Forwards: Individual problem or a wider, perhaps tactical issue?

alexjanosik wrote:I think its due to a combination of reasons,most of which have already been mentioned.
Our attack being built around Messi now has meant that almost everything goes through him.
I think last season our forwards would have gotten more goals were it not for fortunate injuries.Pedro also lost form.
Another reason is that teams have caught onto how our wide forwards play ever since Messi moved into the false nine position.Messi drops deep,forwards make diagonal run between fullback and CB and Messi slips the ball through.
Teams have caught on and they have squeezed the space between the fullback and CB.There is virtually zero space to make a throughball between the two.Hence why we see less of that kind of run,throughball and goal.
Teams know that its less risky to afford us space out wide than in the center.
As a result we have had to adapt too.

this is actually where our team being built with nothing but midgets *bleep* shit up for us. If we had a Llorente (just using him as an example because he is great with headers), we could bring him in late as a sub, slot Messi out right, and then the defenders would...

A) start to protect the wing now because of Messi. This would give Llorente and the rest of the team space down the middle to make something work and create something

B) Teams wouldnt clog the middle because they wouldnt be able to afford to let crosses come in vs if Messi was our 9. Messi is short and teams dont fear he will put in the header, while if Llorente in the box, then teams would have to run out to defend the wingers out of the tall threat inside the box

I doubt Llorente or any tall quality forward would want to come to barca to only make 5-10 minute appearances all season.

The best we can do is find some old player like Klose who is looking for some end-of-career adventure.

The other thing with having a target man, means we will give up possession a lot (most crosses would be intercepted well) and would be more susceptible to counter-attacks with our high-line.

I was just using him as an example.

But when you think about it, thats pretty much what Bilbao is doing with him at the moment anyway lol. Use him off the bench. We could alway sign a player like him and start him every once in a while with Messi on the right. Our right isnt producing shite so it could really change the dynamic of our attack.

The Franchise wrote:I think one thing that stood out, at least to me, is how many more shots former strikers took in a season compared to Pedro, Alexis and other forwards. Its hardly surprising, but they are taking 100 shots a season more or less.

3 additional questions

1. Does all this mean Barca should sign strikers to play out wide?

2. Do you think this Barca will have 2 forwards (not including Messi) score more than 15 goals in a season again?

3. Will anyone other than Messi get 20 in a season?

Excellent thread and the opening post is brilliant. The detailed numbers tell the entire story.

Its a difficult problem because Messi is one of the best players of all time and has gotten completely used to playing through the center. The best of strikers also prefer playing through the center as playing out wide will not get them many goals. I am sure most here would remember how many times Henry complained in the media in the 2007-08 season about having to start so far away from goal. There is a strong belief that we didn't buy Aguero because we felt he wouldn't fit best in wide positions. Now the whole world wants Falcao and we have a very good chance of getting him but what will we do with him? If we play him in the center then will Messi want to change position and will he be as good in a different position? If we try to play Falcao wide then thats a terrible idea as I feel he wouldn't be 50% the player he is today. So whats left for us? Either buy mediocre forwards who would happily play wide. Or else play wingers and wide midfielders who have goals in them. In the near future it hardly makes any sense to go after a top class forward especially center forward.

Anyway here are my answers to your questions.

1. Hardly. At least not the very best of them.
2. Very unlikely
3. Very unlikely

That Dani Alves passback (vs. Valladolid) when he had the whole goal in front of him should answer the question to this thread.

danyjr wrote:That Dani Alves passback (vs. Valladolid) when he had the whole goal in front of him should answer the question to this thread.

agreed

Here is an article I wrote which touches on this issue and potential solutions. Would love to hear thoughts on these players.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1465237-transfer-talk-5-players-that-would-improve-barcas-attack

I enjoyed it Kizz. I disagree with 2 players and have reservations about a third.

Well, its not that I disagree..the article says players that would improve the attack. They would improve it, just im not so sure they are ideal.

The first two are Gotze and Aguero. Not flank players. Gotze does use the flanks very well, no question. However his off ball movement, its that of a midfielder...always coming towards it or into pockets. Not giving depth to the field.

Aguero has changed, before I used to think he could play on the flank but it would be awkward looking. Now, I am not even sure of that.

