Sergio Ramos vs Andrea Barzagli

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Post by futbol Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:23 pm

You are attributing the Di Natale goal to Pique. When in reality it was Ramos marking Di Natale, playing him onside the whole time and suddenly changing his mind, making a step forward trying to play him offside and failing, thus letting Di Natale run away from him into Pique's back.

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So there goes the credibility for the rest of your analysis on defenders.

Spain also never played "4-6-0". It was 4-2-4. Del Bosque himself considers only Alonso and Busquets as central midfielders and the front 4 as forwards in his system. Wink Being a midfielder on paper doesn't mean you have to act as a midfielder in practise. When Mascherano plays alongside Pique for Barcelona, he is playing the role of a centreback, not of a midfielder. Fabregas played like an out-and-out #9 in the final and not like a midfielder. Not even as a false 9. Furthermore Spain only had 52 % possession against Italy in the final. Italy tested the backline plenty of times. Pique and Ramos were simply better than Hummels who spinned like a battery-charged dildo after a simple Cassano turn.

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Post by Arquitecto Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:04 pm

futbol wrote:You are attributing the Di Natale goal to Pique. When in reality it was Ramos marking Di Natale, playing him onside the whole time and suddenly changing his mind, making a step forward trying to play him offside and failing, thus letting Di Natale run away from him into Pique's back.

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So there goes the credibility for the rest of your analysis on defenders.

Spain also never played "4-6-0". It was 4-2-4. Del Bosque himself considers only Alonso and Busquets as central midfielders and the front 4 as forwards in his system. Wink Being a midfielder on paper doesn't mean you have to act as a midfielder in practise. When Mascherano plays alongside Pique for Barcelona, he is playing the role of a centreback, not of a midfielder. Fabregas played like an out-and-out #9 in the final and not like a midfielder. Not even as a false 9. Furthermore Spain only had 52 % possession against Italy in the final. Italy tested the backline plenty of times. Pique and Ramos were simply better than Hummels who spinned like a battery-charged dildo after a simple Cassano turn.

While it was kind of you to provide picture evidence, Di Natale peeled past Pique through his run split by Pirlo. Yes, Ramos was guilty of playing him onside yet its even worse when the man who is supposed to be marking Di Natale is completely off position to not track him. Pique is responsible for tracking the forwards in which he did not do. Silly mistake from both CBs yet Pique certainly could have marked him for his run coming from metres away. A picture taken at a certain time does not do justice.

Yes Espana did play a 4-6-0 as a 4-2-4 is simply a 4-6-0 when expanded into through the midfield and attack similar to how a 4-3-1-2 compresses in defence into a diamond formation. Differences are minor yet the structural plan for the formation is for complete midfield control in order for the back line not to be compromised. Yes you are right that Fabregas sacrificed his original False 9 role earlier in the tournament to play a CF role yet the final isn't the main point.

Espana had 52% but you must count on where Italia actually controlled their half of possession as it mostly lay within their own half between the Cbs, the wingbacks (or fullbacks given Italia played a 4312 this time) and throughout the midfield. Italia did have 6 shots on target yet none of them really were any effect due to being mostly outside the box or just weak shots in attempts to pressure Casillas. I am definitely not discrediting Pique and Ramos here yet Italia were relatively poor from the get go and never really looked to bypass the midfield (due to their changed formation and fatigue). When they did, it was quickly nullified by the midfield and the CB backline. So in essence Pique and Ramos both had a superb performance, Pique in particular being the star of the back line.

Stats dictate a relatively even game yet this game in particular was one where the stats gave an illusion that Italia were actually better then they actually were, whereas they clearly weren't. Keep in mind where Italia actually held possession while Espana locked down possession in the final third and the finer half of the midfield. You cannot seriously say Italia tested the backline when there was little indication of danger.

