Forwards: Individual problem or a wider, perhaps tactical issue?

La Liga goals only



Pep Year 1:

Etoo* - 30 goals in 34 starts, 2 sub apperances . 67 shots on target from 155. 4 assists

Henry - 19 goals in 25 starts, 5 subs. 63 shots on target from 100 . 8 assists

Bojan - 2 goals in 6 starts. 17 subs. 14 shots on target in 33. 4 assists

Hleb - 0 goals in 11 starts, 2 subs. 3 shots on target from 6. 3 assists

Total non Messi goals: 51


Pep Year 2:

Ibrahimovic* - 16 goals in 23 starts, 6 subs. 44 shots on target from 100. 7 assists

Pedro - 12 goals in 22 starts ,12 subs. 20 shots on target from 38. 3 assists

Henry - 4 goals in 15 starts, 6 subs. 20 shots on target in 36. 2 assists

Jeffren - 2 goals in 6 starts, 6 subs. 3 shots on target in 5. 0 assists.

Bojan - 8 goals in 11 starts, 12 subs. 14 shots on target in 31. 3 assists.

Non Messi goals : 42


Pep year 3:

Villa - 18 goals in 32 starts, 32 subs 57 shots on target in 133. 5 assists.

Pedro - 13 goals in 24 starts , 9 subs. 33 shots on target in 60. 7 assists

Bojan - 6 goals in 9 starts, 18 subs. 17 shots on target in 31. 2 assists

Afellay - 1 goal in 7 starts, 9 subs. 5 shots on target in 16 . 0 assists

Jeffren - 1 goal in 4 starts, 4 sub. 6 shots on target in 12 . 1 assists

Non Messi goals : 29



Pep year 4:

Pedro : 5 goals in 20 starts, 9 subs. 22 shots on target in 40. 5 assists

Villa : 5 goals in 8 starts, 7 subs. 15 shots on target in 35. 1 assist

Alexis : 12 goals in 20 starts, 5 subs. 26 shots on target from 46 . 5 assists

Tello : 3 goals in 3 starts, 12 subs. 11 shots on target from 20. 0 assists

Cuenca : 1 goal in 11 games, 5 subs. 4 shots on target from 14. 2 assists.

Non Messi goals : 26



Tito year 1


Pedro - 1 goal in 12 starts, 3 subs. 12 shots on target in 22. 5 assists

Alexis - 0 goals in 5 starts, 5 subs. 5 shots on target in 7. 3 assists.

Villa - 5 goals in 6 starts, 5 subs. 7 shots on target in 9. 1 assist.

Tello - 2 goals in 3 starts, 2 subs. 5 shots on target in 8. 2 assists

Non Messi goals : 8







*Nearly all games he played as a 9, not a wide forward




Well as you can see, its getting worse year on year.

Whats your take? Individuals? Something bigger?

1) Messi getting better and better means more is likely to go through him.

2) Going from Henry and Eto`o to out of form Sanchez/Pedro or Villa coming back from a broken leg is an obvious drop in quality.

I think it has to do with the fact that the forwards we have now are less selfish than Henry and Eto'o, and I don't mean that as a deterrent. Henry and Eto'o played their whole careers predominantly in the center and made careers out of goal-scoring. All this while Messi was great, but he wasn't the Messi he is now. Eto'o and Henry knew that Messi could finish like the best, but they also trusted themselves to do it. Villa is the only one in the team right now with that kind of confidence, and he's perpetually injured.

Last season we were injury plagued and played with Cuenca and Tello for a significant amount of games. You put a canterano next to Messi and it's only natural that if he has a pass available to him he will pass rather than shoot. Alexis had a decent return imo for a first season, he was never a goalscorer.