For some reason, in Manchester he has learnt not to dribble anymore. I rarely see him with the ball at his feet when he isnt in a shooting position. He has become a very central player. 2 games City tried him on the flank, both of them he was horrible in.

Again, both of these would still improve what we have but I have some doubts.

The third one was me and Alex's personal favourite at the time we didnt sign him. Luis Suarez.

Now I have doubts, but in a different way. Before I wondered if he would score the goals, last season it looked like the answer was no. This season he had changed that and the answer is yes.

However, he now plays the 9.5 position and to the extent that he is the center of Liverpool's world. He makes fantastic runs into the channels, he can dribble, both in 1 v 1 and in traffic from there. But he doesnt start on the flank and move in, he goes where the space dictates.

There are players who make runs for others, to open lanes, give time on the ball and there are players who make not runs, but float into spaces where they can get time on the ball., often those spaces created by the first type of player. Suarez is the latter when we might be better served with someone who is the first. Or at least, someone who enjoys doing the first equally.

I am sure he can do it, he did it for many years. However, what will it do to his game to be taken down a role? He has found something good, he is in his prime and playing his best football...turning him into a cog in the wheel, I am not sure what it would do to him right now.

Thanks Dani. Definitely fair calls.

Suarez's game has definitely changed, but I feel he could adapt again.

Personally my preference after Neymar is actually Marco Reus. I'm a big fan and I think he could fit the system. Very intelligent player, tactically flexible etc.

messixaviesta wrote:

The Franchise wrote:I think one thing that stood out, at least to me, is how many more shots former strikers took in a season compared to Pedro, Alexis and other forwards. Its hardly surprising, but they are taking 100 shots a season more or less.

3 additional questions

1. Does all this mean Barca should sign strikers to play out wide?

2. Do you think this Barca will have 2 forwards (not including Messi) score more than 15 goals in a season again?

3. Will anyone other than Messi get 20 in a season?

Excellent thread and the opening post is brilliant. The detailed numbers tell the entire story.

Its a difficult problem because Messi is one of the best players of all time and has gotten completely used to playing through the center. The best of strikers also prefer playing through the center as playing out wide will not get them many goals. I am sure most here would remember how many times Henry complained in the media in the 2007-08 season about having to start so far away from goal. There is a strong belief that we didn't buy Aguero because we felt he wouldn't fit best in wide positions. Now the whole world wants Falcao and we have a very good chance of getting him but what will we do with him? If we play him in the center then will Messi want to change position and will he be as good in a different position? If we try to play Falcao wide then thats a terrible idea as I feel he wouldn't be 50% the player he is today. So whats left for us? Either buy mediocre forwards who would happily play wide. Or else play wingers and wide midfielders who have goals in them. In the near future it hardly makes any sense to go after a top class forward especially center forward.

Anyway here are my answers to your questions.

1. Hardly. At least not the very best of them.
2. Very unlikely
3. Very unlikely

While I agree that Falcao would not be the absolute best way to solve our issue (mostly because of the price) I don't see why Messi would not do well if he played on the right more regularly and we had a Falcao-ish player in the center. Not as a false 9 though. It's a shame that there just isn't an Eto'o type player on the market ATM (someone with pace, who can head the ball no problem and has just a blistering ability to finish) but if we had to choose between a different type of scoring threat in the form of a Llorente or a Falcao, it's no question. He's the most Eto'o-esque striker I can think of at the moment.

But with his pricetag it's very unlikely. He's almost certain to go elsewhere. But for now, this issue can at least be attempted to be solved in a simple way which is to play Messi on the right. More than once on this forum I've seen people say that Messi will never and should never again play on the right. Why? He's Messi ffs. He's done it before, he can no doubt do it again and like it's already been said, the center is of the pitch is clogged because the opposition figured it out.

While the form of the rest of our forwards is pretty much mediocre as far as finishing I dont think that it would hurt to mix it up a bit and have Leo play on the right like he used to, maybe get a quality number 9 down the road in the summer. I'm all for holding out and waiting on even just one of Pedro, Villa, Alexis, Tello, etc. to regain their form which can no doubt happen soon but hopefully it happens before it costs us a big match in the CL.

