How do you break a culture/atmosphere of losing?

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Post by stevieg8 Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:50 pm

I genuinely can't fathom this Liverpool team. After all my years watching sports, I have never followed a team with this type of ability to lose. It's not a lack of quality, it's (for lack of a better word) bad luck. But it's so consistent, you can't call it luck - luck follows the law of statistics, and these things are supposed to even out over time. Well, either Liverpool is due for a title run for the ages next season, or there's some real problem with the club's mentality.

Since the beginning of last season, the following problems have occurred:
Liverpool has dealt with lengthy injuries and lengthy suspensions to EVERY major player on the team - Lucas, Gerrard, Agger, Suarez, Reina.

Bad decisions have been made by refs both for and against Liverpool, don't get me wrong - but it seems that the game deciding errors are consistently going against Liverpool. Calling goals back, poor red cards, missed red cards, phantom penalties, failure to call clear penalties - you name it, it's happened in spades. I saw a blog post earlier this year - nothing official, which is why I can't find it again - that examined major referee mistakes, and found that Suarez alone had been less fortunate than all but three teams. Granted that's all very subjective, but it was a statistical breakdown (by a non-Liverpool fan, for the record) of what most Liverpool fans have been seeing with the eye test. Whether or not we've had the MOST problems with the ref is certainly up for debate, but I think most neutrals will agree we've had a hard time of it recently.

Last season we were far and away the best team at hitting the woodwork.

This season we commonly dominate teams and walk away with 1 or 0 points. Case in point are the Arsenal/Man City games, even the Aston Villa game from a month ago had Liverpool clearly ahead. Today, West Brom scored with their VERY FIRST SHOT of the game after the 80th minute, and as I'm writing this they've made it 2-0.

These sort of lapses in concentration or seemingly uncontrollable events are very common. I don't understand why, and I'm not sure how the team should fix it. Does anyone else have experience with this?

P.S. if anyone is thinking of trolling or talking about quality of players, kindly **** off. If you don't watch Liverpool regularly, you'll only know the results - which are caused by the things I'm talking about. For the most part, it doesn't seem to be the quality of the players preventing Liverpool from making top 4, as evidenced by their play 89 of the 90 minutes every game.

Edit: I forgot to mention how GKs seem to have their career best games against us regularly, and bad teams up their game against Liverpool while playing lazily/poorly against other top teams.


Last edited by stevieg8 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by mr-r34 Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:55 pm

It's black magic, fergies black magic. There is no other explanation.
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Post by sportsczy Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:05 pm

A team is a puzzle... you don't need superstars at every position. You need players that fit around the handful of superstars you have. So who are the stars at Liverpool? I can think of 1 and that's Suarez. It's not enough. liverpool needs a star in the midfield and one on defense. Liverpool has to go and get talent.

Which brings me to my next point... I have no idea why Newcastle comes to France and gets very good players cheaply and clubs like Liverpool just stand by and watch. If you're careful about spending, France is the perfect place to come. Don't you think Sissoko, Gouffran, Debuchy and Mbiwa would have jumped on a Liverpool offer?

I don't think Rogers is a the problem at all. I feel the scouting is poor and the team is badly constructed, which falls on management.

If the club is smart, they would pounce on players like Mangala, Alessandrini, Aubameyang and others. Mangala would cost a lot because Porto is not cheap. But the others can be had for a song.

Time to get progressive at Liverpool.
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Post by DuringTheWar Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:08 pm

So you dominated the game against arsenal? im pretty sure arsenal dominated that game by a large margin and forced liverpool to play on the counter attack, whixch they did successfully given arsenals shambolic defending.

I wouldnt make an isue out of it but it makes me wonder what else you wrote is false
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Post by REWB Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:09 pm

you can say "unlucky" with finishing etc, all you want, but the fact is you still conceded 2 goals at HOME to westbrom, thats just poor.
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Post by Gil Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:11 pm

Sturridge didn't play and you had 18 shots compared to 0 for WBA before Lukaku came on including a penalty. Wouldn't be worried if I were you.

