How do you break a culture/atmosphere of losing?

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Post by halamadrid2 Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:58 am

I watched the game yesterday I noticed enrique losing the ball very easily be it a bad pass or just losing it while trying to get up. things like that opens up counter attacks for the opposition teams granted west brom until lukaku came in opted for long balls to long rather than pass it along the ground.

I think your issue is not having many bodies in the opposition box suarez likes to hover around it leaving the inside empty barring the occassional runs by henderson or any other midfielder of yours. as for your defence I think aggger has been a little poor with his marking on corners and altho your midfield do press your defence still sits back creating that little gap opening up some room for someone skilled to slip a ball through. agger should move up and press the moment the opposition AM gets the ball this would give them no time to think. it has proved a good tool for many teams and I even saw west brom do that yesterday why pool like to play with a flat backline is beyond me.

also no offence but both your fullbacks suck. I thought downing looked good dont know why he was subbed. all you are missing is that one body in the box whose name is not suarez. sturridge could be the one.

as for the result yesterday you were just unlucky it wss just one of those days you say to yourself its just not our day is it? I for one thought it was a travesty you hadn't scored in the first half like wtf how did the ball not want tk go in :brickwall:


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Post by Raptorgunner Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:01 am

Liverpool must build new stadium. :whistle:
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Post by Zealous Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:11 am

It has to come from the people at the top. All successful clubs have one man in their history that changed things by bringing in a whole new attitude.

Madrid have Bernabeu, Arsenal have Chapman, Ajax have Michels, Chelsea have Abramovich.

These guys through different methods instilled something into their respectful clubs. Good leadership is the right answer to this question.
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Post by sportsczy Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:33 am

The thing is, the ownership at Liverpool is wealthier than any of the others except the sovereign owners... They have roughly 20 billion dollars available to them with the ability to call on more funds. With the Boston Red Sox, they have shown a willingness to spend and spend big.

So what's the issue? The ownership doesn't know football very well. What's worse... they got burned by the current management in terms of their purchases in the first 18 months of ownership. So now, they are going to take their time to get up the learning curve in terms of footy. Then, they will make the necessary management changes and open the checkbook.

The downside is that they feel the venture is not worth it and unload. Colony Capital did it with PSG and i can see it happening with Liverpool. These guys are investors. Their only goal is to make money at an acceptable return. They have no emotional attachment or passion for the game.
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Post by DeletedUser#1 Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:55 am

It's not about that.

It's about being mentally fragile.

The moment Gerrard missed the penalty, the ENTIRE team gave up. You would look at their faces and you'd see "This isn't gonna be our night, so we may as well not bother for rest of the game"

and for WBA, it was the opposite, the moment Foster saved the peno, it was crystal clear they were boosted and were going to win.

Imagine if it was Man U, down 1-0 with 10 minutes to go. You'd bet your life they'd go on and AT LEAST tie the game.

Too often, 50/50s don't go our way either. The game reminded me of Arsenal vs Stoke last week. Arsenal dominant, but when they got a lucky break, they won it (Deflected free-kick). We got our lucky break yesterday with the penalty, but we bottled it as per usual and it bit us back in the ass

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Post by sportsczy Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:19 am

The terms "Arsenal" and "lucky" don't go together lol. The terms "break" does though since every key player gets injured for long periods of time in a season. No different in this one with Diaby, Sagna and Wilshere out for the entire first half and now Gibbs and Vermaelen. Koscielny is injured too. Difference is that Wenger is one of the best managers out there and manages regardless and Arsenal has talent on the bench.

Liverpool lacks talent and Rogers is not on Wenger's level. One of these is fixable and Rogers is still good imo.
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Post by DeletedUser#1 Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:27 am

^ I just used it as an example mate. When a dominant team is struggling to make the break-through, you get that slice of fortune or 50/50. Of course if our passing in the final 3rd was sharper (like it was vs City, and the previous 3 home games at anfield where we scored 12 goals), we wouldn't need that slice of fortune.