Yea, I agree with everything Bear-Felix said. Our quality in players has dipped and the offense is now organized to flow down the middle. Also there were more Messi goals because he played out wide and wasnt the main reciever of the passes up front like when we had Eto'o and Ibra

It would be interesting to see what would happen if Villa were moved to the 9 role and Messi back to the right flank like he started off. We might see the scoring tally for other forwards go up

Actually looking at those stats, Tello and Villa have great goal scoring ratio vs games played. Pedro and Alexis are the ones stinking up the place and thats really where the difference is this year vs others

I think one thing that stood out, at least to me, is how many more shots former strikers took in a season compared to Pedro, Alexis and other forwards. Its hardly surprising, but they are taking 100 shots a season more or less.

3 additional questions

1. Does all this mean Barca should sign strikers to play out wide?

2. Do you think this Barca will have 2 forwards (not including Messi) score more than 15 goals in a season again?

3. Will anyone other than Messi get 20 in a season?

Cex had 15 goals and 20 assists last year. Fact he plays up the middle means he might have a better chance of hitting the 20 goal mark than our wingers.

2 things to point out.

1. Our formation has our wingers out wider than ever. Before they were in a more forward attacking width. Now they are literally standing on lines with the main focus on forcing the defenders to come for them so the middle opens up and Messi manages to score. This is a big reason why they dont hit the high goal mark. The focus of our wingers went from being scorers to being part of a system that helps open up the center for our Messi.

2. As some one already pointed out, our current players are not natural scoring machines ala Henry and Eto'o, Ibra. They all have a "I am here to help Messi" type of attitude. Even Villa, he is a natural goal scorer but he is not a selfish guy and arrived at our club accepting he would play second fiddle to Messi.

As I mentioned earlier, I would very interested to see what would happen to our offense and our forwards numbers if we were to move Messi back to the right wing and rotated Villa as our main striker, with Tello on the left wing.

Pep Year 2:

Ibrahimovic* - 16 goals in 23 starts, 6 subs. 44 shots on target from 100. 7 assists

Pedro - 12 goals in 22 starts ,12 subs. 20 shots on target from 38. 3 assists

Henry - 4 goals in 15 starts, 6 subs. 20 shots on target in 36. 2 assists

Jeffren - 2 goals in 6 starts, 6 subs. 3 shots on target in 5. 0 assists.

Bojan - 8 goals in 11 starts, 12 subs. 14 shots on target in 31. 3 assists.

Non Messi goals : 42


Pep year 3:

Villa - 18 goals in 32 starts, 32 subs 57 shots on target in 133. 5 assists.

Pedro - 13 goals in 24 starts , 9 subs. 33 shots on target in 60. 7 assists

Bojan - 6 goals in 9 starts, 18 subs. 17 shots on target in 31. 2 assists

Afellay - 1 goal in 7 starts, 9 subs. 5 shots on target in 16 . 0 assists

Jeffren - 1 goal in 4 starts, 4 sub. 6 shots on target in 12 . 1 assists

Non Messi goals : 29

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Another thing that stands out. Between these two years is when Messi became a false 9. Notice the massive non Messi goals and everyones numbers drop. The offense starting to flow to a focal point of him at that point. Before when he was a winger, the offense's flow was different and every one seemed to be getting more shots off at good scoring opportunites maybe? that's another theory

Well Franchise, I have a question for you.

The title says "Individual problem or a tactical issue"

You seem to have made it clear that this is a problem- be it individual or tactical. My question is, is this problem purposely created by Tito? It seems to me that now more than ever our offense is based upon Messi- an obvious observation. Is it possible that this season Tito has instructed our wingers to make less runs, and look more to stay wide and look for the square ball to Messi? Alba making overlapping runs on the left and consistently putting it into the box looking for Messi pops into my mind. Pedro's increase in assists and decrease in goals also is an interesting point. He's building the system even more around Messi than it has been before- almost like he's supposed to score the majority of our goals.

Year after year our players are looking for Messi more- and that's obvious, that's how Barcelona works now. But is it a problem? And is it one that Tito see's?

He seems content with having Messi do most of the scoring for Barcelona. I don't know if he sees it as a problem.

I however, do. Do you catch my drift, Dani?