I don't know where the topic has gone as I'm assuming its of Pique between us. My opinion stands that Pique certainly could have had a better Euros as throughout the tournament he displayed inconsistencies which potentially could have cost us. It was in sheer contrast to his magnificent performances in the World Cup in which him and Puyol were immaculate. I sympathized with Pique since Ramos wasn't exactly effective in being his partner along with being is poor form for Barcelona last year. As of now? Thankfully I am seeing a superior understanding between him and Ramos along with Pique being Barcelona's best individual in the backline this year.
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Post by juventus101 Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:22 pm

When a midfielder plays as a forward, they are told to act as a forward. But they do what they know. Which is, in Fabregas' case, to be an attacking midfielder. He played as a false 9 throughout the whole tournament,basically an attacking midfielder whichnis relied on to score. Key word there? MIDFIELDER. Spain played a hardcore possession based system, and still they barely won possession over an experimental Italy side.

And youre bashing Hummels, who was easily the bst defemder of thr tournament, and this is coming from an Italy/Juventus aupporter, though i live in Germany now and am also a fan of Koln. But thats besides the point. Cassano was extremely inconsistent in the Euros,actually all Italys forwarsds were. They had their best game against Germany, but couldnt put their czances away against Spain (first match), England, Croatia, etc. So it wasnt a matter of Hummels being bad and Pique/Ramos beinf good, because beforr the Italy game, Hummels didnt concede a single foul in the tournament or make a single error. It was down to Italys forwards beimg inconsistent.

Need i really mention the extenuating circumstances from the final? That Prandelli played an experimental lineup. That we lost oir best defender to injury just minutes into the game. That we were a man down for most of the second half. The final is a terrible reference for any argument.
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Post by juventus101 Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:25 pm

Btw, being the best individual of a backline consiating of an off form Alves, a mid 30's Puyol, Mascherano, Song, Adriano, and Alba (who is a great player but jot defensively) is not really something to be all that proud of.
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Post by jibers Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:19 am

Barzagli is the best CB in serie A, well he was last season. Chiellinis form was picking up tbf.
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Post by Kaladin Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:22 pm

Chiellini came back this season from injury and started off tremendously well, shame he's injured again
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Post by 7amood11 Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:54 pm

Chiellini has been immense so far this season. Best Juve defender right now IMO.

Regarding the Barzagli v Ramos debate, I'd choose Barzagli. I rate Ramos highly, but this season he's been error-prone and has committed defensive lapses.
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Post by zarola Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:50 pm

holy hell am I the only one in the universe that sees that Chiellini hasn't been good for the past 5 years? I fail to see what would make him better than any defender on barca, I fail to see what would make him start for Barca.

I haven't looked at Barzagli the same since his disaster at Euro 2012. I'm not very forgiving... I don't know what the hell his issue was there.

Ramos from what I read here is having a bad season, I don't know.. I don't watch La Liga, I'd say at his best he's a phenomenal player though, and Madrid themselves are going through quite a bit of issues at the moment and although it is no real excuse I wouldn't be surprised to see Ramos back in form.
Tough to choose between these two..
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Post by juventus101 Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:30 pm

The past 5 years? Chiellini only really broke out 5 years ago. He has been excellent every season, the problems is usually he was surrounded by shit defenders, so he would shine hut the Juve defense as a whole still flopped. This seaso he has been excellent again, and at this point i believe he is the best defemder in the world when healthy and on form. Barzagli is also class and in the top 5 in the world as well, maybe even Top 3. Probably reads the game and is smarter than any other defender though.
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Post by Ion Creanga Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:23 pm

zarola wrote:holy hell am I the only one in the universe that sees that Chiellini hasn't been good for the past 5 years? I fail to see what would make him better than any defender on barca, I fail to see what would make him start for Barca.

I haven't looked at Barzagli the same since his disaster at Euro 2012. I'm not very forgiving... I don't know what the hell his issue was there.

