Summer Transfer Window 2013 Pt.II

vegfootball wrote:

ExtremistEnigma wrote:AVB is recreating his 4-3-3 which he used at Porto as evident by his signings. Sandro and Paulinho, would not want to be benched with the WC coming up. Dembele pretty much ticks the midfield for Spuds. So Eriksen signing is just paper talk unless AVB wants him to play out wide which is outrageous considering they have far better options available. I personally think they're pretty much done for in this window and will sign a CB and/or LB to finish it off.

------------Sandro---------Paulinho----------
Chadli--------------Dembélé-----------------Holtby---
-------------------Soldado----

2nd team

------------Jake---------Parker--------
Lennon------------Gylfi------------------Andros-------
-----------------Adebayor------

I like the 4/3/3 as an option, but I don't see it as our ideal formation with the talent we have at our disposal.

------------Paulinho---------Dembele----------
Lennon--------------Eriksen--------------Chadli
-------------------Soldado--------------------

----Paulinho--------Dembele-------Sandro----
Lennon-------------Soldado--------------Chadli

Everyone slots Sandro in there, but I don't see how he isn't the odd man out on the right. Paulinho likes to attack in deep from the right side of the pitch, Dembele offers all of the creativity center left from outside the box. Dembele will not be playing CAM for us, it'll be either Holtby or more likely Eriksen in that role. Everyone overlooks how good Dempsey was in that position for us last year, but he was doing what was needed of him.

If you honestly tell me you want the 4/3/3 over the 4/2/3/1 you just want to make sure we don't finish in the top 4  

Honestly, though I like him, I would sell or loan Sigi since he is good but has literally no gas tank. While he is a great talent, we can't lose a tactical sub every game we play him because he can only go 70 minutes. Not when we're knocking on the door for champions league places. He'd be a great starter for another team, but he's not going to start for Spurs and he's to good to be sub. I'd be ecstatic if he stayed, but I really hope one of you lot goes in for him and gives him the playing time he deserves.

Telegraph reporting that we're planning a 30m bid for Willian. Apparently he's a Liverpool fan, too, so who knows.

Also, Uruguayan journalist reporting on twitter that Suarez has told him he'll be staying and that he'll be signing a new contract in the coming days. The stated reason is the overwhelming support he's received from the fans in the past few weeks...

Anyway, apparently the journalist is reliable (his name is Martin Charquero - I personally know nothing about him). Link to the twatter in question: https://twitter.com/MartinCharquero/status/367425456103886850

The Guardian are carrying the same story in regards to Willian, and The Daily Fail and Mirror are also reporting our interest. Finally, Tony Barrett has stated that Rodgers and Liverpool are interested in him as well. All that said, there's a big difference between being interested and putting in an official bid, and an even larger difference between bidding for a player and signing him.


And so much for the media embargo from Suarez.  
Even if he does sign an extension/new deal let's be honest... it's all about the release clause (and maybe a pay increase), not "fan support."

Oh of course, I thought the "fan support" statement was hilarious, especially considering the vitriol I saw everywhere I looked online following the Guardian interview... Supportive is not the word I would use there.

I'd assume there's a real clause in the contract now in regards to letting him go without CL (or maybe if we're not in CL places in January?), and I'd assume the club negotiated so that the number is higher for English teams considering the recent stance. Seems to me like that would be a compromise both sides could agree on, although I'm just speculating. Either way, if the tweet is accurate, this officially ends the saga with a nice little period on the end - Suarez will be a Liverpool player at least for this year.

I would put these contract "talks" after January.  If we lose him in January, we won't finish top four. And as long as the clause is a 55m+ buy out clause and excludes domestic teams, who cares honestly. Knowing Liverpool in regards to transfers though, it'll be something stupid around the 50m area and he'll end up at Arsenal next summer...

At the end of the day, the main thing is he's in the team and will help push for the top 4 for this season.

stevieg8 wrote:Telegraph reporting that we're planning a 30m bid for Willian.  Apparently he's a Liverpool fan, too, so who knows.

That's just stupid money for a somewhat above average player.

Willian has done absolutely NOTHING to warrant that fee next to his name. He's worth around half of that.

