played. I mean, why let a simple thing like FACTS get in the way of this comparison. They were scrubs back then, Messi would eat them alive... right?

Wake up buddy.

If you dont see the difference between champion team and a flop team then no argument will change your mind. Do you at least agree that 82 and 86 team's defence was much better than this team? do you agree that that team played 10 years together? and do you agree that their manager and system was much better than this team?

You just show me one thing that this team is better at. If you can not show that then pls stop posting in this thread
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Post by alexjanosik Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:50 pm

@Vapotrini wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
@Vapotrini wrote:I'm not talking about the "disputed" best like we have nowadays with Messi & Ronaldo.
This debate was settled years ago

In my mind and probably yours yes, but in the world's... I think only this year it was truly sealed.


@messixaviesta wrote:
@Vapotrini wrote:
You have an EXTREMELY solid grasp of the game.

And yes I will absolutely be ready to pay him his just desserts IF he wins it in 2014 (not like I don't want him to). In my mind though, he won't win it. I'd like him to but he won't, not without someone else to take the spotlight off of him. People keep comparing his age to Maradona's but football unfortunately doesn't work that way. You can't say Maradona won at 26 so Messi has up until then to make it, cause first of all, Maradona was a play maker. He didn't have to rely on the attributes Messi does...

Forgetting his position, he had other things to fall back on. Messi has one thing though, his cunning. When that eventaully (speed more or less) goes, what will he have? Nothing.

Everyone was celebrating Messi's birthday the other day, I wasn't though... I was actually sad. Do you know why, because I know that he's one more year closer to being human. Even though in my mind he's not the best ever, he still undoubtedly one of the best ever! Truly rare. A treat to watch. Anyway, my point is... The days of players shining well into their 30's are so LONG over. Messi has at most 2 to 3 more years at best, but people don't realize that yet. They keep comparing & thinking he's young and they keep judging him on careers gone by... in my mind the glaring truth is, training has advanced so much that it's safe to say that Messi's career is almost certainly halfway over already. Sad yes but almost certainly true... Believe it. We've seen his best already in all likelihood. Yet everyone keeps comparing him to another Argentine at the same age. We can't have it both ways. Messi is a mature footballer, he's not a "genuine" 24 year old. So comparisons are irrelevant. "Certain" people need to realize that.

First of all thanks a lot for that immensely flattering statement.

Secondly your comments were very interesting to read. On one side I agree with you that a significant part of Messi['s career is over and that thinking he is still a kid would do us no good. That argument works for Neymar but not for Messi. Also some of his best attributes are indeed age dependent. He does have more to his game though and I do feel he will remain a great player even after he physically declines. The question is will he still be the best player in the world once he loses his speed and agility. We can't say anything for sure but my gut feeling is no he won't. Nowadays players don't dominate for many years. Ronaldo, the original one, had a couple of outstanding years when he was totally untouchable and then succumbed to a long injury. When he came back it's said he was not even 70% the player he used to be but even with that he once again became the best player in the world. That though lasted for less than two years. So in total we can say Ronaldo dominated football for five seasons at most. Messi has already dominated for three. He may really not have that much time left. The one player who dominated for longer is Zidane but being a midfielder and not relying on speed meant that he was not so affected by decline in physicality.

Now in context of Messi's potential international achievements people say he has two more world cups to go. This is where I tend to agree with you that we should not even consider WC 2018 because given the rate at which Argentina produces talent it's more than likely Messi will no longer be a key player by then. I do think we should give him time till WC 2014 though. Considering his present level he can still remain at the top for three or four seasons at least. So in a nutshell WC 2014 is the be all and end all. It's either that or nothings

100% agreed.

And as you mention Zidane and his position it brings up a good point. And it's one in Messi's favour believe it or not. Zidane & Diego were play makers, towards the latter parts of their careers they didn't have or need to rely on speed. Distribution was enough. That was their game. Hence their shelf life was far, far greater than that of an attacker. This is something that Messi needs to work on now if he wants to prolong his career. He's getting ridiculously good at it but he needs to push the envelope even further to really cement his legacy. Ironically, I'll bet anything that it'll be in the twilight of his career when he's the true play maker that he'll be the most successful for his country.

You say in one post that once Messi loses his pace he will have nothing and then you say that towards the end of his career you can see him playing his best for Argentina.Strange.
But lets forget that.Forget the Maradona comparison.I am not going to convince you and you most certainly are not going to convince me.