Now other than that, I think there have been some good explanations in here. One obvious one that I will point out that doesn't really need much explanation, but is a part of it when you take into account this season: shite finishing. Our wide players, Villa aside, don't have their shooting boots on.

Thats was actually my next question, is this actually a problem

I think the issue we have is what if Messi gets injured or gets fatigued and goes through a bad stretch at the end of the season (remember last year when we played the Clasico with the Chelsea semi's in the same few weeks?). We need to have a clear second threat. Even the Celtic game is a good example of this. They hunker down on him and the middle and refuse to go out wide to chase the wingers and we are in shit. All this because we have 1 big weapon and to top it off we have a team full of midgets. So if they can afford to allow crosses to come if they have tall defenders. Think I am just rambling on now lol

IF we were to get Neymar, the question to be seen is if we would end up being a pass first to Messi guy and continue our flow of balls being for him first...or if he will go the Ibra route and start to not like that he isnt getting the same team attention at goal he did at his old team

Villa is the only player with a goalscoring instinct in the squad (except Messi). But he's being forced out of the team because the first thing he does is to look for goal and not to look for Messi (like Eto'o, Henry, Ibra ...). The team is built completely around Messi like never before. If Barcelona played with 2 other goalscorers on the wings, the goals would be distributed properly and Messi wouldn't hit 90+ goals in a year. It would be rather Messi 60 and the other 2 forwards sharing another 30+.

This "system" will be a costly mistake for Barcelona in the CL when competent teams will take Messi out of the game (like Atletico did) and other Barcelona players won't be able to contribute. Because Iniesta playing on left wing is not going to score regularly, neither will Pedro turn it on all of a sudden and Fabregas blows hot and cold infront of goal. People called Chelsea lucky last season. I call bullshit. Busquets, Alexis and Fabregas missing chances is pretty much normal. They aren't goalscorers in the first place. Tactical mistake if you create a system where midfielders get at the end of goalscoring chances and not competent goalscorers.

futbol wrote:Villa is the only player with a goalscoring instinct in the squad (except Messi). But he's being forced out of the team because the first thing he does is to look for goal and not to look for Messi (like Eto'o, Henry, Ibra ...). The team is built completely around Messi like never before. If Barcelona played with 2 other goalscorers on the wings, the goals would be distributed properly and Messi wouldn't hit 90+ goals in a year. It would be rather Messi 60 and the other 2 forwards sharing another 30+.

This "system" will be a costly mistake for Barcelona in the CL when competent teams will take Messi out of the game (like Atletico did) and other Barcelona players won't be able to contribute. Because Iniesta playing on left wing is not going to score regularly, neither will Pedro turn it on all of a sudden and Fabregas blows hot and cold infront of goal. People called Chelsea lucky last season. I call bullshit. Busquets, Alexis and Fabregas missing chances is pretty much normal. They aren't goalscorers in the first place. Tactical mistake if you create a system where midfielders get at the end of goalscoring chances and not competent goalscorers.

LOL. You are one delusional guy. Do you even watch Barca? Do you know how many teams press well against Barca in first 30min and then they die in the later stages and can't do a shit about Messi just like Atelti could not. You could pick up Celtic game more for that then Atleti. Are you an Atleti fan or just a Falcao bandwagoner?

OT - Building a team around the best payer, and potentially best player in the history of the game is not wrong. It is actually stupid not to IMO. But, there should be a plan B, when teams clog the middle and render Messi ineffective. I am no expert, but i think moving Messi to the right and having Vila go back to center could do wonders in such cases. At least two defenders would go for Messi there, so the middle gets unclogged. So change roles Messi with Vila. Another thing i do not see happening lately, which i saw in the beginning is the 3-3-1-3 which seamed to brake the stubborn defenses. Perhaps at that time ti was worth taking a risk as we did not have real CB's anyway, and now it would mean taking of one of the better defenders.

eelir wrote:

futbol wrote:Villa is the only player with a goalscoring instinct in the squad (except Messi). But he's being forced out of the team because the first thing he does is to look for goal and not to look for Messi (like Eto'o, Henry, Ibra ...). The team is built completely around Messi like never before. If Barcelona played with 2 other goalscorers on the wings, the goals would be distributed properly and Messi wouldn't hit 90+ goals in a year. It would be rather Messi 60 and the other 2 forwards sharing another 30+.