The depth is there, just need a star to complement Suarez and Sturridge. Maybe Coutinho is that player.
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Post by Great Leader Sprucenuce Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:18 pm

Gil wrote:Sturridge didn't play and you had 18 shots compared to 0 for WBA before Lukaku came on including a penalty. Wouldn't be worried if I were you.

The depth is there, just need a star to complement Suarez and Sturridge. Maybe Coutinho is that player.

I would, they are 9th in the table.

Rodgers is really doing no better than Dalglish results wise.

These conversations remind me of the same i had on here last season, i was told it will be better next season and i'm not seeing that.

Having shots on goal and losing isn't exactly something to be ecstatic about.

We had 34 shots on goal against Swansea earlier in the season, that means nothing tbh.

Creating chances and losing games 2 years on the trot is something a bit more than luck... there's deeper problems there.
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Post by Lex Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:23 pm

How dare Liverpool try and take away our "most inconsistent team in the PL" trophy Mad
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Post by Onyx Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:23 pm

Foster had a good game. And with Rodgers it's new project.

And yeh, Liverpool had 25 shots, however 7 were on target.

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Post by stevieg8 Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:24 pm

What Mole said is precisely accurate. I wouldn't be worried if it were a one-off, but it happens regularly. McAlley's header was literally their first shot of the game, and yet it put them up 1-0.

REWB, thanks for doing precisely what I asked for people not to. Either you didn't watch the West Brom game, or you genuinely don't understand how football works, because if both of those things were true, you'd realize we weren't poor at all for the first 82 minutes - quite the opposite. If you're judging Liverpool based solely on their results, you're well off base.

Diego - you're right, we didn't dominate the Arsenal game. We were largely outplayed, and I was happy to come out of it with a draw. It was a poor example for what I'm talking about, and yet at the same time, the manner in which we blew the lead - 2 goals in under 5 minutes - fits perfectly into this dark cloud that is hanging over the team. I apologize for mischaracterizing that though, you're definitely right.
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Post by DuringTheWar Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:34 pm

Well the first goal you conceded against us was a mistake by agger and it looks like he did pretty much the same thing again today which basically lost you the game, as well as then getting beaten lukaku very easily for the second. Added to the penalty miss you basically shot yourselves in the foot with this one, maybe today it was a mentality problem, but id question aggers mistakes more than that
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Post by stevieg8 Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:41 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Well the first goal you conceded against us was a mistake by agger and it looks like he did pretty much the same thing again today which basically lost you the game, as well as then getting beaten lukaku very easily for the second. Added to the penalty miss you basically shot yourselves in the foot with this one, maybe today it was a mentality problem, but id question aggers mistakes more than that

Some games it's agger, some it's skrtel. sometimes it's because we lack depth and had to start wisdom, some games it's that enrique and johnson were poor. sometimes gerrard scuffs a backpass, and some days suarez misses repeated sitters. sometimes we miss a penalty, sometimes it doesn't even get called.

there's always something, and it's always something different - and it seems to happen in the most frustrating ways. i can handle the days when we get legitimately outplayed for most of the game. it's a tough day at the office, you shake it off, come back in the next time. what i can't deal with is how often our losses seem to be fluky - because i don't see what the path forward is. how do you fix something that doesn't seem to make sense?
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Post by Onyx Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:46 pm

Well if Agger and Skrtel played for Real Madrid and 'some games' they made mistakes, I think I'd start to question their ability. Same with Johnson and Enrique.