Ramos from what I read here is having a bad season, I don't know.. I don't watch La Liga, I'd say at his best he's a phenomenal player though, and Madrid themselves are going through quite a bit of issues at the moment and although it is no real excuse I wouldn't be surprised to see Ramos back in form.
Tough to choose between these two..
seriously?? I guess we were challenging for europa league this season without chiellini... he was our best defender in every important game in ucl this season
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Post by zarola Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:19 am

juventus101 wrote:The past 5 years? Chiellini only really broke out 5 years ago. He has been excellent every season, the problems is usually he was surrounded by shit defenders, so he would shine hut the Juve defense as a whole still flopped. This seaso he has been excellent again, and at this point i believe he is the best defemder in the world when healthy and on form. Barzagli is also class and in the top 5 in the world as well, maybe even Top 3. Probably reads the game and is smarter than any other defender though.
Sorry thought we were in 2013... probably 3-4 years. He was good at Euro 2008.
Barzagli outclassed Chiellini all last season. Chiellini was responsible for many of Juve's goals against last season.
Let's not talk about Juve though, because they've been strong as a defensive UNIT, so looking at the big picture one might be blinded. Let's transfer over to the national team.
I stress this, FOR >>>ITALY<<< even Ranocchia has outperformed Chiellini.
Chiellini lost my love in 2010, he was responsible for SOO many goals it was beyond ridiculous, and I don't want to hear the "he was beside a 36 year old Cannavaro" argument. I heard that before and then I said okay, let him prove me wrong at Euro 2012.... same crap again, screwed us over against Spain first game alongside Giaccherini, screwed us over again against Croatia, screwed us over AGAIN against Spain on the first goal in the final. HOW CAN YOU SAY THIS IS TOP CB QUALITY? Is the whole world blind or am I just insane?!
Barzagli > Chiellini
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Post by Luca Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:53 am

Zarola, chiellini didn't play the first game of the euro because of injury
Don't you remember de Rossi having to play cb?
Chiellini was not fit during the euro. He laboured through a couple performances but it really showed. And in the final he was responsible for a goal and then subbed out because of that injury.
He really wanted to play but ideally he shouldn't have. This season he has been juventus' best, especially in the champions league. Now, unfortunately he faces injury again.

As for him being responsible for many of juventus' goals last season. Not only is this not true but even if it were, all defenders are responsible for a goal every now and then and all of them have their blunders. This is the exact reason bonucci has been criticized so much during his juventus time. Now he's cut the mistakes down and has been praised (funny how that works).

Anyways, chiellini has been Italy's best defender comfortably for the past few seasons and that doesn't look like it will change in the future so long as he is healthy

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Post by Lupi Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:27 am

RealGunner wrote:
Marchisio is better than Busquets. Vidal is too.

Are you serious ?

i agree with that statement at least for Vidal part , still have my doubts about marchisio though
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Post by Casciavit Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:33 am

Epoto wrote:
RealGunner wrote:
Marchisio is better than Busquets. Vidal is too.

Are you serious ?

i agree with that statement at least for Vidal part , still have my doubts about marchisio though

Why would you guys even compare them Laughing
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Post by zarola Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:55 am

Luca wrote:Zarola, chiellini didn't play the first game of the euro because of injury
Don't you remember de Rossi having to play cb?
Chiellini was not fit during the euro. He laboured through a couple performances but it really showed. And in the final he was responsible for a goal and then subbed out because of that injury.
He really wanted to play but ideally he shouldn't have. This season he has been juventus' best, especially in the champions league. Now, unfortunately he faces injury again.

As for him being responsible for many of juventus' goals last season. Not only is this not true but even if it were, all defenders are responsible for a goal every now and then and all of them have their blunders. This is the exact reason bonucci has been criticized so much during his juventus time. Now he's cut the mistakes down and has been praised (funny how that works).

Anyways, chiellini has been Italy's best defender comfortably for the past few seasons and that doesn't look like it will change in the future so long as he is healthy

http://www.goal.com/en/match/71174/spain-vs-italy/player-ratings

Chiellini did play that first game. You have mistaken Barzagli and Chiellini. Barzagli was the one out injured, Chiellini and Giaccherini costed us that first goal. But De Rossi :bow:

I've been waiting and waiting for Chiellini to prove me wrong, but it hasn't happened. disappointment after disappointment, I think my upset is allowed. he's overhyped by the world, I may underhype him a little too much, if that is the case, I will accept it; however, I must be this way to counterbalance the ridiculous overhype this man receives. He is not the best Italian defender and he is not the best defender in Italy. He is amazing in glimpses but lapses in concentration far too often.

