Sergio Ramos vs Andrea Barzagli

by RealGunner Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:21 pm

Barzagli for me. I prefer intelligent defenders over physical ones

by the xcx Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:21 pm

I have no idea who Barzagli is but Id rather have him than ramos.

by Onyx Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:24 pm

RealGunner wrote:Barzagli for me. I prefer intelligent defenders over physical ones

Ramos is physical? hmm

by RealGunner Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:27 pm

Yohan Modric wrote:
RealGunner wrote:Barzagli for me. I prefer intelligent defenders over physical ones

Ramos is physical?

yea

by the xcx Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:27 pm

duhhhhhhhh...Its his physicality and incompetence that has cost us the league.

by McLewis Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:34 pm

The xcx wrote:I have no idea who Barzagli is but Id rather have him than ramos.

Anyways, on topic.....Barza all day.

Can read the play well, not afraid to put his body on the line and makes good decisions both with and without the ball. He's also got a much better disciplinary record than Ramos in that he's not the liability that the Spaniard can be at times, which makes him more reliable an option.

Just wish he scored more from set pieces, but it's something he can do without.

by juventus101 Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:00 pm

Barzagli all day. Ramos is better offensively but thats all he has over Barzagli.

by futbol Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:32 pm

So according to the Serie A fans of this forum:

Pirlo > Xavi
Barzagli > Ramos
Marchisio > Busquets
Buffon > Casillas

I'm not going to assume that anyone rates Arbeloa. And every Juventus defender is probably >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pique as well. So how the feck does Spain only concede 1 goal in the whole Euros and 0 goals in the knockout stages of 3 consecutive tournaments since Zidane retired with these scrubs? Laughing

Or is this not the same Barzagli who couldn't get into the first XI ahead of Arne Friedrich and Kjær in Wolfburg and got sold basically for free who is now suddenly world class a year later? Maybe it's a different Barzagli we're talking about here? Laughing

The xcx wrote:I have no idea who Barzagli is but Id rather have him than ramos.

Barcelona need a Puyol successor soon. You could send him over to the Catalans. I have a feeling Alba-Ramos-Pique would work quite nicely. But it's just a feeling. I have nothing to back this feeling up of course. Laughing

by Arquitecto Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:53 pm

futbol wrote:So according to the Serie A fans of this forum:

Pirlo > Xavi
Barzagli > Ramos
Marchisio > Busquets
Buffon > Casillas

I'm not going to assume that anyone rates Arbeloa. And every Juventus defender is probably >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pique as well. So how the feck does Spain only concede 1 goal in the whole Euros and 0 goals in the knockout stages of 3 consecutive tournaments since Zidane retired with these scrubs?

Or is this not the same Barzagli who couldn't get into the first XI ahead of Arne Friedrich and Kjær in Wolfburg and got sold basically for free who is now suddenly world class a year later? Maybe it's a different Barzagli we're talking about here?

The xcx wrote:I have no idea who Barzagli is but Id rather have him than ramos.

Barcelona need a Puyol successor soon. You could send him over to the Catalans. I have a feeling Alba-Ramos-Pique would work quite nicely. But it's just a feeling. I have nothing to back this feeling up of course.

Do you realize the same ad hominem logic that you've presented can be applied with the La Liga fans on this board? Its obvious you do a fantastic job on collectively generalizing the Serie A fans on this board which quite frankly, stinks of passive-aggressive bullshit.

And no Espana's CBs do not have anywhere near as much as you think to their defensive record given the amount of possession they held, how the midfield dominated opposition, along with having little to defend. Pique was absolutely abysmal in the Euros despite winning as his lack of understanding of the offside trap, partnership zonal marking or defending with the basics cost us nearly many times to the point where a loss was imminent. Poor logic once again.

Benched for Kjaer? I guess you forgot all the injuries Barzagli received along with having 78 apps in 3 years with Wolfsburg, starting every single game in their title winning year along with being the best Bundesliga CB of the year. Did I mention he was good enough to be on Italia's world cup winning Azzuri in Germany? Good riddance Laughing

OT: Trying to set my obvious Ramos bias aside I'd take Barzagli over him given that Barza simply is a superior CB in intelligence, reading, aerially and marking as Ramos for all his physical and improving qualities just doesn't match up to Barza. Ramos certainly is superior on the offensive yet we are talking about defensive ability. Barzagli for me.

by Valkyrja Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:00 pm

Better than Ramos in the air ? You must be kidding.

by futbol Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:00 pm

Ah, I see. The "possession" argument again. The main reason why Arsenal are famous for their great defensive record over the years. Because of their possession game. Laughing

by Arquitecto Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:06 pm

futbol wrote:Ah, I see. The "possession" argument again. The main reason why Arsenal are famous for their great defensive record over the years. Because of their possession game.