And Luis Suarez is a Liverpool fan, too. (He supported "Liverpool FC" in Uruguay because of the English Liverpool. There was an interview he did with Ajax before we even put a bid in for him, so I doubt he would of made that up.)

ExtremistEnigma wrote:
Eriksen signing doesn't make sense unless he is content with being a backup or a rotation option which he quite frankly won't be.

Eriksen has came out and said he asked Vertonghen about Spurs and he'd be interested in joining. He did the same thing to Liverpool, mind.

Spurs are yet to make a bid.

Didn't Willian go for 30m just 6 months ago?

stevieg8 wrote:Didn't Willian go for 30m just 6 months ago?

He did. Would be pretty stupid to pay the exact 30m for him when Anzhi are having a fire sale. I would love him for 25 or under (same price we were going for Costa and Mkh with).

I would rather playing Sterling on the left all season than spend 30m for Willian.

Willian is just all flair with no end product. lol

Let's not forget he's in his mid 20s; he's not young.

McAgger wrote:

stevieg8 wrote:Didn't Willian go for 30m just 6 months ago?

He did. Would be pretty stupid to pay the exact 30m for him when Anzhi are having a fire sale. I would love him for 25 or under (same price we were going for Costa and Mkh with).

The impression I got is that were trying to price Spurs out of this; they're probably in for him due to the cut rate, so if we bid an extra 5m over the odds, we give ourselves a better shot at him. Again, just speculation, but this makes sense to me - I personally feel he'd be a luxury signing for Spurs whether or not Bale goes, so I don't see why they'd match that bid.

The only reason Spurs would sign him is for a "marquee" signing.

Every fan loves a player with flair, especially when they're Brazilian / South American. Signing him would make the team more "team orientated" as well, no more relying on one player to Bale them out (do you see what I did there?)

Willian is 25/26 now. He's hardly had a successful stint at Anzhi, he was quite average when I saw him play. 30m is stupid money for a player of his quality.

What are the chances of Suarez signing a new contract in the coming days with £50m+ buy-out clause that gets met still in this window? lol


As for Willian, I, too, kind of hope we don't spend £30m on him... On the other hand someone might offer that or Anzhi still might not sell for less, so the other option is not being able to sign him at all. I've got no idea personally how good he is, btw.

RedOranje wrote:What?


No, seriously, what?



Did Rodgers' "love of Allen" stop him from signing another CM last summer in Sahin?  Did it stop him from signing another midfielder/attacker this summer in Alberto?  Has it stopped him from signing Aspas?  From pursuing Mkhitaryan? Costa?  

For the record, Allen HAS scored for Liverpool and has had a number of good and even great performances at the beginning of last season... they were simply overshadowed by the team's struggles as a whole.  He's also young, versatile, and is fit to play 90 minutes... all things that cannot be said for Adam during his time at LFC.  He offers diversity in our midfield options and has time on his side for proving his ability, much like Henderson.

And this silly "Rodgers is obsessed with Allen" stuff really is getting rather old.  Henderson actually made more appearances in all competitions than Allen last season, and that was with Allen acting as Lucas's cover while Lucas was injured.  They started the same number of games overall as well, so the "substitute" argument does not work.

like i said i don't get Rodgers,

2012-2013 season

he did not know what Sahin Playing position position was ,he drop Henderson for Allen, he played Jonjo Shelvey out position so he could keep Allen in the team, he sold Adam so Allen had know one to fight for place,

but funny how had Rodgers try to keep Allen in the team are best Midfield was Lucas,Henderson,Gerrard who went on to lose less game & score more goals

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2013-2014 pre season

it look like Rodgers had give up on Allen as been like with central attacking midfielder Mkhitaryan that did not work, so Rodgers think was to put Coutinho central attacking midfielder,

so you would think we see all pre season, Coutinho central & Sterling,Ibe playing out wide, nope Allen still central & Coutinho out wide,

when Mkhitaryan that did not work it stop with us look at central attacking midfielder & few links with us look at a left side players, does it take over mouth to buy a central or wide player

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alberto was to take Shelvey place as it other players Rodgers did not like

Aspas is a Striker not a midfielder

Motogp69 wrote:

vegfootball wrote:

ExtremistEnigma wrote:AVB is recreating his 4-3-3 which he used at Porto as evident by his signings. Sandro and Paulinho, would not want to be benched with the WC coming up. Dembele pretty much ticks the midfield for Spuds. So Eriksen signing is just paper talk unless AVB wants him to play out wide which is outrageous considering they have far better options available. I personally think they're pretty much done for in this window and will sign a CB and/or LB to finish it off.

