FCB vs FCB

there we go again..

Zealous wrote:

rwo power wrote:

Collblanc wrote:So you still conceded goals, right?

Bayern conceded still much less than any other club in the top 5 leagues (14 domestic, 10 in the CL, 1 in the Cup). You really expect them to not concede at all?

To compare: Barca: 33 domestic, 10 in the CL, 9 in the Cup.

That says more about the Bundesliga than it does about Bayern.

Came in to post this. Left satisfied

Feelsgood.jpg

Nah a strong defence shines thro irrespective of the competition, or lack thereof

Zealous wrote:That says more about the Bundesliga than it does about Bayern.

And Serie A, I guess? (4 goals for, zero against)

Funny how people think our good form and stats are because of a weak league. Look at Dortmund, 20 points behind us, still they are in the semi finals of CL and unbeaten in this competition. So?

League and CL is different.

Bundesliga only has one elite team, which is Bayern.

Yohan Modric wrote:League and CL is different.
Bundesliga only has one elite team, which is Bayern.

We'll see how things will look when elite Real meets one of the BL scrubs on Wednesday ^^

Dortmund isn't a scrub team. The rest outside the top 2 is. I don't know how else anyone could justify 3 away goals conceded in 15 games for Bayern. Dante, Boateng and Martinez aren't exactly Maldini, Baresi and Rijkaard in their primes. Neuer is quite error prone as well. For some mindboggling reason no one's mentioning it though. Quite the opposite, he's regarded as possibly the best goalkeeper in the world. Imagine the outrage if Victor Valdes did this:



But I guess it doesn't count because Germany was already winning and Neuer didn't care, right?

How about this then:



Or this:



Or this:




Leverkusen is what you would call a Bundesliga top 4 team. Last season they lost 1-7 against Barca in the most pathetic fashion. Schalke is also a top 4 team. Their home record in Bundi was 0.8 goals conceded per game last season. Against Athletic Bilbao they completely bottled it and conceded 4 at home. There are question marks all over the Bundesliga, especially outside Bayern and Dortmund.

Schalke almost always makes it to the knockout stages of the CL. Dortmund is in the CL semis, has already beat Real, City, and Shakhtar in the CL, and won the Bubdesliga two years in a row before this season. Leverkusen played Barcelona in the best year of their history. Hannover consistently has done well in the EL, and Hamburg and Bremen a few years ago were the two EL finalists.

Every team outside of Bayern are scrubs? The amount of blind La Liga love here is unbelievable. Outside of the Top 2, they are the weakest league of the Top 4.

rwo power wrote:

Yohan Modric wrote:League and CL is different.
Bundesliga only has one elite team, which is Bayern.

We'll see how things will look when elite Real meets one of the BL scrubs on Wednesday ^^

I'm not saying Dortmund/other Bundesliga teams are scrubs, I'm just saying Bayern's the only elite team in Bundesliga.

I wouldn't say Dortmund are on the level of Real Madrid/Barca/Man Utd/Bayern etc yet. Results aren't the only thing that determine whether a club is elite or not.

futbol wrote:

your not seriously using last season as an example

or are you ??

la bestia negra wrote:

futbol wrote:

your not seriously using last season as an example

or are you ??

Sorry. My bad. I forgot that it only counts between matchday 8 and 29 between the 1st and 63th minute when the moon orbit is in perfect condition with the sun when we're talking about Bayern.

People still not rating Bundesliga

Yohan Modric wrote:I'm not saying Dortmund/other Bundesliga teams are scrubs, I'm just saying Bayern's the only elite team in Bundesliga.

I wouldn't say Dortmund are on the level of Real Madrid/Barca/Man Utd/Bayern etc yet. Results aren't the only thing that determine whether a club is elite or not.

What else do you want? Dortmund did win the BL 2010/11, 2011/12 and the German Cup 2011/12, dominating the Bundesliga last season just as much as Bayern this season and actually leaving them behind by quite a bit. They are Nr.11 on the current Deloitte money league, they have a higher matchday attendance average than anyone else but Barcelona, their stadium was not so long ago awarded the rank of being Nr.1 stadium world-wide by the Times. They have some of the most exciting young talents in football with Mario Götze and Marco Reus. I think that sounds pretty cool to me.

rwo power wrote:

Yohan Modric wrote:I'm not saying Dortmund/other Bundesliga teams are scrubs, I'm just saying Bayern's the only elite team in Bundesliga.

