Re: FCB vs FCB

by RealGunner Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:02 pm

What an amazing match this is going to be :bow:

by Albiceleste Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:14 pm

Barca should rest players as if they already won the league, like Bayern will do, with Messi Barca are the favorites.

by RealGunner Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:18 pm

Think Bayern are better than Barca as a team

by Albiceleste Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:20 pm

I could agree with that sentiment, they have better depth, better central defenders, better wingers, and arguably a better goalkeeper. It will take another special performance from Barcas stars, like in the last two rounds(although it was mainly messi last round), to get to the final.

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:22 pm

I don't think Messi will be enough this time, unless Barca recover 2011 levels of pressing and crisp, incisive passing which isn't happening.

by The Franchise Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:22 pm

futbol wrote:
The Franchise wrote:Dont know what game you was watching, against PSG our pressing was woeful.

Bring up the distance run all you like, how about you tell us how many balls we won in their half? Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Villa and Cesc combined for a grand total of 0.

Distance covered doesnt mean anything.

Why would they not press? The players have all publibly acknowledged that the intensity was lacking before the second Milan game. They know what went wrong. So why would they not press again? If they didn't win enough 1 on 1 battles then it was because the team wasn't fit enough, not because they didn't put in the effort.

Pedro's last game before PSG was against France on 26th March. Simply not match fit enough (and he gave away the ball which led to PSG's goal). Adriano's last game before PSG was on 17th March. Almost a whole month without match practice and then he's thrown into the game as a centerback (I rewatched the game again and most of the chances created by PSG were throughballs by Ibra inbehind Adriano who kept getting caught high up the pitch, like for PSG's goal). These things + the lack of Messi didn't exactly transmit calmness and security and PSG could smell it. Pique and Busquets started giving away cheap passes which they normally play blindfoldedly etc. This is not the game to judge Barca, fss. Let's talk in 2 weeks again.

I dont care what the hell they said, tell me what happened?

Use your eyes, not pointless words and stats with no relevance.

Not fit enough? From what? Please stop the excuses.

Pedro not match fit? He was the only one pressing...he won 2 balls, more than anyone. So there goes that excuse.

Adriano being fit has zero relevance to pressing, if you want to omit blame for anyone, its the centerbacks in terms of pressing.

Cant judge Barca on this game? How about the first leg? How about the Milan first leg? How about the last 2 Madrid games where pressing again was completely absent?

Stop talking about things which dont matter and start talking about pressing. Thats what you called me out on, so please stay on topic.

by RealGunner Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:22 pm

Barca have a better midfield though and that is vital in dominating and winning matches.

by The Franchise Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:23 pm

Zealous wrote:
futbol wrote:
Zealous wrote:Distance covered lol that doesn't indicate pressing at all. If I ran laps during the game I'd have great distance covered stats but that doesn't mean I'm pressing anyone.

PSG were playing rather deep in the second half so they were not covering much distance.

I'm fairly certain the Barca players weren't making just pointless lap runs.

You're last statement is much funnier though. Playing deep doesn't mean you don't have to cover ground. Most teams that play deep against Barca start to completely tire out after a while. Why do you think this is?

Obviously the laps thing was an extreme example but it still applies. There can be movement that isn't pressing. Distance covered is not an accurate indication of pressing.

As for your second point that only happens if the start chasing the ball around. That's not what PSG did.

The distance covered thing is obvious waffle.

Pirlo leads everyone in the CL in distance covered the last time I checked...anyone who thinks he even pretends to press......well...

by Doc Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:32 pm

Just, for the love all things holy, don't start Fabregas in the midfield. Really talented footballer but for whatever reason, doesn't work for the big time matches.

Viva vs Free Cat 1st leg...

by LeBéninois Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:47 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:I always thought you should just beat them at their own game. Much less risky than sitting back like a bunch of scrubs and hoping for sheer luck.

Easier said than done. Bayern have all the tools to hurt us though but being underdogs might help the team.
The main problem are pressing and defense. I don't think it will be sorted out in time but i hope that we shall manage to score one away goal.

by Babun Fri Apr 12, 2013 4:48 pm

Bayern are dead meat. I don't see how they could cope with 40% or less possession wihtout conceding. Their forwards aren't the most clinical ones either to take rare opportunities+ they're not used to Farca's play acting. I think they're not used to any team that makes them act reactive hmm

As I said Bayern won't progress...

by VivaStPauli Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:03 pm

This is all assuming Barca win the midfield battle though.

But the ref won't be Spanish, so how much diving will Barca really be able to pull off?

by sportsczy Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:12 pm

The way Barca play, they automatically take at least 60% of the possession... i don't care who they face. The key is which areas are they holding possession in. They're at their best if they recover a lot of balls in the opponent's half. If they are forced to recover the ball in their own half mostly, they are far less dangerous.