------------Sandro---------Paulinho----------
Chadli--------------Dembélé-----------------Holtby---
-------------------Soldado----

2nd team

------------Jake---------Parker--------
Lennon------------Gylfi------------------Andros-------
-----------------Adebayor------

I like the 4/3/3 as an option, but I don't see it as our ideal formation with the talent we have at our disposal.

------------Paulinho---------Dembele----------
Lennon--------------Eriksen--------------Chadli
-------------------Soldado--------------------

----Paulinho--------Dembele-------Sandro----
Lennon-------------Soldado--------------Chadli

Everyone slots Sandro in there, but I don't see how he isn't the odd man out on the right. Paulinho likes to attack in deep from the right side of the pitch, Dembele offers all of the creativity center left from outside the box. Dembele will not be playing CAM for us, it'll be either Holtby or more likely Eriksen in that role. Everyone overlooks how good Dempsey was in that position for us last year, but he was doing what was needed of him.

If you honestly tell me you want the 4/3/3 over the 4/2/3/1 you just want to make sure we don't finish in the top 4  

Honestly, though I like him, I would sell or loan Sigi since he is good but has literally no gas tank. While he is a great talent, we can't lose a tactical sub every game we play him because he can only go 70 minutes. Not when we're knocking on the door for champions league places. He'd be a great starter for another team, but he's not going to start for Spurs and he's to good to be sub. I'd be ecstatic if he stayed, but I really hope one of you lot goes in for him and gives him the playing time he deserves.

thank that great read,

4-3-3 vs 4-2-3-1

to me 4-2-3-1 is to defensive, you only get one centre midfielder run in the box & more set for counter attacking football,

Chelsea only team in England to get 4-3-3 right

-------------------------Čech-----------
Ferreira---------Carvalho-------Terry---------Del Horno---
------------------------Makélélé--------
-----------------Essien--------Lampard---------
Robben-----------------Drogba-----------------Duff----

Art Morte wrote:What are the chances of Suarez signing a new contract in the coming days with £50m+ buy-out clause that gets met still in this window? lol


As for Willian, I, too, kind of hope we don't spend £30m on him... On the other hand someone might offer that or Anzhi still might not sell for less, so the other option is not being able to sign him at all. I've got no idea personally how good he is, btw.

So finally, suarez backs down, only apology remaining then!!! I will celebrate his nail biting goals out of nowhere...
About Willian, I have watched him just once or twice, he seems to be very similar to coutinho in terms of style. I would have preferred someone like costa. But I think Willian will help to take off some burden over Cou's shoulders

burn question were does Suárez fit in the team ?

vegfootball wrote:burn question were does Suárez fit in the team ?

You seriously have to wonder about that after the season he just had?

Art Morte wrote:

vegfootball wrote:burn question were does Suárez fit in the team ?

You seriously have to wonder about that after the season he just had?

yes, he not going to play the lone Forward as Sturridge is the main, we will lose so much from Suárez out wide, playing in Hole he level big caps behind him,

best role for him is the False 9, that mean drop Sturridge, imo think that bad.

Play him centrally and that's it. United dropped Rooney for RVP or put him in a different role, we should do the same with Suarez and Sturridge, imo.

Although in reality it's not as rigid as that and I don't think it will become a problem fielding both Suarez and Sturridge in the center most of the time.