If Messi were to get just one somewhat lengthy injury around CL (Lets PRAY not) with the team in its current state, we're gonna struggle hard.

Nope, Messi on the right is done. Im sorry I have to disagree with you.

The center of the pitch will be too crowded, the opponants left back will push tight in and clog it up because Messi obviously wont stay on the right. Also, whats the point of a 9? Messi gets into goalscoring positions already arriving in the box. The 9 would give depth to the field should we wish to use it in counter attacks, but the negatives far outweigh the positives.

Also, defensively. When the leftback goes charging up the pitch, who is going to track him down? Sure as hell Messi wont.

The Franchise wrote:Nope, Messi on the right is done. Im sorry I have to disagree with you.

The center of the pitch will be too crowded, the opponants left back will push tight in and clog it up because Messi obviously wont stay on the right. Also, whats the point of a 9? Messi gets into goalscoring positions already arriving in the box. The 9 would give depth to the field should we wish to use it in counter attacks, but the negatives far outweigh the positives.

Also, defensively. When the leftback goes charging up the pitch, who is going to track him down? Sure as hell Messi wont.

A 9 could add more of an aerial threat as well as a secondary threat in general. And Messi wouldn't have to stay on the right the entire match but just like he can get into scoring positions into the box, he can also do wonders to create goals and if he were on the right then surely the middle of the pitch wouldn't be AS clogged, especially if he were on the right for some of the game, shifted into the center, and just kept the opponents guessing rather than stubbornly trying up the middle nonstop (however I'm just referring to the celtic match though). As far as tracking back I agree it could be a vulnerability but given Pedro or Alexis' form, it wouldn't kill us to try against a smaller Liga team whose fullbacks aren't too offensive. They work hard all the time, don't get me wrong. And they also have created this season but they still leave you wanting more.

But either way, this hypothetical 9 can't be played by anyone on the team ATM.

But why would we want an aerial threat?

Why would we want to cross for a 50-50 ball and lose possession?

Celtic match? He went on the right there too, it failed just as it did in the center.

And I disagree it wont cause us problems vs weaker teams. They dont have to be outstanding players to do damage. If the leftback is always free, how are we going to press them? The pass will be simple and our press completely broken with ease.

A #9 would be useful not because of the aerial threat per se but because a hypothetical aerial threat upfront would worry the defenders more and drag them out of position to cut out crosses which would open up space in the middle. Right now defenders don't have to worry about Alves and Alba putting in crosses AT ALL. They can keep a narrow shape and ignore the wide players completely because they know that the chances of Pedro or Alexis scoring goals is neglectable and Alves and Alba putting in crosses for Messi to score as well. But this is a very specific issue which only occurs against the likes of Chelsea or Celtic with huge physical players parking around their own box and it's really not worth getting a Falcao or even Llorente for maybe 2 or 3 such games in a season. Pique venturing forward should do the trick as well (unfortunately injured against Chelsea and both Celtic games).

I agree however that Messi should play out wide against parked busses with Fabregas doing the false 9 job and wrestling with the CBs. When you look at the goal Messi scored against Celtic, he did it sneaking in from out wide while the whole Celtic defense was busy marking other players in the middle.

Putting Messi on the right after he just scored like 90 goals in a calendar year from the middle?

I'm not always a fan of the "if it aint broke don't fix it" philosophy- in fact, I despise it (although I understand the intentions), but this is clearly a case where we should just...you know, keep the best player probably in history in the middle instead pushing him out wide. That was over a while ago...

At the risk of sounding a bit crass, why is this being debated?

Right now defenders don't have to worry about Alves and Alba putting in crosses AT ALL.

Well yeah, we don't really have the aerial ability...but that doesn't mean much, have we ever really needed it? If they leave Alves and Alba open that's fine with me, they can continue to go out wide all day and put in those passes across the box that so often work out and we've seen Alba do several times this season.

The Franchise wrote:But why would we want an aerial threat?

Why would we want to cross for a 50-50 ball and lose possession?

Celtic match? He went on the right there too, it failed just as it did in the center.