Playing Barca, like Spain NT, is very unique. You either have to sit deep and counter OR press them very aggressively in their own half. You can't play your regular tactics.

by BarrileteCosmico Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:17 pm

VivaStPauli wrote:This is all assuming Barca win the midfield battle though.

But the ref won't be Spanish, so how much diving will Barca really be able to pull off?

Go away troll

Bayern hardly has the moral high ground on this regard

by ioilersrock448 Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:35 pm

The one team I din't want Bayern to face. I think Barca will have the majority of the possesion which means that Bayern will have to rely on Ribery and Robben to be deadly on the counter and Mandzukic will have to play up front. Schweinsteiger will have to be a boss again and again against Barcelona and he has been great all year so it should be a good showdown. I'm not sure if Bayern can stop Messi, but who knows.

Should be a great semi final.

by VivaStPauli Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:36 pm

Mandzukic is out for the home match at the Allianz though. Pizarro or Gomez will have to do. Both teams have a couple important players on the edge of suspension btw.

by McAgger Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:49 pm

Abramovich wrote:
Harry Redknapp wrote:Unbelievable that Barca get the return leg at Camp Nou.

AGAIN

by halamadrid2 Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:54 pm

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
VivaStPauli wrote:This is all assuming Barca win the midfield battle though.

But the ref won't be Spanish, so how much diving will Barca really be able to pull off?

Go away troll

Bayern hardly has the moral high ground on this regard

omg. They look so bad they would get laughed at by the spanish referees who tend to fall for these dives rofl

by Real Kandahar Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:08 pm

futbol wrote:
billy_gr wrote:it's Bayern vs Messi...if the short guy does magic we proceed if not we wont

No, it's not. It's Barca vs. Bayern.

no it's not, its messi vs bayern

its not "more than just a club" ... its "not even a club without argentine" :coffee:

by futbol Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:11 pm

The Franchise wrote:

The distance covered thing is obvious waffle.

Pirlo leads everyone in the CL in distance covered the last time I checked...anyone who thinks he even pretends to press......well...

Try again. I obviously never said a single player's distance covered number is representative for a team concept called pressing. In Pirlo's individual case he is the main playmaker and has to be in constant movement to make himself available, he doesn't cover ground to defend obviously. However as a team concept pressing is just another word for running (obviously picking a single player won't give you the whole picture).

What went wrong against PSG wasn't the lack of pressing. When Pedro gave away the ball which led to PSG's goal he was immediately closing down Verratti and even got a touch to the ball but still lost the individual battle. Verratti stayed in possession and immediately played a long ball to Ibra over the whole Barca midfield. No pressing in the world is going to stop that move (it's just impossible to successfully close down every single time in 90 minutes). The main question that should be asked is something completely different:

FCB vs FCB - Page 6 Msct5kbb

(look how tight Pedro is to Verratti before he plays the pass, how much more presing do you want?)

Why in the hell do Barcelona have 7 players (including both fullbacks) pushed high up the pitch like that when they have a 2 away goal advantage? Why are they literally begging to get punished on the counter? With that style of play it's obvious that in 90 minutes at least 1 long ball will completely take them apart. All it takes is just 1 long ball really. I have seen this kind of move take Barca apart for the 92758th time now. The most comical one was Khedira assisting Ronaldo in the Supercopa return leg when he just brainlessly hoofed the ball upfront. Lampard assisting Ramires in Camp Nou. Or Montolivo who almost assisted Niang with a long ball from inside his own box. Laughing

With Spain under del Bosque I don't see this happening. They have infinitely more balance at the back:

1. Ramos is a centerback. Adriano, Mascherano, Song are not.
2. Arbeloa is a defensive-minded fullback. He's shit but at least he's staying at the back. Alves and Alba both venture forward at the same time.
3. Alonso-Busquets gives extra stability in the middle. Barca is the only top team team which plays with a single holding midfielder. Madrid are protecting their back 4 with Alonso and Khedira. Bayern are protecting their back 4 with Piggy and Martinez.

Why is the management not fixing this?

Other chances that were created in the PSG game were also mostly caused by individual mistakes. It started with Busquets in the 4th minute playing the ball into Lavezzi's feet. Pique did something similar. Valdes directly hoofed the ball into a PSG striker's feet. And of course Barca lost the aerial battles (Lucas vs. Alba). How is more aggressive pressing going to stop the defenders from not being able to pass the ball out of the back properly?