I don't think you watched the same games I did... let's go through this point by point.

vegfootball wrote:he did not know what Sahin  Playing position position was

As I had to argue extensively in the general section, Sahin's best position for us was CAM.  I understand it's not what Sahin wanted to play, but at the start of the season, he was the DLP and Gerrard was at CAM, and Sahin's play was poor there.  We moved him to CAM and dropped Gerrard deeper, and he went on a run of scoring goals and getting assists.  However, he apparently acted out in training because STEVEN FREAKING GERRARD, THE LFC CAPTAIN was getting picked ahead of him in his chosen position.  Gerrard was always going to be first choice in his best position, and Sahin unfortunately took the brunt of that; but the fact that he failed as the DLP in a 3 man midfield when he was played there justifies BR's decision even further.

he drop Henderson for Allen

The majority of Allen's starts last season came during Lucas' injury, and therefore did not take place in a position Henderson could've filled.  Hendo is a B2B midfielder, but his strength lies further upfield, and he really can't put in a shift as a DM; Allen can when absolutely necessary.  Allen's starts were not taking away gametime from Henderson, though.  Why Hendo didn't get starts at the same time at CAM (since Gerrard occupied the DLP spot) is a different question, but is tied into the Sahin conversation above.

he played Jonjo Shelvey out position so he could keep Allen in the team

At the beginning of last year, Jonjo Shelvey was 20 years old, with fewer than 10 PL starts and 20 PL appearances to his name.  Joe Allen had come off several seasons of playing week in, week out for Swansea.  Just off the basis of fitness and stamina, Shelvey wasn't going to get the nod in the starting lineup every week over Allen - and that's IF (a big if) he was already more skilled than Allen.  Potential does not necessarily show up at 20, although you can see glimpses of it; sadly, last year, we didn't even see that from Shelvey.  Played out of position or not, young players need to grasp their opportunities with both hands when granted them, and after a couple of goals scored in Europa games early on, Shelvey was unimpressive on the pitch - losing possession, taking ambitious long shots that never came close, and scuffing easy chances in front of goal.  This is not what you want to see from a young player getting his run out in the first team.

Now, to respond to the idea of him being played out of position: Shelvey played one game, in the EL qualification rounds, as a false 9.  It was shortly after Borini's injury, and Suarez needed a midweek rest; anyone being played in that spot would've been out of position, and Shelvey got the pick.  He was also subbed in for our wingers a few times over the course of the season, less as a like for like substitution, and more to add another attacker; he was never meant to hug the byline, just add another goal threat.  However, more than 85% of his appearances last year came in the middle of the pitch, either as a CAM or a CM - both positions which Shelvey is projected for.  And he did not impress in any of those.  I'm a huge Jonjo fan and would've preferred we kept him (although I didn't mind the fee received, because there's a solid chance he won't pan out - like with any prospect), but he was not a quality player last year, and would not have helped us win games.  Dropping Allen for him would've been the wrong choice tactically, as shown by the times it happened.

he sold Adam so Allen had know one to fight for place

So you list several players that you feel should've played ahead of Allen, and then claim he was fighting for one place due to the sale of Charlie Adam?  The logic doesn't quite work.

but funny how had Rodgers try to keep  Allen in the team are best Midfield was Lucas,Henderson,Gerrard who went on to lose less game & score more goals

Are you forgetting Lucas was out the first half of the season?  When Allen got the majority of his playing time, Lucas was in the trainer's room.  Of course our midfield looked better with a real DM in it, that's just simple logic.  Considering that Lucas/Allen/Gerrard simply wasn't an option for half the season, I'd say comparing those stats is useless.  Now, Rodgers did drop Allen for Henderson when Lucas came back (or soon afterwards) due to a drop in Allen's form - which makes perfect sense to me.  He rode Allen's hot hand at the beginning of the season, but when the player started to fall off (reportedly due to injury, mind you), he switched his plan and moved a new player into the starting spot.  This shows flexibility to me, and seems to contradict your narrative of "BR loves Allen."  But so far all of your questions about our manager's decisions  have been based on faulty information, and when you look at the truth (in terms of stats and lineups), they make sense for the most part.

it look like Rodgers had give up on Allen as been like with central attacking midfielder Mkhitaryan that did not work, so  Rodgers think was to put  Coutinho central attacking midfielder,

so  you would think we see all pre season,  Coutinho central & Sterling,Ibe playing out wide, nope Allen still  central & Coutinho out wide,