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Post by B-Mac Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:51 pm

to many average players makes for an average team. aside from gerrard and suarez i don't know who i would call world class on liverpool, reina used to be but his game has slipped...maybe johnson when hes on his best

stability at a management and ownership level also helps too
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Post by daneq Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:31 pm

Management doesn't seem to hold players accountable. Liverpool lack leadership. Individuals need to take responsibility and look inward to how they can be a stronger link in the chain. There needs to be a leader who facilitates this process by evaluating how each guy will respond best and push the right buttons. A high tide raises all boats.

Sure, they dont have the quality to win the PL right now, but that's a different issue for me. There is enough quality there to beat west brom at home...
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Post by Juveman17 Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:45 am

Buy less English players like other PL teams. No need to stay back in the 20th century when there is much better talent overseas.
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Post by Grooverider Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:52 am

sportsczy wrote:A team is a puzzle... you don't need superstars at every position. You need players that fit around the handful of superstars you have. So who are the stars at Liverpool? I can think of 1 and that's Suarez. It's not enough. liverpool needs a star in the midfield and one on defense. Liverpool has to go and get talent.

Which brings me to my next point... I have no idea why Newcastle comes to France and gets very good players cheaply and clubs like Liverpool just stand by and watch. If you're careful about spending, France is the perfect place to come. Don't you think Sissoko, Gouffran, Debuchy and Mbiwa would have jumped on a Liverpool offer?

I don't think Rogers is a the problem at all. I feel the scouting is poor and the team is badly constructed, which falls on management.

If the club is smart, they would pounce on players like Mangala, Alessandrini, Aubameyang and others. Mangala would cost a lot because Porto is not cheap. But the others can be had for a song.

Time to get progressive at Liverpool.

Yup. Quite accurate. :coffee:
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Post by Red Alert Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:33 am

It's not bad-luck. It's simply too many inconsistent performances from our key players, including "leader" Pepe Reina. (We'd be 3rd if it wasn't for his mistakes this season...) Probably very harsh, but he really is not the same person I used to watch. I have just as much faith in him keeping the ball out than Brad Jones... The only reason why he's picked above Jones at this point is because of his ability to pass the ball...
How many times do the opposition have 1 or 2 shots on target only to find the back of the net? Lapse of concentration also plays a part... but yeah. I'm sure if we had a flexible keeper we'd be in a better position.
We failed to have a goal-scorer in the first 6 months or so. With Lucas' return we can only go up.
We'll finish top 6. I'm quite comfortable about it. We don't have too many hard games after this season.

juveman17 wrote:Buy less English players like other PL teams. No need to stay back in the 20th century when there is much better talent overseas.


Reina
GJ Skrtel Agger Enrique
Lucas Gerrard Hendo
Suarez ------ Downing
Sturridge

I only count 5 players that are English... with Downing most likely to lose his spot for Coutinho.

As for signings under Rodgers thus far:

Coutinho
Borini
Sahin (loan)
Assaidi
Allen

Sturridge

That English influence.
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Post by Red Alert Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:40 am

B-Mac MUFC wrote:to many average players makes for an average team. aside from gerrard and suarez i don't know who i would call world class on liverpool, reina used to be but his game has slipped...maybe johnson when hes on his best

stability at a management and ownership level also helps too

aside from van persie and rooney i don't know who i would call world class on manchester united............

aside from chiellini and vidal i don't know who i would call world class on juventus..........

It's a stupid argument. You DON'T NEEED world class players to have a good squad. You need chemistry. You need players to be on the same page. You can't put A+B together and expect them to be on the same mental wavelength as each other. The players are still adapting to Rodgers philosophy. This takes time to do. Not 7 months into Rodgers debut season. You also have to consider the fact that we're still trying to get rid of the stupid position we put ourselves under G+H AND under Commolli... I mean, we still play Downing ffs.
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Post by Rossoneri Ninja Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:58 am

ynwa wrote:
B-Mac MUFC wrote:to many average players makes for an average team. aside from gerrard and suarez i don't know who i would call world class on liverpool, reina used to be but his game has slipped...maybe johnson when hes on his best

stability at a management and ownership level also helps too

aside from van persie and rooney i don't know who i would call world class on manchester united............

aside from chiellini and vidal i don't know who i would call world class on juventus..........

