Re: Fifa Ballon d'or

by Superstone Mariomintsch Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:06 pm

Thimmy wrote:
Myesyats wrote:If anyone out of that chelsea team deserves a shout it's Kante not Jorginho, obbviously

Agreed. He might go down in history as another one who was deserving of it, but never actually won it. Then again, I expected that to happen to Modric also, and he somehow won it during a season when I don't think he deserved it.

Yeah what I mean is what @Myesyats said. Jorginho is a meme choice, not that he's a meme player. It's not about the 0 assist thing. I know Jorginho is a regista, a deep lying playmaker, and good at what he's good at which is setting the tempo from deep with his passing.

However, as @Casciavit detaily explained, he didn't perform to that high standard across the last season. No matter how good he is in this tournament (he's very good) and in the CL final, but throughout the season he's not always this good. At some moments, Chelsea fans wanted Kovacic to play in his stead, he made some terrible mistakes, and generally wasn't as commanding as he is now. I think Modric in 2017/2018 though had some inconsistencies, but his iconic performances in that season and the world cup still had higher impact than what Jorginho does today.

by M99 Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:09 pm

I said it before, the shout outs mainly came from football twitter. And in my opinion its ridiculous. He was not Chelsea's best player, he's not Italy's best player. Put him in the top 10 sure. Anything more than that is ridiculous.

by Arquitecto Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:16 pm

Casciavit wrote:I like Jorginho as a player, but I can't accept anyone doing Ballon d'or prop for him.

The award isn't a participation award just because he was on two winning teams. No one was even talking about him after Chelsea's CL win. Did Chelsea fans even like him before the CL win? I remember them blasting Sarri for playing him as a 6 instead of Kante. He was constantly criticized for getting run over in midfield. Hell, some even considered him a meme midfielder.

Tuchel comes in and he switches to a 3-4-3 where Jorginho has more protection. Mancini has Italy playing a 3-4-3 in possession so Jorginho isn't exposed on the counter either.

He's great in the build-up, because he's quick on the ball, but there's nothing about him that stands out. I'm not even sure if I can call him a controller because he treats the ball like a hot potato. He doesn't provide any end product, he's physically limited, and he's not that great of a defender either. Good at reading the play, but he's just another #10 playing DM. He's the Walmart Busquets/Pirlo without their passing, press resistance, set pieces, and even defending.

Ballon d'or is an individual award and nothing about him individually suggests he should be nominated top 3, let alone win it. Chelsea and Italy still win their respective competitions if Kovacic/Locatelli had started in his place. He couldn't even score the winning penalty today. If England won would we be giving Mount Ballon d'or shouts? Saying Jorginho should win is like saying Rodri should win the Ballon d'or had City and Spain won the CL and Euros. At least when Modric won it you could make the claim he was the best midfielder in the world since 2014. Do people even consider Jorginho a top 5 DM? It just doesn't make sense to me.

The Ballon d'or shouldn't be about if there was a player on two winning teams. It should be given to the best individual player in a calendar year. The player who has had the biggest impact on his respective team and that can be measured through trophies and individual performances.

Sure Jorginho has the trophies, but I'm sorry he doesn't have the individual impact and no one is going to convince me otherwise. If you go from Kaka to Ronaldo to Messi to Modric and then to Jorginho then the award loses its value and it becomes a pity award. I really didn't think this needed an explanation TBH.

To clear it up I just found how you said it funny and so refreshingly direct, not the claim he should win.

I like that you put out this comprehensive post and all of them are sound.

But me saying Ive barely watched him this year under Tuchel automatically makes my point irrelevant.

In fact Im not a huge fan of Jorginho at all and likely you rate him above me.

I simply grew to really like him these Euros. His constant communication and calm to control the midfield is spectacular as his football IQ is just something else.

Of course him winning would be rather odd I simply just want it, more so.

Who do you feel should win though btw

by RealGunner Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:40 pm

There is no standout performer this year honestly.

by S Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:55 pm

RealGunner wrote:There is no standout performer this year honestly.

Hence why Messi will win it due to his popularity and winning a Covid Copa America after a zillion attempts

by Kaladin Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:59 pm

Yes, as it stands i think Messi is more of a prime candidate to win it - from UEFA's perspective

Keep in mind this is a popularity contest, him securing Copa America and the twitter reactions for him finally winning it have not gone unnoticed. In comparison to Italy winning it, with Gigio getting player of the tournament. I'd say Jorginho doesn't have a strong case.

The top 3 will be Messi, Jorginho and someone, with Messi winning it most likely

by RealGunner Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:01 pm

football is dead if Jorginho is even in the top 5. Give it to Kante

by El Gunner Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:35 pm

Kante definitely deserves a spot ahead of Jorginho Laughing

but yea, most likely a cake walk for Messi this year.

Spoiler:

by Arquitecto Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:51 pm

I don't disagree with a good point made by RG.

Messi I would not argue against but by no means a spectacular year by him in Barça.

Hope Lewandowski gets it.

by Myesyats Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:45 pm

Complain about balon dor being a popularity contest and then claim Joriginho should be 2nd :facepalm:

if that's your view then i prefer a popularity contest lol

by Warrior Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:56 pm

In my mind this trophy is Messi's to lose every year since 2009 or so. Because he is the best player in the world still to this day

In 2021 nobody surpass Messi, he finally won something with Argentina on top of that. Nobody talked of Jorginho 3 weeks ago and now worthy of ballon d'or ? players of his profile rarely if ever wins individual awards, their impact on a match is not obvious enough

by Blue Wed Jul 14, 2021 3:36 am

Jorginho should be ahead of Kante. He is the only player to be named one of the best performer at the Euros and UCL. He is indispensable for the best club and National team of 2021. Good of a claim as Modric when he won.