The players BR has brought in have all had one thing in common - they can play multiple positions and be rotated according to tactics and availability.  This means that we have the ability to play what our manager considers our best XI, and the tactics will shift according to who's available.  Clearly, Rodgers agrees with us that the Allen/Hendo spot is the weakest link; they're better suited in smaller amounts of playing time, rather than consistent starters.  Therefore, he's looking to bring in a player who would move that slot out of the lineup - either a CAM to directly replace them (Mkhtaryan), or a LW to shift Coutinho centrally.  This DOES NOT mean that they aren't our best option at the moment, though.  Just because he'd be fine with moving Coutinho centrally if another LW option comes up does not mean starting Sterling is a better choice than starting Allen or Hendo for any given match.  The lineup you mentioned may be used when BR feels we will benefit from a little extra pace on the wings, or that the center won't be congested and Coutinho will have space to work, while the original lineup will be used at other times.  You're ignoring the flexibility, though, and you're convinced that everything fits a tight little narrative.  It doesn't.

when  Mkhitaryan that did not work it stop with us look at  central attacking midfielder & few links with us look at a left side players, does it take over mouth to buy a  central or wide player

Yes, in the real world it can.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There, that should be legible now.

Sorry but what is this new fashion of colors here, I understand the functionality in the above post but still...so unreadable!!!

Sorry, I tried to stick to readable colors (in retrospect yellow was a poor choice).

stevieg8 wrote:

vegfootball wrote:

RedOranje wrote:What?


No, seriously, what?



Did Rodgers' "love of Allen" stop him from signing another CM last summer in Sahin?  Did it stop him from signing another midfielder/attacker this summer in Alberto?  Has it stopped him from signing Aspas?  From pursuing Mkhitaryan? Costa?  

For the record, Allen HAS scored for Liverpool and has had a number of good and even great performances at the beginning of last season... they were simply overshadowed by the team's struggles as a whole.  He's also young, versatile, and is fit to play 90 minutes... all things that cannot be said for Adam during his time at LFC.  He offers diversity in our midfield options and has time on his side for proving his ability, much like Henderson.

And this silly "Rodgers is obsessed with Allen" stuff really is getting rather old.  Henderson actually made more appearances in all competitions than Allen last season, and that was with Allen acting as Lucas's cover while Lucas was injured.  They started the same number of games overall as well, so the "substitute" argument does not work.

like i said i don't get Rodgers,

2012-2013 season

he did not know what Sahin  Playing position position was ,he drop Henderson for Allen, he played Jonjo Shelvey out position so he could keep Allen in the team, he sold Adam so Allen had know one to fight for place,

but funny how had Rodgers try to keep  Allen in the team are best Midfield was Lucas,Henderson,Gerrard who went on to lose less game & score more goals

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2013-2014 pre season

it look like Rodgers had give up on Allen as been like with central attacking midfielder Mkhitaryan that did not work, so  Rodgers think was to put  Coutinho central attacking midfielder,

so  you would think we see all pre season,  Coutinho central & Sterling,Ibe playing out wide, nope Allen still  central & Coutinho out wide,

when  Mkhitaryan that did not work it stop with us look at  central attacking midfielder & few links with us look at a left side players, does it take over mouth to buy a  central or wide player

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alberto was to take Shelvey place as it other players  Rodgers did not like

Aspas is a Striker not a midfielder

I don't think you watched the same games I did... let's go through this point by point.

As I had to argue extensively in the general section, Sahin's best position for us was CAM.  I understand it's not what Sahin wanted to play, but at the start of the season, he was the DLP and Gerrard was at CAM, and Sahin's play was poor there.  We moved him to CAM and dropped Gerrard deeper, and he went on a run of scoring goals and getting assists.  However, he apparently acted out in training because STEVEN FREAKING GERRARD, THE LFC CAPTAIN was getting picked ahead of him in his chosen position.  Gerrard was always going to be first choice in his best position, and Sahin unfortunately took the brunt of that; but the fact that he failed as the DLP in a 3 man midfield when he was played there justifies BR's decision even further.