Well he did score in the Celtic match and like futbol said he came in from out wide. Unfortunately it was too little too late. I just saw him getting stuck when he was in the center and eventually frustrated. However, it was just one match so I have to conclude that that's how impressive we've been this season. We really dont have a big problem at all when that's the one truly negative moment of the season that most of us come back to and even with that he still got on the scoresheet.

But it's true, if aint broke, dont fix it. I agree. Let's just hope that Messi doesn't get sidelined though. I dont want to say we have a dependency on Messi but the stats aren't really showing otherwise, especially this season.

And I disagree it wont cause us problems vs weaker teams. They dont have to be outstanding players to do damage. If the leftback is always free, how are we going to press them? The pass will be simple and our press completely broken with ease.

You have a point but thats already our problem anyways. What's the main way that we concede? It's the counter is it not? They dont have to be outstanding players. They dont even have to LBs but thats already a bit of a flaw for us as it is.

When you have a player like Messi on your team I challenge any team to not become dependent on him to perform. And he does. Every time.

CBarca wrote:When you have a player like Messi on your team I challenge any team to not become dependent on him to perform. And he does. Every time.

Again, I fully agree. He's the best, period. What I mean though is that in the current state of the team (attacking form, finishing, etc.) if he were to get sidelined for some crucial games in Europe, how well do you think we would do? I dont wanna jynx it since he never gets injured so its likely not to happen anyways. But how would you adjust the team to beat a tough opponent far into the CL without him? This is unrelated to whether he should play on the right.. But given the number of non Messi goals in the last few years I just don't know who can step up to be that real secondary threat (not aerial, just in general).

futbol wrote:I agree however that Messi should play out wide against parked busses with Fabregas doing the false 9 job and wrestling with the CBs. When you look at the goal Messi scored against Celtic, he did it sneaking in from out wide while the whole Celtic defense was busy marking other players in the middle.

I agree with this 100%. I think Messi should only sway to the right when the parking of the bus gets out of hand with Cex going forward as the 9. Messi going out wide means the bus/defense will have to open up to gaurd him since he is such a huge goal threat nomatter where he is. This should open the bus up enough for Cex to get room to score. Or maybe if Villa if he is playing out on the left during said match. After we have the lead though we should go back to regular formation.

futbol wrote:A #9 would be useful not because of the aerial threat per se but because a hypothetical aerial threat upfront would worry the defenders more and drag them out of position to cut out crosses which would open up space in the middle. Right now defenders don't have to worry about Alves and Alba putting in crosses AT ALL. They can keep a narrow shape and ignore the wide players completely because they know that the chances of Pedro or Alexis scoring goals is neglectable and Alves and Alba putting in crosses for Messi to score as well. But this is a very specific issue which only occurs against the likes of Chelsea or Celtic with huge physical players parking around their own box and it's really not worth getting a Falcao or even Llorente for maybe 2 or 3 such games in a season. Pique venturing forward should do the trick as well (unfortunately injured against Chelsea and both Celtic games).

Highlighted is exactly what I've been saying for ages. Football is about being unpredictable and making your opponents guess. With no (hypothetical) aerial threat up front, Barcelona have been proved easier to defend against as the time has passed by.

futbol wrote:I agree however that Messi should play out wide against parked busses with Fabregas doing the false 9 job and wrestling with the CBs. When you look at the goal Messi scored against Celtic, he did it sneaking in from out wide while the whole Celtic defense was busy marking other players in the middle.

I prefer Alexis in the middle. His more physical presence, ability to make fantastic turns and okay link up play (for one-twos in the middle) makes him more viable in my opinion. Besides, he makes very good runs behind the defence.

If easier to defend against means we're still banging in 2-4 goals each game then I don't care about being easy to defend against.

Numbers don't support anyone's views here...

Having an aerial threat doesnt mean teams will come out to stop crosses. Thats false.

If your the opponant. What worries you more.

Someone scoring from a cross or Messi dribbling in the middle?

It will always be Messi.

I don't know where else to ask this but do you guys think that we should of maybe purchased Van Persie in the summer (2012) in exchange for Villa and maybe some money
Just randomly came to me, and maybe I am a little biased with this because I wish to see another dutchmen in our team but we could of gotten him for cheap seeing as Arsenal would of preferred him to go to another league rather then ManU

Nope. For me, RVP is a penalty box player now. Perhaps not exclusively, but mostly. I dont think he has the adaptability to play wider, whenever I seen him asked to do it he hasnt looked good. Though they have been for Holland so its a little unfair.