But WHEN WE GOT IT ! WE BOTTLED IT. not blaming anyone else, but our own players here. When Arsenal got it, they made the most of it through that free-kick.

It's also to note that successful teams and winners get more of those fortunes, it's a lot about belief and mentality. You know it's gonna happen for you and it happens. Over the past few years, the mentality of not winning enough games has gone into Liverpool's culture and it shows on occasions like that. The team lacks the necessary arrogance. That's what needs fixing according to OP.

I am strongly against the owner's policy of signing young u-23 players only, as IMO, most of them lack that arrogance and mentality. We need a couple of ESTABLISHED winners who've proven they won't buckle under pressure (Suarez for example had proved it in Ajax n Uruguay), in order to fix this mentally fragile team.

The mentality of our team is terrible and has been for 3-4 years. We barely win games when going behind, because the team lacks belief that they can overcome it. Compare it to United's belief and it's an ocean of difference and that's one thing I absolutely admire about our most hated rivals. Their hunger for winning games, mentality and belief is fantastic !

I swear I am not saying it with hindsight, but I was 100% sure Gerrard was going to miss his penalty when I saw the look on his eyes. We aren't arrogant enough. That's why I didn't mind Sturridge's so called "ATTITUDE". Nice guys don't win you football games, arrogant assholes do (e.g. Stturidge, Suarez, Gerrard, etc)

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Post by DeviAngel Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:32 am

Rossoneri Ninja wrote:
ynwa wrote:
B-Mac MUFC wrote:to many average players makes for an average team. aside from gerrard and suarez i don't know who i would call world class on liverpool, reina used to be but his game has slipped...maybe johnson when hes on his best

stability at a management and ownership level also helps too

aside from van persie and rooney i don't know who i would call world class on manchester united............

aside from chiellini and vidal i don't know who i would call world class on juventus..........

It's a stupid argument. You DON'T NEEED world class players to have a good squad. You need chemistry. You need players to be on the same page. You can't put A+B together and expect them to be on the same mental wavelength as each other. The players are still adapting to Rodgers philosophy. This takes time to do. Not 7 months into Rodgers debut season. You also have to consider the fact that we're still trying to get rid of the stupid position we put ourselves under G+H AND under Commolli... I mean, we still play Downing ffs.

Not that I'm a Juve lover but I think you missed Pirlo, Buffon and Marchisio.

cheers

The thing is that the midfield is winning you the game, the midfield is the key in any formation and Liverpool's midfield is from average quality in my eyes. I like the play that liverpool has currently and the attacking thing but aside from Gerrard who is old now I see no1 capable of doing the alla pirlo or Vidal/Marchisio job.

But I think things slowly are getting back in place with Liverpool


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Post by mr-r34 Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:50 pm

Harry Redknapp wrote:

I swear I am not saying it with hindsight, but I was 100% sure Gerrard was going to miss his penalty when I saw the look on his eyes. We aren't arrogant enough. That's why I didn't mind Sturridge's so called "ATTITUDE". Nice guys don't win you football games, arrogant assholes do (e.g. Stturidge, Suarez, Gerrard, etc)


I called it as well for some reason i just new it wasn't going in.
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Post by zizzle Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:05 pm

Liverpool reminds me of Inter tbh. We had to wait 18 years without winning a title before we got fortunate, and it seemed like the more we spent the worse we got. Obviously the players were not the problem because we arguably had the best squad in the world in 1998-2000 and we still won nothing. The managers were not the problem because even Lippi was given the boot after losing the CL qualification round to some unknown team.

The first step to end that cycle was stability. Moratti stepped down from the presidency seat, we hired Mancini and we gave him enough time to build his squad. Sure Caliopoli helped but the team that won the first title in 2007 was the core of the CL team in 2010. It's just the mentality that changed.

Liverpool has a good squad that can become great with a few signings. Your best bet is to stick around with a coach who has a vision. it doesnt have to be the best vision, but as long as the team is growing its a step to the right direction
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Post by McAgger Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:10 pm

Zealous wrote:It has to come from the people at the top. All successful clubs have one man in their history that changed things by bringing in a whole new attitude.