No its not that same argument. If you read it would mean that Pique was rarely tested and when he was, Ramos certainly looked a whole lot more comfortable than he did. By your logic Stephane Guivarc'h lead France to the 98' world cup after being their main number 9 Laughing

And Arsenal haven't been a pure possession team for over 3 years. Don't know what your on about.

likeastar wrote:Better than Ramos in the air ? You must be kidding.

Ramos is excellent on an aerial basis yet has shown to misjudge the timing of his jump quite a few times now and especially this season. I wouldn't argue against this though given Barzagli isn't known for his aerial ability either.

by juventus101 Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:35 pm

Pirlo vs Xavi and Buffon vs Casillas is preference. Serie A and Juve fans auch as myself will obviously chooae Pirlo and Buffon. But theres really nothing that separates the two. If anything, the only.thing that separates the two is long term consistency, where the italians trump the spaniards.

But Barzagli is better than Ramos. Marchisio is better than Busquets. Vidal is too. Chiellini is better than Pique, and.this season Bonucci and Pique are on par, as besides deflecting in achelseas first goal in our firat CL game back, Bonucci has been perfect otherwise.

Also, with the aerial argument, Ramos might have a slight edge over Barzagli, but Chiellini and Bonucci are both better than any Spanish defender in the air.

by RealGunner Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:37 pm

Marchisio is better than Busquets. Vidal is too.

Are you serious ?

by juventus101 Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:43 pm

Please explain to me what Busquets is better at. Besides diving.

by Pedram Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:46 pm

by futbol Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:48 pm

Arquitecto wrote:
futbol wrote:Ah, I see. The "possession" argument again. The main reason why Arsenal are famous for their great defensive record over the years. Because of their possession game.

No its not that same argument. If you read it would mean that Pique was rarely tested and when he was, Ramos certainly looked a whole lot more comfortable than he did. By your logic Stephane Guivarc'h lead France to the 98' world cup after being their main number 9

Please further elaborate how Spain manages to not concede. I want a more detailed analysis from you than "the backline isn't getting tested". Who is responsible that the backline isn't getting tested then? I feel this is going to become quite funny when you're going to try to explain such a phenomenon by deliberately trying to avoid giving credit to the individuals.

If the backline isn't tested then the likes of Busquets, Alonso and Xavi who are playing infront of them must be doing an absolutely outstanding and unequaled job. But I've just had a discussion with a Juventus fan here who says Pirlo > Xavi (and Xavi apparently sucked in the Euros until the final) and Marchisio > Busquets. Italy had De Rossi as well. And apparantely Chiellini and Barzagli > Pique and Ramos as I've learned now. So how did Italy concede 7 and Spain conceded 1 goal in the Euros?

Arsenal's avg. possession this year is 59 %. Highest number in the Premier League. According to the logic that teams which dominate possession are "protecting" their backlines, Arsenal should have a very good defensive record. They are monopolizing possession like no other team in their environment (EPL).

Your Guivarc'h comparison is way off the mark. France in 98 didn't score many goals. They struggled throughout the tournament upfront. 1-0 golden goal in the R16. Penalties against Italy in the quarters. 2 goals from Thuram in the quarters (his only goals in his whole national team career). And then 2 corner kick goals by Zidane in the finals. Please explain how the clean sheets which the Spanish backline is holding is compareable to Guivarc'h not scoring goals for France.

by juventus101 Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:53 pm

Spains backline does get tested. Not as often as Italys defense thoigh because Spain play a hardcore possession game with 6 midfielders l where they would rather make a backpass than a front pass for a 10% chance of that front pass getting interxepted. Thats why they dont get tested as much. Their 6 midfielders just hold onto the ball as long as they can, even if it gets to the point of being risiulous with ao many backpasses.

by Kaladin Tue Dec 25, 2012 8:54 pm

juventus101 wrote:Please explain to me what Busquets is better at. Besides diving.

Sergio Ramos vs Andrea Barzagli Snow-white-run-away

by S Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:05 pm

Ah i see we should judge Ramos' performances based on that one month tournament where he featured for the best NT in the world over the club season which involves 50 games or more Champions league included where its clearly shown that he's prone to defensive lapses,constantly making mistakes at the back costing crucial points for his team as well as having an awful disciplinary record.(inb4laligarefsareincompetent).

So in that respect ,Iniesta is the greatest player to ever live and Messi cant lace his boots.Fair enough then.

by Luca Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:07 pm

Very contrasting styles. Over the past season I would prefer barzagli as he's played his very best football in this time. Solid in the euro and fantastic with juventus

Have to say I love reading the Spain>all argument, it's twisted in so many ways to fit the author's claim in such a hilarious way sometimes

by Lupi Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:11 pm

i remember alex fergusen said something about Ferdinand when he started to decline that had to do with him coping to a new style of defending , Ramus does defending the first method which is using the pace , and barzagli positioning , i chose barzagli because i consider ramus to be better as a right back

by Arquitecto Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:12 pm

futbol wrote:
Arquitecto wrote:
futbol wrote:Ah, I see. The "possession" argument again. The main reason why Arsenal are famous for their great defensive record over the years. Because of their possession game.