But whats the least that you can say about Messi.That he is the undisputed best in the world and one of the all time greats.
That he isnt complacent like a Dinho.That he works extremely hard and tries his best for the country.
I am sure you would agree with the above.
Now I saw you post in another thread that you think Messi is mentally weak.Frankly I am surprised.
The kind of childhood he had and the way he worked his way to the very top,he is anything but mentally weak.The way he keeps getting up affter getting repeatedly hacked down doesnt signal mentally weak to me.It signals what I like to call a champion mentality and Henry alluded to as much when he said that Messi hates losing and is a terrific competitor.
Also he is an ultimate big game player who almost never fails to step up to the occasion.

So what then seems to be the problem?
Some of you may remember that I had said a while back(even before the WC)that it would be foolish for Argentina to try to emulate Barca simply because they dont have the players for it.They dont have the greatest midfielder of all time pulling the strings.Nor do they have Iniesta or Alves.
Instead they have fast,skilful,pacey forwards and 2 good DM's.
I had said then that when a team doesnt have a midfield the logical solution was to bypass the midfield.
And after almost 2 years of struggle I have been vindicated.
The most overlooked part about Messi is that he is the perfect player to base a counter attacking game on.
Just because he is brilliant in a possession setup people dont look at the opposite end of the spectrum.
He would be perfect in a counterattacking setup.He has pace,unmatched dribbling ability,a brilliant final pass and lethal in front of goal.

Argentina dont have a midfield so the logical option would have been to bypass the midfield and adopt a counterattacking setup with Messi at the center.
In short they should have played like Germany at WC 10.
A backline of Zanetti,Samuel,Garay,any competent LB(besides Heinze).
A pivot of Mascherano and Banega\Cambiasso.
Mascherano to play the Khedira role and Banega\Cambiasso to play the Schweini role.Preferably Banega as Schweinsteiger.
Then a 3 in front of Aguero,Messi and Di Maria.
Di Maria to play the Podolski role(or on the other flank),Aguero as Mueller and Messi as Oezil.
Finally Higuain up top to play the Klose role.

No possession game.Instead play exactly like Germany did.Keep discipline at the back with the wingers helping out.And then when you have the ball counter attack at lightning pace through Messi,Di Maria and Aguero.Ofcourse its important to get the ball quickly across to the front four.

Alas Maradona was in charge and not me.
Had I been in charge Argentina would be world champions(guaranteed),Messi would have won the Golden
ball(guaranteed) and the Maradona comparisons would have been done and dusted. Very Happy

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Post by messixaviesta Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:33 pm

alex, I have to say this was a very interesting post - a great read and somewhat eye-opening as well.

I agree completely that any accusation that Messi is not trying enough is very unfair.

Also I agree that he has to be strong mentally. A child who suffered from growth deficiencies today sits at the top of world football. It's a uniquely inspirational story.

The point about by-passing the midfield is extremely interesting. Some time back when people said Argentina had a lot of talent I repeatedly said only in forward positions.

You may not have realized this but you have done something important here. That is given us Argentine fans confidence for tonight. This is essentially the setup that will be played by Batista now. Some of us felt that Messi should have been moved to the right and Pastore placed in the center. Not that I doubt Messi's ability to play as a play maker but keeping him away from goal reduces his goal scoring chances. Keeping him on the right may have given him more space for dribbling through. However your saying this gives me more confidence that this just might be the way. The lineup too is almost exactly same barring the defenders. Just one more change - Gago has been put in place of Banega because the latter has been playing badly. Hope that won't cause any major problems.

With your setup could Argentina have done better at WC 2010? I guess they could have. My only doubt is that against the midfield of Xaviesta they may have come short just like Schweinsteiger and company did. In an open game it's virtually impossible to beat a team having Xavi playing at his best and with Iniesta by his side it becomes even more difficult. The only way to stop Spain was to be extremely physical and defensive and in fact use nasty measures. Germany were the team Spain overcame with greatest ease in the knock outs not because they were any less powerful than the other opponents but because they wanted to play a gentleman's game. So if Argentina had tried it, would they have done better? All I can say for sure is it would have been a fascinating game.

Anyway as of now, for Argentina's and Messi's sake let's hope for the best fingers crossed.




Last edited by messixaviesta on Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:48 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Post by kiranr Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:39 pm

@alexjanosik wrote:
@Vapotrini wrote:
Lionel Messi wrote:
@Vapotrini wrote:I'm not talking about the "disputed" best like we have nowadays with Messi & Ronaldo.
This debate was settled years ago

In my mind and probably yours yes, but in the world's... I think only this year it was truly sealed.


@messixaviesta wrote:
@Vapotrini wrote:
You have an EXTREMELY solid grasp of the game.