It's a stupid argument. You DON'T NEEED world class players to have a good squad. You need chemistry. You need players to be on the same page. You can't put A+B together and expect them to be on the same mental wavelength as each other. The players are still adapting to Rodgers philosophy. This takes time to do. Not 7 months into Rodgers debut season. You also have to consider the fact that we're still trying to get rid of the stupid position we put ourselves under G+H AND under Commolli... I mean, we still play Downing ffs.

Not that I'm a Juve lover but I think you missed Pirlo, Buffon and Marchisio.

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Post by B-Mac Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:35 pm

ynwa wrote:
B-Mac MUFC wrote:to many average players makes for an average team. aside from gerrard and suarez i don't know who i would call world class on liverpool, reina used to be but his game has slipped...maybe johnson when hes on his best

stability at a management and ownership level also helps too

aside from van persie and rooney i don't know who i would call world class on manchester united............

aside from chiellini and vidal i don't know who i would call world class on juventus..........

It's a stupid argument. You DON'T NEEED world class players to have a good squad. You need chemistry. You need players to be on the same page. You can't put A+B together and expect them to be on the same mental wavelength as each other. The players are still adapting to Rodgers philosophy. This takes time to do. Not 7 months into Rodgers debut season. You also have to consider the fact that we're still trying to get rid of the stupid position we put ourselves under G+H AND under Commolli... I mean, we still play Downing ffs.

Vidic? Rafael has been best RB in PL this season, Evra has returned to his great form, Nani is just coming off injury, still world class on his game, even valencia, maybe not the best around but he does what he does and he does it bloody well.

and as posted above, Pirlo and Buffon just forget about those 2 guys even Vidal?

sorry but having some world class talent helps a lot. as terrible as it is to say look what Man City did....they were the biggest losers on the planet before they got money and started buying world class talent....there manager is a idiot and the team is full of clowns, but they still win because they are talented
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Post by Lex Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:38 pm

Please, please, please, please, please, please, please, PLEASE tell me you're not implying Rafael is one of the best RB at the moment rofl
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Post by B-Mac Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:39 pm

juveman17 wrote:Buy less English players like other PL teams. No need to stay back in the 20th century when there is much better talent overseas.

get real


manchester united win week in and week out with anywhere up to 5-7 english players in the starting 11 each week.

ridiculous statement and continues to show the english hate and underrated on this forum
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Post by B-Mac Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:40 pm

Lex wrote:Please, please, please, please, please, please, please, PLEASE tell me you're not implying Rafael is one of the best RB at the moment rofl

in the PL i said...that is the league he plays in no?
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Post by halamadrid2 Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:58 pm

I watched the game yesterday I noticed enrique losing the ball very easily be it a bad pass or just losing it while trying to get up. things like that opens up counter attacks for the opposition teams granted west brom until lukaku came in opted for long balls to long rather than pass it along the ground.

I think your issue is not having many bodies in the opposition box suarez likes to hover around it leaving the inside empty barring the occassional runs by henderson or any other midfielder of yours. as for your defence I think aggger has been a little poor with his marking on corners and altho your midfield do press your defence still sits back creating that little gap opening up some room for someone skilled to slip a ball through. agger should move up and press the moment the opposition AM gets the ball this would give them no time to think. it has proved a good tool for many teams and I even saw west brom do that yesterday why pool like to play with a flat backline is beyond me.

also no offence but both your fullbacks suck. I thought downing looked good dont know why he was subbed. all you are missing is that one body in the box whose name is not suarez. sturridge could be the one.

as for the result yesterday you were just unlucky it wss just one of those days you say to yourself its just not our day is it? I for one thought it was a travesty you hadn't scored in the first half like wtf how did the ball not want tk go in :brickwall:

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