The majority of Allen's starts last season came during Lucas' injury, and therefore did not take place in a position Henderson could've filled.  Hendo is a B2B midfielder, but his strength lies further upfield, and he really can't put in a shift as a DM; Allen can when absolutely necessary.  Allen's starts were not taking away gametime from Henderson, though.  Why Hendo didn't get starts at the same time at CAM (since Gerrard occupied the DLP spot) is a different question, but is tied into the Sahin conversation above.

At the beginning of last year, Jonjo Shelvey was 20 years old, with fewer than 10 PL starts and 20 PL appearances to his name.  Joe Allen had come off several seasons of playing week in, week out for Swansea.  Just off the basis of fitness and stamina, Shelvey wasn't going to get the nod in the starting lineup every week over Allen - and that's IF (a big if) he was already more skilled than Allen.  Potential does not necessarily show up at 20, although you can see glimpses of it; sadly, last year, we didn't even see that from Shelvey.  Played out of position or not, young players need to grasp their opportunities with both hands when granted them, and after a couple of goals scored in Europa games early on, Shelvey was unimpressive on the pitch - losing possession, taking ambitious long shots that never came close, and scuffing easy chances in front of goal.  This is not what you want to see from a young player getting his run out in the first team.

Now, to respond to the idea of him being played out of position: Shelvey played one game, in the EL qualification rounds, as a false 9.  It was shortly after Borini's injury, and Suarez needed a midweek rest; anyone being played in that spot would've been out of position, and Shelvey got the pick.  He was also subbed in for our wingers a few times over the course of the season, less as a like for like substitution, and more to add another attacker; he was never meant to hug the byline, just add another goal threat.  However, more than 85% of his appearances last year came in the middle of the pitch, either as a CAM or a CM - both positions which Shelvey is projected for.  And he did not impress in any of those.  I'm a huge Jonjo fan and would've preferred we kept him (although I didn't mind the fee received, because there's a solid chance he won't pan out - like with any prospect), but he was not a quality player last year, and would not have helped us win games.  Dropping Allen for him would've been the wrong choice tactically, as shown by the times it happened.

So you list several players that you feel should've played ahead of Allen, and then claim he was fighting for one place due to the sale of Charlie Adam?  The logic doesn't quite work.

Are you forgetting Lucas was out the first half of the season?  When Allen got the majority of his playing time, Lucas was in the trainer's room.  Of course our midfield looked better with a real DM in it, that's just simple logic.  Considering that Lucas/Allen/Gerrard simply wasn't an option for half the season, I'd say comparing those stats is useless.  Now, Rodgers did drop Allen for Henderson when Lucas came back (or soon afterwards) due to a drop in Allen's form - which makes perfect sense to me.  He rode Allen's hot hand at the beginning of the season, but when the player started to fall off (reportedly due to injury, mind you), he switched his plan and moved a new player into the starting spot.  This shows flexibility to me, and seems to contradict your narrative of "BR loves Allen."  But so far all of your questions about our manager's decisions  have been based on faulty information, and when you look at the truth (in terms of stats and lineups), they make sense for the most part.

The players BR has brought in have all had one thing in common - they can play multiple positions and be rotated according to tactics and availability.  This means that we have the ability to play what our manager considers our best XI, and the tactics will shift according to who's available.  Clearly, Rodgers agrees with us that the Allen/Hendo spot is the weakest link; they're better suited in smaller amounts of playing time, rather than consistent starters.  Therefore, he's looking to bring in a player who would move that slot out of the lineup - either a CAM to directly replace them (Mkhtaryan), or a LW to shift Coutinho centrally.  This DOES NOT mean that they aren't our best option at the moment, though.  Just because he'd be fine with moving Coutinho centrally if another LW option comes up does not mean starting Sterling is a better choice than starting Allen or Hendo for any given match.  The lineup you mentioned may be used when BR feels we will benefit from a little extra pace on the wings, or that the center won't be congested and Coutinho will have space to work, while the original lineup will be used at other times.  You're ignoring the flexibility, though, and you're convinced that everything fits a tight little narrative.  It doesn't.