And yes I will absolutely be ready to pay him his just desserts IF he wins it in 2014 (not like I don't want him to). In my mind though, he won't win it. I'd like him to but he won't, not without someone else to take the spotlight off of him. People keep comparing his age to Maradona's but football unfortunately doesn't work that way. You can't say Maradona won at 26 so Messi has up until then to make it, cause first of all, Maradona was a play maker. He didn't have to rely on the attributes Messi does...

Forgetting his position, he had other things to fall back on. Messi has one thing though, his cunning. When that eventaully (speed more or less) goes, what will he have? Nothing.

Everyone was celebrating Messi's birthday the other day, I wasn't though... I was actually sad. Do you know why, because I know that he's one more year closer to being human. Even though in my mind he's not the best ever, he still undoubtedly one of the best ever! Truly rare. A treat to watch. Anyway, my point is... The days of players shining well into their 30's are so LONG over. Messi has at most 2 to 3 more years at best, but people don't realize that yet. They keep comparing & thinking he's young and they keep judging him on careers gone by... in my mind the glaring truth is, training has advanced so much that it's safe to say that Messi's career is almost certainly halfway over already. Sad yes but almost certainly true... Believe it. We've seen his best already in all likelihood. Yet everyone keeps comparing him to another Argentine at the same age. We can't have it both ways. Messi is a mature footballer, he's not a "genuine" 24 year old. So comparisons are irrelevant. "Certain" people need to realize that.

First of all thanks a lot for that immensely flattering statement.

Secondly your comments were very interesting to read. On one side I agree with you that a significant part of Messi['s career is over and that thinking he is still a kid would do us no good. That argument works for Neymar but not for Messi. Also some of his best attributes are indeed age dependent. He does have more to his game though and I do feel he will remain a great player even after he physically declines. The question is will he still be the best player in the world once he loses his speed and agility. We can't say anything for sure but my gut feeling is no he won't. Nowadays players don't dominate for many years. Ronaldo, the original one, had a couple of outstanding years when he was totally untouchable and then succumbed to a long injury. When he came back it's said he was not even 70% the player he used to be but even with that he once again became the best player in the world. That though lasted for less than two years. So in total we can say Ronaldo dominated football for five seasons at most. Messi has already dominated for three. He may really not have that much time left. The one player who dominated for longer is Zidane but being a midfielder and not relying on speed meant that he was not so affected by decline in physicality.

Now in context of Messi's potential international achievements people say he has two more world cups to go. This is where I tend to agree with you that we should not even consider WC 2018 because given the rate at which Argentina produces talent it's more than likely Messi will no longer be a key player by then. I do think we should give him time till WC 2014 though. Considering his present level he can still remain at the top for three or four seasons at least. So in a nutshell WC 2014 is the be all and end all. It's either that or nothings

100% agreed.

And as you mention Zidane and his position it brings up a good point. And it's one in Messi's favour believe it or not. Zidane & Diego were play makers, towards the latter parts of their careers they didn't have or need to rely on speed. Distribution was enough. That was their game. Hence their shelf life was far, far greater than that of an attacker. This is something that Messi needs to work on now if he wants to prolong his career. He's getting ridiculously good at it but he needs to push the envelope even further to really cement his legacy. Ironically, I'll bet anything that it'll be in the twilight of his career when he's the true play maker that he'll be the most successful for his country.

You say in one post that once Messi loses his pace he will have nothing and then you say that towards the end of his career you can see him playing his best for Argentina.Strange.
But lets forget that.Forget the Maradona comparison.I am not going to convince you and you most certainly are not going to convince me.

But whats the least that you can say about Messi.That he is the undisputed best in the world and one of the all time greats.
That he isnt complacent like a Dinho.That he works extremely hard and tries his best for the country.
I am sure you would agree with the above.
Now I saw you post in another thread that you think Messi is mentally weak.Frankly I am surprised.
The kind of childhood he had and the way he worked his way to the very top,he is anything but mentally weak.The way he keeps getting up affter getting repeatedly hacked down doesnt signal mentally weak to me.It signals what I like to call a champion mentality and Henry alluded to as much when he said that Messi hates losing and is a terrific competitor.
Also he is an ultimate big game player who almost never fails to step up to the occasion.

So what then seems to be the problem?
Some of you may remember that I had said a while back(even before the WC)that it would be foolish for Argentina to try to emulate Barca simply because they dont have the players for it.They dont have the greatest midfielder of all time pulling the strings.Nor do they have Iniesta or Alves.
Instead they have fast,skilful,pacey forwards and 2 good DM's.
I had said then that when a team doesnt have a midfield the logical solution was to bypass the midfield.
And after almost 2 years of struggle I have been vindicated.
The most overlooked part about Messi is that he is the perfect player to base a counter attacking game on.
Just because he is brilliant in a possession setup people dont look at the opposite end of the spectrum.
He would be perfect in a counterattacking setup.He has pace,unmatched dribbling ability,a brilliant final pass and lethal in front of goal.