Madrid have Bernabeu, Arsenal have Chapman, Ajax have Michels, Chelsea have Abramovich.

These guys through different methods instilled something into their respectful clubs. Good leadership is the right answer to this question.

wtf are you on about?? All of those guys are dead except Abramovich. What do they have to do with the current state of the club?? We've had Shankly, who was one of the greatest leaders world of sport has every seen. Moot point that.
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Post by McAgger Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:18 pm

sportsczy wrote:A team is a puzzle... you don't need superstars at every position. You need players that fit around the handful of superstars you have. So who are the stars at Liverpool? I can think of 1 and that's Suarez. It's not enough. liverpool needs a star in the midfield and one on defense. Liverpool has to go and get talent.

Which brings me to my next point... I have no idea why Newcastle comes to France and gets very good players cheaply and clubs like Liverpool just stand by and watch. If you're careful about spending, France is the perfect place to come. Don't you think Sissoko, Gouffran, Debuchy and Mbiwa would have jumped on a Liverpool offer?

I don't think Rogers is a the problem at all. I feel the scouting is poor and the team is badly constructed, which falls on management.

If the club is smart, they would pounce on players like Mangala, Alessandrini, Aubameyang and others. Mangala would cost a lot because Porto is not cheap. But the others can be had for a song.

You talk about how we need superstars and then you go on about signing the likes of Alessandrini, Mangala, and Aubemeyang. Laughing

Mind you we've improved in our transfers since Rodgers has come in. Coutinho, Borini, Allen, Yesil, Sturridge will come good in the future.
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Post by stevieg8 Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:09 pm

sportsczy wrote:The thing is, the ownership at Liverpool is wealthier than any of the others except the sovereign owners... They have roughly 20 billion dollars available to them with the ability to call on more funds. With the Boston Red Sox, they have shown a willingness to spend and spend big.

So what's the issue? The ownership doesn't know football very well. What's worse... they got burned by the current management in terms of their purchases in the first 18 months of ownership. So now, they are going to take their time to get up the learning curve in terms of footy. Then, they will make the necessary management changes and open the checkbook.

The downside is that they feel the venture is not worth it and unload. Colony Capital did it with PSG and i can see it happening with Liverpool. These guys are investors. Their only goal is to make money at an acceptable return. They have no emotional attachment or passion for the game.

Your numbers are WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY off. NESV doesn't top even 1 billion, let alone 20. They don't spend above revenue on the Red Sox either. These are money making ventures, and they don't spend outside their means unless it's to make more money in the future, and in those cases they don't do it for very long. They just happen to own the second biggest cash cow in baseball.

Seriously though, I have no idea where you got the idea they're rich. They're not even close to the wealth some of these other owners have access to.
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Post by Gil Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:07 pm

You guys are overstating the amount of talent needed.

Suarez is an elite talent.

Sturridge, Agger, Lucas, Gerrard & Johnson are all very good role players.

They just need 1 or 2 elite players to complement Suarez and they're instant contenders.

Give the 08/09 team of prime Torres & Gerrard, Alonso and Mascherano....Suarez and the current depth they have and they win at least 3 of the last 5 English League titles.
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Post by Zealous Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:26 pm

Messiah "Aggerswagger" wrote:
Zealous wrote:It has to come from the people at the top. All successful clubs have one man in their history that changed things by bringing in a whole new attitude.

Madrid have Bernabeu, Arsenal have Chapman, Ajax have Michels, Chelsea have Abramovich.

These guys through different methods instilled something into their respectful clubs. Good leadership is the right answer to this question.

wtf are you on about?? All of those guys are dead except Abramovich. What do they have to do with the current state of the club?? We've had Shankly, who was one of the greatest leaders world of sport has every seen. Moot point that.

No it isn't. I was just using them as examples. But a club needs good leadership at the top regardless. Pissing millions away for average players like Liverpool did is just terribad decision making at the top. You can bet that if Shankly were still alive and at Liverpool he wouldn't have let that happen.
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