Yes, in the real world it can.

can not read all that as my have bad eyes at sec, it love good read  what i read thank you, i try but to relay to you

Rodgers talk about Joe Allen

from the right from the horse's mouth

" Rodgers explained: "Initially when I came in, we played with one holding midfielder and two advanced ones. I didn't feel that we had the guy that opened the door for everything so I played Joe in there because he knows how to control the game. He is courageous and will go and get the ball in any area. But our positioning ahead of that wasn't so good, because we were too open. We have switched the team to play with two holding midfielders and one further forward. That has been Steven more or less, because he is the one that can do everything.

The Liverpool manager is adamant Allen will play a more prominent offensive role when Lucas returns from a thigh injury next month. He added: "Joe, offensively, has more than what a lot of people have seen, just because he's had to play more of a sitting role. That comes when Lucas is back.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sahin struggled during six-month loan spell this season
• Blames manager Rodgers for playing him out of position

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/mar/14/nuri-sahin-liverpool-brendan-rodgers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
so 1st he buy Allen & i am sure  Rodgers say more about Allen  best position, then he say he got  no guy that opened the door for everything so just in put Allen, then sec late he say Gerrard is the man,

then he say is more Allen offensive player but just fill for Lucas as got no else to the job but Sahin could do Lucas job but played out position

work all that out

I already did work that out... It's all explained in my post. I understand it was long, there's a lot to it, but please give it a read before responding.

stevieg8 wrote:

vegfootball wrote:

RedOranje wrote:What?


No, seriously, what?



Did Rodgers' "love of Allen" stop him from signing another CM last summer in Sahin?  Did it stop him from signing another midfielder/attacker this summer in Alberto?  Has it stopped him from signing Aspas?  From pursuing Mkhitaryan? Costa?  

For the record, Allen HAS scored for Liverpool and has had a number of good and even great performances at the beginning of last season... they were simply overshadowed by the team's struggles as a whole.  He's also young, versatile, and is fit to play 90 minutes... all things that cannot be said for Adam during his time at LFC.  He offers diversity in our midfield options and has time on his side for proving his ability, much like Henderson.

And this silly "Rodgers is obsessed with Allen" stuff really is getting rather old.  Henderson actually made more appearances in all competitions than Allen last season, and that was with Allen acting as Lucas's cover while Lucas was injured.  They started the same number of games overall as well, so the "substitute" argument does not work.

like i said i don't get Rodgers,

2012-2013 season

he did not know what Sahin  Playing position position was ,he drop Henderson for Allen, he played Jonjo Shelvey out position so he could keep Allen in the team, he sold Adam so Allen had know one to fight for place,

but funny how had Rodgers try to keep  Allen in the team are best Midfield was Lucas,Henderson,Gerrard who went on to lose less game & score more goals

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2013-2014 pre season

it look like Rodgers had give up on Allen as been like with central attacking midfielder Mkhitaryan that did not work, so  Rodgers think was to put  Coutinho central attacking midfielder,

so  you would think we see all pre season,  Coutinho central & Sterling,Ibe playing out wide, nope Allen still  central & Coutinho out wide,

when  Mkhitaryan that did not work it stop with us look at  central attacking midfielder & few links with us look at a left side players, does it take over mouth to buy a  central or wide player

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Alberto was to take Shelvey place as it other players  Rodgers did not like

Aspas is a Striker not a midfielder

I don't think you watched the same games I did... let's go through this point by point.

As I had to argue extensively in the general section, Sahin's best position for us was CAM.  I understand it's not what Sahin wanted to play, but at the start of the season, he was the DLP and Gerrard was at CAM, and Sahin's play was poor there.  We moved him to CAM and dropped Gerrard deeper, and he went on a run of scoring goals and getting assists.  However, he apparently acted out in training because STEVEN FREAKING GERRARD, THE LFC CAPTAIN was getting picked ahead of him in his chosen position.  Gerrard was always going to be first choice in his best position, and Sahin unfortunately took the brunt of that; but the fact that he failed as the DLP in a 3 man midfield when he was played there justifies BR's decision even further.

The majority of Allen's starts last season came during Lucas' injury, and therefore did not take place in a position Henderson could've filled.  Hendo is a B2B midfielder, but his strength lies further upfield, and he really can't put in a shift as a DM; Allen can when absolutely necessary.  Allen's starts were not taking away gametime from Henderson, though.  Why Hendo didn't get starts at the same time at CAM (since Gerrard occupied the DLP spot) is a different question, but is tied into the Sahin conversation above.