This "system" will be a costly mistake for Barcelona in the CL when competent teams will take Messi out of the game (like Atletico did) and other Barcelona players won't be able to contribute. Because Iniesta playing on left wing is not going to score regularly, neither will Pedro turn it on all of a sudden and Fabregas blows hot and cold infront of goal. People called Chelsea lucky last season. I call bullshit. Busquets, Alexis and Fabregas missing chances is pretty much normal. They aren't goalscorers in the first place. Tactical mistake if you create a system where midfielders get at the end of goalscoring chances and not competent goalscorers.

LOL. You are one delusional guy. Do you even watch Barca? Do you know how many teams press well against Barca in first 30min and then they die in the later stages and can't do a shit about Messi just like Atelti could not. You could pick up Celtic game more for that then Atleti. Are you an Atleti fan or just a Falcao bandwagoner?

OT - Building a team around the best payer, and potentially best player in the history of the game is not wrong. It is actually stupid not to IMO. But, there should be a plan B, when teams clog the middle and render Messi ineffective. I am no expert, but i think moving Messi to the right and having Vila go back to center could do wonders in such cases. At least two defenders would go for Messi there, so the middle gets unclogged. So change roles Messi with Vila. Another thing i do not see happening lately, which i saw in the beginning is the 3-3-1-3 which seamed to brake the stubborn defenses. Perhaps at that time ti was worth taking a risk as we did not have real CB's anyway, and now it would mean taking of one of the better defenders.

I've seen Messi move to the RW position so much more this season then any other since he started being a false nine to be honest, maybe not for the whole game but in periods of time he'll stay there for 5-15 minutes and rotate when nothing works for him which seems to be a small step into a plan B

Pep year 3 – non messi goals are 39 not 29.
Other than that, I see it as a personality issue. From our FWs right now, only Villa seems to have the thirst to score. Not the ability, the desire. The others are fine to facilitate Messi’s job.
Which actually is fine as long as Messi keeps at it. Results show that much.
Although, I’d love some pluralism in our attacking line

A bit of both.

The tactics are built to get the best out of the team and as it stands , shaping them in a way so as to ensure everything goes through Messi is more functional than shaping them in a way so as to get others more involved.

In that sense a personnel problem engenders a tactical issue (if you see it as one)

A better forward would bring more balance as everyone would be more willing to involve a more productive player.

As to the question if it is a problem at all...to me it is but I have a preference for balance and I think balance could improve the team. But problems are relative. You're winning, you're scoring goals, your attacking play is still dynamic and fluid...so even if you did consider it a problem it would be a minor one.

@Villa is out the team because he dont pass to Messi. The level of cluelessness...

He is out the team, because he broke his leg...you know, the type of injury players often never reach the level they were at before.

Isnt it common sense that he isnt playing 2-3 games a week 90 minutes at a time?

Shame you opened with that in your post, it made me not want to read the rest.

billy_gr wrote:Pep year 3 – non messi goals are 39 not 29.

Thank you. Let us call that a typo and not horrible maths.

Cesc should be included as a forward in the last season, he played most games predominantly in a forward position (or at least, not as a midfielder, so forward by process of elimination) which would definitely alter the numbers against the "every year it gets worse" trend.

This season I agree he has been more midfielder.

Well I dont know, if we include Cesc, then we better include Gudjohnson in Pep year 1.

I really wanted to concentrate on the left and right forwards and how either their role has changed, they arent playing good enough or how much both.