Kante had a underwhelming Euro, and wasn’t very good under Lampard. To his standard anyway. Anyway as a whole Jorginho had a better year. Objectively I would rank them that way for 2021.

Why should Messi win? He did nothing, winning a Copa America that nobody gives a damn about. The only game I watched was the final, where others out performed him.

Lewandowski, KDB, and Jorginho should be top 3.

by farfan Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:24 am

Low how Chelsea fans shifted the Ballon d'Or talk from Kante to Jorginho in a matter of weeks. Laughing

by Myesyats Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:38 am

Casciavit wrote:Saying Jorginho should win is like saying Rodri should win the Ballon d'or had City and Spain won the CL and Euros

This sums it up quite nicely....

by Kebab Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:33 am

Messi vs rest of the Europe

Euro

Copa America

by El Gunner Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:58 am

Blue wrote:Jorginho should be ahead of Kante. He is the only player to be named one of the best performer at the Euros and UCL. He is indispensable for the best club and National team of 2021. Good of a claim as Modric when he won.

Kante had a underwhelming Euro, and wasn’t very good under Lampard. To his standard anyway. Anyway as a whole Jorginho had a better year. Objectively I would rank them that way for 2021.

Why should Messi win? He did nothing, winning a Copa America that nobody gives a damn about. The only game I watched was the final, where others out performed him.

Lewandowski, KDB, and Jorginho should be top 3.

honestly Blue what happened in your life mate?
you used to be one of the better posters

by Thimmy Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:04 am

Kebab wrote:Messi vs rest of the Europe

Euro

Copa America

I collected a lot of data trying to disprove confirmation bias.
The results were exactly what I expected.

by Thimmy Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:07 am

I think Blue is right in pointing out that Jorginho is likely ahead of Kante, based on the award's previous criteria. I assume the majority of us recognize that Kante is the better player, but we've seen countless times that other qualities and performance- based results are prioritized ahead of talent in deciding who gets the nod for the final spots in the selection. Personally, I find it refreshing to see such a lack of bias from a GL poster.

by El Gunner Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:49 am

say something that is just outright wrong and dumb doesn't equal a lack of bias

by Thimmy Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:26 pm

What did he say that was "outright wrong and dumb"? He never said that Jorginho is a better player than Kante, which would've been a peculiar, perhaps strange opinion, at worst.

by El Gunner Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:51 pm

"Jorginho should be ahead of Kante"
"Good of a claim as Modric when he won."
"Why should Messi win? He did nothing, winning a Copa America that nobody gives a damn about. The only game I watched was the final, where others out performed him.

Lewandowski, KDB, and Jorginho should be top 3."

by danyjr Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:25 pm

I think if we compare the talent of Kante and Jorginho, Kante wins hands down. Jorginho is very much a one-trick pony. If used well he is a build-up supermo but he has many flaws (mainly his physique and defensive intelligence) that have been exposed many times. Kante on the other hand has everything Jorginho hasn't got, and isn't too bad compared to Jorginho's strong points either.

Though Ballon d'or should be about the talent, but contribution. Kante contributed more to Chelsea's season, especially that CL final where it was Kante's night. In France he was also their best performer along with Pogba, despite Les Bleus not managing to have a good tournament overall.

Comparatively Jorginho wasn't as present in Chelsea's CL run, and for Italy while one of the better performers I would argue that Verratti was even better than him in midfield. He missed his penalty in the final and I could name 4 other Italy players who were more instrumental in Azzurri's Euro title.

Also everyone gave a damn about Copa América when Messi didn't win it, suddenly somehow it is just a mickey mouse trophy Rolling Eyes

by Hapless_Hans Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:36 pm

Lewandowski should of course win it

The name Jorginho in connection to this might be the worst joke I've heard

by Blue Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:13 pm

I like both players; I feel I am being very objective regarding Kante and Jorginho. Both were nowhere their best under Lampard. Both were exceptional under Tuchel, slight advantage Kante because of his Final performance, Jorginho had numerous MOTM performances in the UCL. I don’t think Kante was very good in the Euros, mainly he benefits from playing next to a holding midfielder. Considering club and country I think Jorginho had a better year.

I do think Kante is the better player when judging both players from a career perspective even though they are different.

I think Jorginho is an essential player for the biggest winners in 2021 for club and country.

by Thimmy Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:27 pm

Excitedly waiting for someone who watches Chelsea 4 times a year to correct you drinking

by Arquitecto Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:30 pm

Blue wrote:I like both players; I feel I am being very objective regarding Kante and Jorginho. Both were nowhere their best under Lampard. Both were exceptional under Tuchel, slight advantage Kante because of his Final performance, Jorginho had numerous MOTM performances in the UCL. I don’t think Kante was very good in the Euros, mainly he benefits from playing next to a holding midfielder. Considering club and country I think Jorginho had a better year.

I do think Kante is the better player when judging both players from a career perspective even though they are different.

I think Jorginho is an essential player for the biggest winners in 2021 for club and country.

Look I only saw Chelsea about 2-5 times last year but I feel this is a shit opinion. Delete it.

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