No its not that same argument. If you read it would mean that Pique was rarely tested and when he was, Ramos certainly looked a whole lot more comfortable than he did. By your logic Stephane Guivarc'h lead France to the 98' world cup after being their main number 9

Please further elaborate how Spain manages to not concede. I want a more detailed analysis from you than "the backline isn't getting tested". Who is responsible that the backline isn't getting tested then? I feel this is going to become quite funny when you're going to try to explain such a phenomenon by deliberately trying to avoid giving credit to the individuals.

If the backline isn't tested then the likes of Busquets, Alonso and Xavi who are playing infront of them must be doing an absolutely outstanding and unequaled job. But I've just had a discussion with a Juventus fan here who says Pirlo > Xavi (and Xavi apparently sucked in the Euros until the final) and Marchisio > Busquets. Italy had De Rossi as well. And apparantely Chiellini and Barzagli > Pique and Ramos as I've learned now. So how did Italy concede 7 and Spain conceded 1 goal in the Euros?

Arsenal's avg. possession this year is 59 %. Highest number in the Premier League. According to the logic that teams which dominate possession are "protecting" their backlines, Arsenal should have a very good defensive record. They are monopolizing possession like no other team in their environment (EPL).

Your Guivarc'h comparison is way off the mark. France in 98 didn't score many goals. They struggled throughout the tournament upfront. 1-0 golden goal in the R16. Penalties against Italy in the quarters. 2 goals from Thuram in the quarters (his only goals in his whole national team career). And then 2 corner kick goals by Zidane in the finals. Please explain how the clean sheets which the Spanish backline is holding is compareable to Guivarc'h not scoring goals for France.

Please stop bringing Pirlo vs Xavi and all that old crap into this discussion. That does not involve me.

Backline not being tested means that Espana didn't exactly face a storm of attack vs them given most teams have learned to go on the counter vs them. Thankfully, Espana is so effective in keeping the ball and nullifying the counters that they rarely reach the CBs who are relatively unscathed. When Pique was tested, he failed hard. Which is why he was poor to keep Balotelli off mark in the group stage match, ripped open by a 34 year old Di Natale whom he was supposed to mark. What else? How Mandzukic gave him a run around in the final group stage game where it was a wonder how Croatia did not score vs us. Versus France, Ramos-Pique hardly had to even move given how poor France were and how dominant Espana were. Vs Portugal Pique again was exposed for poor positioning and forayed forward far too often as well as having Ronaldo expose him more than once in the 2nd half. That enough for you? Overall despite the win a poor Euros from him. The collective team and tactics of Espana are so effective in its quintessential unit it can allow for individual mistakes as that is the whole point of Creole football it is compressive defence. Which is also the whole point of a 4-6-0 in which the midfield cannot be easily bypassed and that worked tremendously to plan.

Arsenal are far from monopolizing defence. You obviously aren't counting which area they actually have possession in along with that most bottom teams go on the counter vs Arsenal just like Norwich, Stoke, Wigan etc have . Possession stats doesn't mean a thing as by that logic Milan who had the highest percentage of possession last year in the Serie A, would be called a possession team whereas their tactics and roles dictate that they are a counter-attacking team. Arsenal focuses on possession yet transcending into quick breaks and pressuring the back line of the opposition.

The analogy used for Guivarc'h is the same as yours given that you credit Pique for being responsible for the least amount of goals scored despite his shaky defensive performances, whereas Guivarc'h had the illusion of contributing to France's world cup despite being poor himself.

Two individuals part of a superb team who did not perform to expectations. I can give you many further examples of individuals who nearly cost their cup winning team.

by futbol Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:23 pm

You are attributing the Di Natale goal to Pique. When in reality it was Ramos marking Di Natale, playing him onside the whole time and suddenly changing his mind, making a step forward trying to play him offside and failing, thus letting Di Natale run away from him into Pique's back.

Sergio Ramos vs Andrea Barzagli 5je5q7n4

Sergio Ramos vs Andrea Barzagli 5je5q7n4

So there goes the credibility for the rest of your analysis on defenders.

Spain also never played "4-6-0". It was 4-2-4. Del Bosque himself considers only Alonso and Busquets as central midfielders and the front 4 as forwards in his system. Wink

Being a midfielder on paper doesn't mean you have to act as a midfielder in practise. When Mascherano plays alongside Pique for Barcelona, he is playing the role of a centreback, not of a midfielder. Fabregas played like an out-and-out #9 in the final and not like a midfielder. Not even as a false 9. Furthermore Spain only had 52 % possession against Italy in the final. Italy tested the backline plenty of times. Pique and Ramos were simply better than Hummels who spinned like a battery-charged dildo after a simple Cassano turn.

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