None the less, No, I think RVP is fantastic but he wouldnt do what he is doing now for Man Utd for us, im fairly confident of that.

If there is an 9 type player which I have remote intrest in, its Cavani, because I think he actually has the ability to move wider and still be effective.

The Franchise wrote:I enjoyed it Kizz. I disagree with 2 players and have reservations about a third.

Well, its not that I disagree..the article says players that would improve the attack. They would improve it, just im not so sure they are ideal.

The first two are Gotze and Aguero. Not flank players. Gotze does use the flanks very well, no question. However his off ball movement, its that of a midfielder...always coming towards it or into pockets. Not giving depth to the field.

Aguero has changed, before I used to think he could play on the flank but it would be awkward looking. Now, I am not even sure of that.

For some reason, in Manchester he has learnt not to dribble anymore. I rarely see him with the ball at his feet when he isnt in a shooting position. He has become a very central player. 2 games City tried him on the flank, both of them he was horrible in.

Again, both of these would still improve what we have but I have some doubts.

The third one was me and Alex's personal favourite at the time we didnt sign him. Luis Suarez.

Now I have doubts, but in a different way. Before I wondered if he would score the goals, last season it looked like the answer was no. This season he had changed that and the answer is yes.

However, he now plays the 9.5 position and to the extent that he is the center of Liverpool's world. He makes fantastic runs into the channels, he can dribble, both in 1 v 1 and in traffic from there. But he doesnt start on the flank and move in, he goes where the space dictates.

There are players who make runs for others, to open lanes, give time on the ball and there are players who make not runs, but float into spaces where they can get time on the ball., often those spaces created by the first type of player. Suarez is the latter when we might be better served with someone who is the first. Or at least, someone who enjoys doing the first equally.

I am sure he can do it, he did it for many years. However, what will it do to his game to be taken down a role? He has found something good, he is in his prime and playing his best football...turning him into a cog in the wheel, I am not sure what it would do to him right now.

Dont see why Suarez should be a problem for the reasons you mention especially when you dont make reservations about Neymar.
I have watched very little of Neymar but I dont think he is the sort of player who makes runs for others and opens lanes.So if it isnt a problem with Neymar then why should it be a problem with Suarez.
I also dont agree when you say that we would be better served with someone who makes space for others by making runs for 2 reasons.
First one is that with Suarez on the wing automatically there will be more space in the center.Right now teams clog up the center to try and stop Messi.With Suarez on the wing,teams cant afford to do that.So the RB will definitely guard him and if need be one of the wingers or midfielders.If they dont and still insist on clogging the middle to block Messi,Suarez will rip them to pieces from out wide.Now teams know that they dont have to worry since we have Pedro and Alexis out wide.
Secondly we need another crack in the forward line.When Messi isnt producing magic,especially in big games,we need someone else who can step up in the forward line.And Suarez is that guy.
On Gotze,you are right that his movements are more of a midfielder but he has goals in him as he has shown this season.He is also versatile. Besides he is an elite talent.If he becomes available and shows an interest,then we should snap him up cause he is that good a talent.
On Reus,I dont like him all that much.I dont think he is all that talented and would offer no improvement at all to our forward line.
My preferences from kizz's list in order are
1) Suarez
2) Gotze
3) Neymar
4) Aguero
5) Reus

Well Neymar plays on the left wing Alex, Saurez doesnt.

Like I said, he could probably go back to playing there, but he is playing the best football of his life right now through the middle and scoring goals, through the middle. I wouldnt guess he would replicate this on the left.

Neymar, if he is going to be good, would be good on the left or not at all.

Neymar makes runs to open lanes? No, but there is still a difference. Suarez finds space in between the lines or runs channels to drag centerbacks out of positions.

Neymar is with the ball at his feet or running into space towards the flank. The problem is we are comparing two players playing very different roles.

On Suarez occupying the rightback. Do you really think we would be getting the best out of him by doing that? I dont think we will be.