I think its due to a combination of reasons,most of which have already been mentioned.
Our attack being built around Messi now has meant that almost everything goes through him.
I think last season our forwards would have gotten more goals were it not for fortunate injuries.Pedro also lost form.
Another reason is that teams have caught onto how our wide forwards play ever since Messi moved into the false nine position.Messi drops deep,forwards make diagonal run between fullback and CB and Messi slips the ball through.
Teams have caught on and they have squeezed the space between the fullback and CB.There is virtually zero space to make a throughball between the two.Hence why we see less of that kind of run,throughball and goal.
Teams know that its less risky to afford us space out wide than in the center.
As a result we have had to adapt too.Our wide forwards now stay wider than they used to inorder to bring the fullback out wide.Pedro especially is almost playing like a traditional right winger this season.Stays wide,gets out on the outside and crosses.If the wide forwards stay wide,then it will naturally mean less goals.
Another thing that needs to be put into context is Messi's efficiency.Taking that into account,the discrepancy in the numbers between his goals and that of the other forwards would not seem so insane.
Every single year he has gotten more and more lethal as a goalscorer to the point now that he is as lethal and as good a finisher as any the game has seen.This season he has a goal every 3.4 shots in La Liga which is just mental.I am assuming that includes freekicks too,which if we leave out makes the figure even more mental.Take the last game for example.Messi didnt have a great game but scored 2 goals from 2 chances.The point is that the numbers discrepancy can be partly also explained by the fact that he is a far better finisher than anyone on our squad.Just to illustrate the point he has scored more league goals than all of CR,Higuain and Benzema combined this season.Shows how lethal he is.
So the numbers discrepancy is not as insane as it may seem.Messi is just a freak.But our forwards do need to start scoring.Villa needs to be started more and Alexis needs to hit the bench.
To get Pedro scoring I think it would help immensely by starting Alves.
Adriano,good as he has been doesnt provide an overlapping threat.Nowhere close to the extent Alves does.Neither does Montoya.
As a result Pedro has to stay wide to try and pull the RB out wide.
With Alves there,he can overlap and Pedro can play closer to goal.I am sure it will help Pedro score a few more goals.

The Franchise wrote:

billy_gr wrote:Pep year 3 – non messi goals are 39 not 29.

Thank you. Let us call that a typo and not horrible maths.

ok I forgive you for this one time...

Pedro is just a good player and nothing more, he is no worldclass.football is not basketball, Pedro has found himself several times in dangerous areas but he could not score.Messi scores so many goals because he is the best the game has ever seen, most of his goals are as a result of his individual brilliance eventhough the team play puts him in those dangerous areas.

Pedro in his first seasons had a lethal instict and he was a hard worker.
That's all we wanted really. The team is packed with "magicians" with the likes of messi, iniesta etc. Pedro's hard work combined with his eye for the goal was all we needed. now we only have his hard work

alexjanosik wrote:I think its due to a combination of reasons,most of which have already been mentioned.
Our attack being built around Messi now has meant that almost everything goes through him.
I think last season our forwards would have gotten more goals were it not for fortunate injuries.Pedro also lost form.
Another reason is that teams have caught onto how our wide forwards play ever since Messi moved into the false nine position.Messi drops deep,forwards make diagonal run between fullback and CB and Messi slips the ball through.
Teams have caught on and they have squeezed the space between the fullback and CB.There is virtually zero space to make a throughball between the two.Hence why we see less of that kind of run,throughball and goal.
Teams know that its less risky to afford us space out wide than in the center.
As a result we have had to adapt too.

this is actually where our team being built with nothing but midgets *bleep* shit up for us. If we had a Llorente (just using him as an example because he is great with headers), we could bring him in late as a sub, slot Messi out right, and then the defenders would...

A) start to protect the wing now because of Messi. This would give Llorente and the rest of the team space down the middle to make something work and create something

B) Teams wouldnt clog the middle because they wouldnt be able to afford to let crosses come in vs if Messi was our 9. Messi is short and teams dont fear he will put in the header, while if Llorente in the box, then teams would have to run out to defend the wingers out of the tall threat inside the box