1. Buy defenders.
2. Don't play with 2 wingbacks at the same time.
3. Don't play such a ridiculous highline. 7 players at the same time in the final third is just a nonsense system.
4. ???
5. Then talk about pressing.

by Zealous Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:23 pm

Expect some epic diving from both teams :I'munoriginal:

by Great Leader Sprucenuce Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:26 pm

Zeal that sig lmao

by futbol Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:38 pm

PS: Sometimes I believe people try to be too clever by not pointing out the blatantly obvious. Barca's defense doesn't suck because Barca isn't pressing anymore. It sucks because prime Alves-Pique-prime Puyol-prime Abidal has turned into past his prime Alves-WakaWaka-Adriano-Alba lately. 3 wingbacks, 1 ballplaying centerback with 1 defensive midfielder infront of them and people complain about pressing. Laughing

I'm actually wondering how Ibrahimovic didn't score a single legal ( :coffee:

) goal past that shower of shit. Laughing

Anyone who watches old Clasicos from Pep's heydays (there are plenty on YouTube) will confirm that Barca's pressing hasn't been as God-like as people want to remember it to be. Barca always conceded chances and goals against proper teams. Even against Arsenal they conceded 2 in the Emirates. Twice. With Abidal, Pique and Puyol in the backline. Against Chelsea they could have easily conceded a couple of penalties. Drenthe bottled a 1 on 1 with Valdes in the Camp Nou. Bendtner almost toepoked Barca out of the CL. When they demolished Madrid in the Bernabeu with 6 goals, they still conceded 2. Really nothing new my friends.

by Doc Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:42 pm

The first Robben dive in that video was glorious. The double flop technique, very hard to pull off...

by ronalessi Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:51 pm

FCB are no match for FCM.

by The Franchise Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:31 pm

futbol wrote:
The Franchise wrote:

The distance covered thing is obvious waffle.

Pirlo leads everyone in the CL in distance covered the last time I checked...anyone who thinks he even pretends to press......well...

Try again. I obviously never said a single player's distance covered number is representative for a team concept called pressing. In Pirlo's individual case he is the main playmaker and has to be in constant movement to make himself available, he doesn't cover ground to defend obviously. However as a team concept pressing is just another word for running (obviously picking a single player won't give you the whole picture).

What went wrong against PSG wasn't the lack of pressing. When Pedro gave away the ball which led to PSG's goal he was immediately closing down Verratti and even got a touch to the ball but still lost the individual battle. Verratti stayed in possession and immediately played a long ball to Ibra over the whole Barca midfield. No pressing in the world is going to stop that move (it's just impossible to successfully close down every single time in 90 minutes). The main question that should be asked is something completely different:

(look how tight Pedro is to Verratti before he plays the pass, how much more presing do you want?)

Why in the hell do Barcelona have 7 players (including both fullbacks) pushed high up the pitch like that when they have a 2 away goal advantage? Why are they literally begging to get punished on the counter? With that style of play it's obvious that in 90 minutes at least 1 long ball will completely take them apart. All it takes is just 1 long ball really. I have seen this kind of move take Barca apart for the 92758th time now. The most comical one was Khedira assisting Ronaldo in the Supercopa return leg when he just brainlessly hoofed the ball upfront. Lampard assisting Ramires in Camp Nou. Or Montolivo who almost assisted Niang with a long ball from inside his own box. With Spain under del Bosque I don't see this happening. They have infinitely more balance at the back:

1. Ramos is a centerback. Adriano, Mascherano, Song are not.
2. Arbeloa is a defensive-minded fullback. He's shit but at least he's staying at the back. Alves and Alba both venture forward at the same time.
3. Alonso-Busquets gives extra stability in the middle. Barca is the only top team team which plays with a single holding midfielder. Madrid are protecting their back 4 with Alonso and Khedira. Bayern are protecting their back 4 with Piggy and Martinez.

Why is the management not fixing this?

Other chances that were created in the PSG game were also mostly caused by individual mistakes. It started with Busquets in the 4th minute playing the ball into Lavezzi's feet. Pique did something similar. Valdes directly hoofed the ball into a PSG striker's feet. And of course Barca lost the aerial battles (Lucas vs. Alba). How is more aggressive pressing going to stop the defenders from not being able to pass the ball out of the back properly?

1. Buy defenders.
2. Don't play with 2 wingbacks at the same time.
3. Don't play such a ridiculous highline. 7 players at the same time in the final third is just a nonsense system.
4. ???
5. Then talk about pressing.

Are you seriously going to ignore the post I made which was directly related to what we were discussing? Seriously?

Your picture is just one single goal...Pedro shouldnt of been pressing him anyway, the only reason he did was because he passed it directly to him and was going in that direction to recieve a return pass.

But more importantly, you cant take one play, you need to take the entire game, all the chances, all the possible chances, the reason we lacked control.

Showing one play (even the goal) which shows some level of pressure is pretty much unimportant because it isnt reflective of the whole game.

Look, we all know the individual problems with the defenders, its not new. But it doesnt matter, you can have whatever defenders you like, if you dont have a functional gameplan they will always fail.

Your list it frankly stupid. There is nothing wrong with high line, especially not if you press. Dont dimiss pressing as "then talk about it"...no, its the fundemental difference for us, its what allows us to survive defensively while fielding many offensive and creative players. So dont dismiss pressing, you clearly have no idea about its importance.

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