At the beginning of last year, Jonjo Shelvey was 20 years old, with fewer than 10 PL starts and 20 PL appearances to his name.  Joe Allen had come off several seasons of playing week in, week out for Swansea.  Just off the basis of fitness and stamina, Shelvey wasn't going to get the nod in the starting lineup every week over Allen - and that's IF (a big if) he was already more skilled than Allen.  Potential does not necessarily show up at 20, although you can see glimpses of it; sadly, last year, we didn't even see that from Shelvey.  Played out of position or not, young players need to grasp their opportunities with both hands when granted them, and after a couple of goals scored in Europa games early on, Shelvey was unimpressive on the pitch - losing possession, taking ambitious long shots that never came close, and scuffing easy chances in front of goal.  This is not what you want to see from a young player getting his run out in the first team.

Now, to respond to the idea of him being played out of position: Shelvey played one game, in the EL qualification rounds, as a false 9.  It was shortly after Borini's injury, and Suarez needed a midweek rest; anyone being played in that spot would've been out of position, and Shelvey got the pick.  He was also subbed in for our wingers a few times over the course of the season, less as a like for like substitution, and more to add another attacker; he was never meant to hug the byline, just add another goal threat.  However, more than 85% of his appearances last year came in the middle of the pitch, either as a CAM or a CM - both positions which Shelvey is projected for.  And he did not impress in any of those.  I'm a huge Jonjo fan and would've preferred we kept him (although I didn't mind the fee received, because there's a solid chance he won't pan out - like with any prospect), but he was not a quality player last year, and would not have helped us win games.  Dropping Allen for him would've been the wrong choice tactically, as shown by the times it happened.

So you list several players that you feel should've played ahead of Allen, and then claim he was fighting for one place due to the sale of Charlie Adam?  The logic doesn't quite work.

Are you forgetting Lucas was out the first half of the season?  When Allen got the majority of his playing time, Lucas was in the trainer's room.  Of course our midfield looked better with a real DM in it, that's just simple logic.  Considering that Lucas/Allen/Gerrard simply wasn't an option for half the season, I'd say comparing those stats is useless.  Now, Rodgers did drop Allen for Henderson when Lucas came back (or soon afterwards) due to a drop in Allen's form - which makes perfect sense to me.  He rode Allen's hot hand at the beginning of the season, but when the player started to fall off (reportedly due to injury, mind you), he switched his plan and moved a new player into the starting spot.  This shows flexibility to me, and seems to contradict your narrative of "BR loves Allen."  But so far all of your questions about our manager's decisions  have been based on faulty information, and when you look at the truth (in terms of stats and lineups), they make sense for the most part.

The players BR has brought in have all had one thing in common - they can play multiple positions and be rotated according to tactics and availability.  This means that we have the ability to play what our manager considers our best XI, and the tactics will shift according to who's available.  Clearly, Rodgers agrees with us that the Allen/Hendo spot is the weakest link; they're better suited in smaller amounts of playing time, rather than consistent starters.  Therefore, he's looking to bring in a player who would move that slot out of the lineup - either a CAM to directly replace them (Mkhtaryan), or a LW to shift Coutinho centrally.  This DOES NOT mean that they aren't our best option at the moment, though.  Just because he'd be fine with moving Coutinho centrally if another LW option comes up does not mean starting Sterling is a better choice than starting Allen or Hendo for any given match.  The lineup you mentioned may be used when BR feels we will benefit from a little extra pace on the wings, or that the center won't be congested and Coutinho will have space to work, while the original lineup will be used at other times.  You're ignoring the flexibility, though, and you're convinced that everything fits a tight little narrative.  It doesn't.

Yes, in the real world it can.

part 2

Shelvey has been playing professional football from age of 16, has had 3 year playing in the Premier League, has play 11 Europa games, only 21

Allen only start playing professional football from age of 18 & was bit player a League 2 Swansea team, before join the reds Allen he only one year in the Premier League to Shelvey two years, also Allen before join the reds had not played Europa games but Shelvey, Allen 23 old