Argentina dont have a midfield so the logical option would have been to bypass the midfield and adopt a counterattacking setup with Messi at the center.
In short they should have played like Germany at WC 10.
A backline of Zanetti,Samuel,Garay,any competent LB(besides Heinze).
A pivot of Mascherano and Banega\Cambiasso.
Mascherano to play the Khedira role and Banega\Cambiasso to play the Schweini role.Preferably Banega as Schweinsteiger.
Then a 3 in front of Aguero,Messi and Di Maria.
Di Maria to play the Podolski role(or on the other flank),Aguero as Mueller and Messi as Oezil.
Finally Higuain up top to play the Klose role.

No possession game.Instead play exactly like Germany did.Keep discipline at the back with the wingers helping out.And then when you have the ball counter attack at lightning pace through Messi,Di Maria and Aguero.Ofcourse its important to get the ball quickly across to the front four.

Alas Maradona was in charge and not me.
Had I been in charge Argentina would be world champions(guaranteed),Messi would have won the Golden
ball(guaranteed) and the Maradona comparisons would have been done and dusted. Very Happy

Alex, the other day me and JD were discussing how Argentina should be more conservative, but you have put the entire idea in a very lucid manner.

And yes, Argentina would have been champions and Messi would have won the golden ball and maybe the golden boot too! :coffee:
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Post by _LMG_10_ Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:03 pm

Great post there by Alex regarding using Messi in a counter attacking team. I too believe that a lot of people underestimate just how good he would be in a counter attacking team.

He has the perfect skill set to be the leader of counter attacks. The slow patient buildup of Argentina is simply not like Barca's, and they can't open up gaps like barca can. As a matter of fact, they can't keep possession like Barca can and that's the key part.

Sadly, I don't think they will change their style until it fails.


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Post by messixaviesta Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:24 pm

Actually after reading alex's post it came to my mind that arguably most of the five best teams at WC 2010 were essentially counter-attacking in a 4-2-3-1 system. Let's quickly revisit each of them.

1. Germany - The neatest of all of them. Off the ball movement was absolutely fabulous. Understanding between team mates was top class. Tactically very well setup. Also believed in playing a clean game.

2. Brazil - They didn't quite have the speed and off the ball movement that Germany had but they made up for it with natural Brazilian flair. One thing that went wrong was the injury to Elano. They didn't have a proper replacement for him. Dunga tried Ramires but it didn't work quite to the same effect. Finally he played Dani Alves there and it failed.

3. Netherlands - They were the nastiest of all with two DMs who were more than willing to break your legs and a lot else repeatedly. However the rest of the setup was well conceptualized. The pace and skill of the at times unplayable Arjen Robben, the pin point passing and goal scoring of Wesley Sneijder in the center, the work rate and team play of the understated Dirk Kuyt and some great off the ball movement and link up play from van Persie as the center forward.

4. Argentina - They were totally wrongly setup as we have discussed several times before. However as alex explained they too should have been modeled similar to the three teams mentioned above.

5. Spain - The only possession based team. In any case when you have Xaviesta that's what you should be.

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Post by billionmillion Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:12 pm

So Vapotrini your lovely Maradona just proved my point. This is a stat from him:
"I spoke to him [Messi] during the week and I told him to remain calm. Before the 1986 World Cup I was a disaster and I was criticised by 80 per cent of the journalists [in Argentina]. Later, there wasn’t one who didn’t ask me for a story, so I can understand what’s going on."
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Post by Khaled Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:52 am

Messi the "Playmaker"

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Post by billionmillion Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:39 pm

Now everyone who said that messi has not playmaking skills can shut up. Messi=Xavi+Iniesta for Argentina (Xavi's passes+Iniesta's dribbling). Also we can plus Villa's scoring abilities lol
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Post by bazinga Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:20 pm

@billionmillion wrote:So Vapotrini your lovely Maradona just proved my point. This is a stat from him:
"I spoke to him [Messi] during the week and I told him to remain calm. Before the 1986 World Cup I was a disaster and I was criticised by 80 per cent of the journalists [in Argentina]. Later, there wasn’t one who didn’t ask me for a story, so I can understand what’s going on."

There's no point talking sense to vapotrini when it comes to Maradona.

I read through all the posts here and frankly, such man love is just abnormal.
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