Is it possible that injury is a valid excuse and time and time again Chiellini has actually been fantastic just extremely unlucky in big game situations...? Well yes, but unlikely. I guess we'll see at Italy's next big competition or in latter stages of Champions League if Chiellini makes it back for that, hopefully I don't come back raging.
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Post by 7amood11 Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:07 am

zarola wrote:
Luca wrote:Zarola, chiellini didn't play the first game of the euro because of injury
Don't you remember de Rossi having to play cb?
Chiellini was not fit during the euro. He laboured through a couple performances but it really showed. And in the final he was responsible for a goal and then subbed out because of that injury.
He really wanted to play but ideally he shouldn't have. This season he has been juventus' best, especially in the champions league. Now, unfortunately he faces injury again.

As for him being responsible for many of juventus' goals last season. Not only is this not true but even if it were, all defenders are responsible for a goal every now and then and all of them have their blunders. This is the exact reason bonucci has been criticized so much during his juventus time. Now he's cut the mistakes down and has been praised (funny how that works).

Anyways, chiellini has been Italy's best defender comfortably for the past few seasons and that doesn't look like it will change in the future so long as he is healthy

http://www.goal.com/en/match/71174/spain-vs-italy/player-ratings

Chiellini did play that first game. You have mistaken Barzagli and Chiellini. Barzagli was the one out injured, Chiellini and Giaccherini costed us that first goal. But De Rossi :bow:

I've been waiting and waiting for Chiellini to prove me wrong, but it hasn't happened. disappointment after disappointment, I think my upset is allowed. he's overhyped by the world, I may underhype him a little too much, if that is the case, I will accept it; however, I must be this way to counterbalance the ridiculous overhype this man receives. He is not the best Italian defender and he is not the best defender in Italy. He is amazing in glimpses but lapses in concentration far too often.

Is it possible that injury is a valid excuse and time and time again Chiellini has actually been fantastic just extremely unlucky in big game situations...? Well yes, but unlikely. I guess we'll see at Italy's next big competition or in latter stages of Champions League if Chiellini makes it back for that, hopefully I don't come back raging.

Chiellini has been great this season. I don't know if you've been watching Juve this season but he hasn't made any mistakes so far this season as far as I know.

Can you show me the lapses of concentration from Chiellini? Excluding the Euros of course, he was harboring an injury for the majority of the tournament.
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Post by zarola Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:38 am

7amood11 wrote:
zarola wrote:
Luca wrote:Zarola, chiellini didn't play the first game of the euro because of injury
Don't you remember de Rossi having to play cb?
Chiellini was not fit during the euro. He laboured through a couple performances but it really showed. And in the final he was responsible for a goal and then subbed out because of that injury.
He really wanted to play but ideally he shouldn't have. This season he has been juventus' best, especially in the champions league. Now, unfortunately he faces injury again.

As for him being responsible for many of juventus' goals last season. Not only is this not true but even if it were, all defenders are responsible for a goal every now and then and all of them have their blunders. This is the exact reason bonucci has been criticized so much during his juventus time. Now he's cut the mistakes down and has been praised (funny how that works).

Anyways, chiellini has been Italy's best defender comfortably for the past few seasons and that doesn't look like it will change in the future so long as he is healthy

http://www.goal.com/en/match/71174/spain-vs-italy/player-ratings

Chiellini did play that first game. You have mistaken Barzagli and Chiellini. Barzagli was the one out injured, Chiellini and Giaccherini costed us that first goal. But De Rossi :bow:

I've been waiting and waiting for Chiellini to prove me wrong, but it hasn't happened. disappointment after disappointment, I think my upset is allowed. he's overhyped by the world, I may underhype him a little too much, if that is the case, I will accept it; however, I must be this way to counterbalance the ridiculous overhype this man receives. He is not the best Italian defender and he is not the best defender in Italy. He is amazing in glimpses but lapses in concentration far too often.