I wouldn't say Dortmund are on the level of Real Madrid/Barca/Man Utd/Bayern etc yet. Results aren't the only thing that determine whether a club is elite or not.

What else do you want? Dortmund did win the BL 2010/11, 2011/12 and the German Cup 2011/12, dominating the Bundesliga last season just as much as Bayern this season and actually leaving them behind by quite a bit. They are Nr.11 on the current Deloitte money league, they have a higher matchday attendance average than anyone else but Barcelona, their stadium was not so long ago awarded the rank of being Nr.1 stadium world-wide by the Times. They have some of the most exciting young talents in football with Mario Götze and Marco Reus. I think that sounds pretty cool to me.

They deserve credit for winning the league twice and for striving to become a top club.

However currently a lot of their top players are constantly linked away from the club. Does that really happen with Real Madrid/Barca/Man Utd etc?

Elite teams don't really sell their top players. I know Gotze, Lewandowski etc haven't been sold yet, but they're still linked away from the club. Sahin and Kagawa have left in recent years.

Yohan Modric wrote:

rwo power wrote:

Yohan Modric wrote:I'm not saying Dortmund/other Bundesliga teams are scrubs, I'm just saying Bayern's the only elite team in Bundesliga.

I wouldn't say Dortmund are on the level of Real Madrid/Barca/Man Utd/Bayern etc yet. Results aren't the only thing that determine whether a club is elite or not.

What else do you want? Dortmund did win the BL 2010/11, 2011/12 and the German Cup 2011/12, dominating the Bundesliga last season just as much as Bayern this season and actually leaving them behind by quite a bit. They are Nr.11 on the current Deloitte money league, they have a higher matchday attendance average than anyone else but Barcelona, their stadium was not so long ago awarded the rank of being Nr.1 stadium world-wide by the Times. They have some of the most exciting young talents in football with Mario Götze and Marco Reus. I think that sounds pretty cool to me.

They deserve credit for winning the league twice and for striving to become a top club.

However currently a lot of their top players are constantly linked away from the club. Does that really happen with Real Madrid/Barca/Man Utd etc?

Elite teams don't really sell their top players. I know Gotze, Lewandowski etc haven't been sold yet, but they're still linked away from the club. Sahin and Kagawa have left in recent years.

Ronaldo was too. Dortmund has been an elite team for over 2 years now.

futbol wrote:
I had already pointed out the huge disparity between Bayern's defensive record in the Bundesliga and in the CL at the beginning of the season. rwo might remember our little discussion. Here are the statistics again:

Bayern defense in the Bundesliga under Heynckes: 0.56 goals conceded per game.
Bayern defense in the CL under Heynckes: 0.91 goals conceded per game.

While you can expect a little higher ratio in the CL due to the higher quality of the opposition on average (especially in knockout rounds), the difference with other top teams isn't that huge. Let's take Barca in the same time frame:

Barca defense in La Liga: 0.89 goals conceded per game.
Barca defense in CL: 0.91 goals conceded per game.

Bayern's Bundesliga form isn't reflecting their true abilities at all. Hannover losing 1-6 in the Allianz Arena against a full strength Bayern team I can understand. But losing 1-6 in their own backyard against a Bayern B team consisting of Pizarro, Tymoshchuk, Gustavo, Rafinha, van Buyten and Boateng? As a respectable midtable team which aims for Europa League places? Bayern have conceded 3 goals away from home all season in the Bundesliga. Barcelona have conceded 22. What do we make of this?

On the other hand, 6 out of 7 BuLi teams have better defensive records in European competition compared to league games, so what do we make of this?

likeastar wrote:

Yohan Modric wrote:

rwo power wrote:
What else do you want? Dortmund did win the BL 2010/11, 2011/12 and the German Cup 2011/12, dominating the Bundesliga last season just as much as Bayern this season and actually leaving them behind by quite a bit. They are Nr.11 on the current Deloitte money league, they have a higher matchday attendance average than anyone else but Barcelona, their stadium was not so long ago awarded the rank of being Nr.1 stadium world-wide by the Times. They have some of the most exciting young talents in football with Mario Götze and Marco Reus. I think that sounds pretty cool to me.

They deserve credit for winning the league twice and for striving to become a top club.

However currently a lot of their top players are constantly linked away from the club. Does that really happen with Real Madrid/Barca/Man Utd etc?

Elite teams don't really sell their top players. I know Gotze, Lewandowski etc haven't been sold yet, but they're still linked away from the club. Sahin and Kagawa have left in recent years.

Ronaldo was too. Dortmund has been an elite team for over 2 years now.

He was, however Man Utd's top players aren't regularly linked away/sold from the club unless there's a problem with the player. Like Rooney was linked away recently for not starting or something or not performing etc.

Yohan Modric wrote:They deserve credit for winning the league twice and for striving to become a top club.

However currently a lot of their top players are constantly linked away from the club. Does that really happen with Real Madrid/Barca/Man Utd etc?

Elite teams don't really sell their top players. I know Gotze, Lewandowski etc haven't been sold yet, but they're still linked away from the club. Sahin and Kagawa have left in recent years.

Well, being linked away by the media and actually moving are two different pairs of shoes. Kagawa Shinji always said he wanted to go to the PL even when he had just moved to Dortmund, so his desire to go absroad was know for a long time. That's why no one in Dortmund begrudged him the move when he actually went - he had always been honest about it. Nuri Sahin was a surprise indeed, but he is back to Dortmund again.

As for Robert Lewandowski - well, he is a class player, but there are always class players who want to move. As Dortmund do pay considerable lower wages than many other clubs, the call of money might indeed be a point, but on the other hand, if players like Marco Reus move to Dortmund even if they have a likely financially better offer from Bayern, says something about Dortmund, too.

And by the way, it may very well be that Robert Lewandowski will stay until 2014 and then go on a Bosman as Dortmund don't really need to sell him. This happened to other top clubs, too. See Michael Ballack from Bayern to Chelsea.

rwo power wrote:

Zealous wrote:That says more about the Bundesliga than it does about Bayern.

And Serie A, I guess? (4 goals for, zero against)

Rwo leave the trolling to the professionals

Juventus is hardly representative of Serie A's firepower considering half the forum could walk into their starting line up as a striker.

@Yohan

Yeah, we get it, they are not as financial stable (yet). But how does that matter when we talk about results on the pitch? Dortmund might not be an overall elite club, but they won the BuLi ahead of Bayern (the so called only elite club) two times in a row and they are in the CL semis and showed that they are capable of outplaying and beating Real and Bayern wich also means they are capable of winning the CL (eventhough they are slight underdogs).

they are not elite, yohan is right.. however they are a good team right now.. and they may still be in the next few years or so..

anyway this is a bayern vs barca thread so why talk about dortmund here;

Bayern are still a massive favorite here.

Anything but a win for them on Tuesday would be considered an upset.

Some of the stuff in here...

Schalke conceded 10 goals in 8 games in the CL. 46 goals in 30 games in the Bundesliga.

Dortmund conceded 9 goals in 10 games in the CL. 35 goals in 30 games in the Bundesliga.

Bundesliga stronger than Champions League.

6 of Schalke's 8 games came against Olympiacos, Montpellier and Galatasaray. So 3/4 of their opponents were from much lower ranked leagues (not even top 4). Taking this into account it's actually quite a bad statistic for a German top 4 team to have conceded 10 in 8 games. They went out against Galatasaray while conceding 3 goals at home and the year before against Athletic Bilbao in the EL (who finished the season in 10th place in La Liga), conceding 4 at home. "Bundesliga stronger than CL" isn't the conclusion I am drawing from this tbh.

With Dortmund we might get a better picture if we take their last 2 seasons into account (as I did with Bayern by the way) and not just their current run and then we have a completely different picture again.

But anyway. You people are distracting from my original point by trying to nitpick counter statistics. Bayern conceding 3 goals in 15 away games in the Bundesliga does not reflect their ability. Period. Bundesliga has been pathetic this season. If it's down to the teams being shit in general or if they are just shitting their pants against Bayern in particular I don't care. It certainly makes Bayern look far better than they are.

Well, I guess we will see after the meeting of the FCBs how good Bayern actually is.