Is it possible that injury is a valid excuse and time and time again Chiellini has actually been fantastic just extremely unlucky in big game situations...? Well yes, but unlikely. I guess we'll see at Italy's next big competition or in latter stages of Champions League if Chiellini makes it back for that, hopefully I don't come back raging.

Chiellini has been great this season. I don't know if you've been watching Juve this season but he hasn't made any mistakes so far this season as far as I know.

Can you show me the lapses of concentration from Chiellini? Excluding the Euros of course, he was harboring an injury for the majority of the tournament.

I have not had time to watch Juve this season as much as I would've liked to. Last season though, I saw most of Juve's matches.

There was a post I had made a while back with every single goal-costing mistake with videos of Chiellini's errors for Juve last season. I don't remember how many there were, it wasn't over 10 goals though. Can't find the post. Some from LB (you will recall there was panic in the media saying he needed to be switched back to CB because he was costing you guys goals), and then he made just as many or more from the CB position.

He was outplayed by Barzagli last season, you can't deny that. Barzagli was Juve's best defender, and the only competitor to Thiago Silva for the defender of the season. So I don't understand this best defender in Italy business.

He was responsible for two of the Slovak goals though in 2010.
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Post by McLewis Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:43 am

This thread is not about Chiellini, Xavi, Pirlo, Busquets or Marchisio.

Please stay on topic.

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Post by Sushi Master Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:14 pm

Barzagli, because as stated he's a game reader and will nicely slot into most sides, plus can be a good defender in any league. Yeah, he's not as fast or as good attacking as Ramos, but that's not what I'm looking for when I choose my CBs.

Ramos has never entirely convinced me, Madrid fans to the contrary, that he's World Class or any where near it. A defender with that a shitty positioning is never going to be world class.
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Post by Kaladin Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:42 pm

Just to be clear i voted Ramos by mistake (damn keyboard) so thats 4 votes
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Post by Luca Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:28 pm

zarola wrote:
7amood11 wrote:
zarola wrote:

http://www.goal.com/en/match/71174/spain-vs-italy/player-ratings

Chiellini did play that first game. You have mistaken Barzagli and Chiellini. Barzagli was the one out injured, Chiellini and Giaccherini costed us that first goal. But De Rossi :bow:

I've been waiting and waiting for Chiellini to prove me wrong, but it hasn't happened. disappointment after disappointment, I think my upset is allowed. he's overhyped by the world, I may underhype him a little too much, if that is the case, I will accept it; however, I must be this way to counterbalance the ridiculous overhype this man receives. He is not the best Italian defender and he is not the best defender in Italy. He is amazing in glimpses but lapses in concentration far too often.

Is it possible that injury is a valid excuse and time and time again Chiellini has actually been fantastic just extremely unlucky in big game situations...? Well yes, but unlikely. I guess we'll see at Italy's next big competition or in latter stages of Champions League if Chiellini makes it back for that, hopefully I don't come back raging.

Chiellini has been great this season. I don't know if you've been watching Juve this season but he hasn't made any mistakes so far this season as far as I know.

Can you show me the lapses of concentration from Chiellini? Excluding the Euros of course, he was harboring an injury for the majority of the tournament.

I have not had time to watch Juve this season as much as I would've liked to. Last season though, I saw most of Juve's matches.

There was a post I had made a while back with every single goal-costing mistake with videos of Chiellini's errors for Juve last season. I don't remember how many there were, it wasn't over 10 goals though. Can't find the post. Some from LB (you will recall there was panic in the media saying he needed to be switched back to CB because he was costing you guys goals), and then he made just as many or more from the CB position.

He was outplayed by Barzagli last season, you can't deny that. Barzagli was Juve's best defender, and the only competitor to Thiago Silva for the defender of the season. So I don't understand this best defender in Italy business.

He was responsible for two of the Slovak goals though in 2010.

You're right. I realized the mistake I made later on lmao. Got barzagli and chiellini mixed up

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