Battle of the coaches.

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Post by Cassius Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:57 pm

So i was just thinking, i dont know if it honestly makes a difference but are coaches who had a great past PLAYING the sport better then the coaches who were quite unknown or maybe didnt play much at all whilst they were younger?

I see 3 groups,: Coaches who were great players and great coaches (Capello, Conte, Guadiola, Cryuff ect)

Coaches who didnt have big names or didnt play for big clubs but had a knack for coaching (Mou, Fergie, Strama Mazzarri, Wenger ect.. ant think of more right now, maybe some of you guys can.)

And lastly coaches who still live of thier names from thier playing days (Maradonna, Van Basten Laudrup ect..) obviosly these guys can still get better but they dont seem to have anything special about them coaching wise imo)

So do you guys see anything about this? do you think a better playing career makes a better manager? is say yes personally but 2 of the greatest managers ever in Fergie and Mou have had not very illustrious playing careers which kinda makes it a wee bit harder to come to a conclusive answer.

Your opinions will be warmly welcomed eco smile
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Post by Die Borussen Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:07 am

well talent of coaching and talent of playing the footy are two seperate things

i mean physical privileges, agility, speed all play a major role in a player's overall quality
but mean nothing in coaching where intelligence, charisma and stuff take place

so id say no unless a player actually was good cause he was smart and understanded the footy on the pitch in a unique way which eventually had him specializing it in tactics and coaching related stuff
which again can fit in a bad player who cant express it cause he is inferior physically

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Post by baresi Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:12 am

"You don't have to be a horse to become a jockey"..... one of the greatest coaches of all time.


Conte and Strama are relatively new and have shown little to nothing to be named among great coaches. Juve deservingly won the league with him but there are many "buts and ifs" in that achievement, till now haven't seen him win a single european match. His rotation system, he might be more of a motivator than a coach. Only time can tell.


Ancelotti deserves a mention.

And many players that played under Sacchi, Dutch trio, Donadoni, Ancelotti. 5 coaches and one assistant coach (Tasotti) all played for Sacchi.
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Post by futbol Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:12 am

I find it hard to buy into the "one of the greatest coaches EVA!!1" thing with Mourinho. Winning 1 league title in 3 years with the most expensive squad ever assembled, winning the Premiership twice with the most expensive squad ever assembled in England and fluking a CL win with Inter hardly makes him that. Especially considering the way his teams play (the 2010 CL final was the most boring game that has even been played).

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Post by Cassius Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:13 am

good post. you are right in what you are saying.

I just think a great player that knows the game fairly well (with some exceptions) will be better than someone who has studied the game but hasnt really played that much if at all. although this cannot be proved.

A lot of it involves the person in question too i suppose. maradonna and pele, great players but i wouldnt let them near my team if i owned one as they are lunatics.
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Post by Die Borussen Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:15 am

futbol wrote:I find it hard to buy into the "one of the greatest coaches EVA!!1" thing with Mourinho. Winning 1 league title in 3 years with the most expensive squad ever assembled, winning the Premiership twice with the most expensive squad ever assembled in England and fluking a CL win with Inter hardly makes him that. Especially considering the way his teams play (the 2010 CL final was the most boring game that has even been played).
you are a cule aren't ya?

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Post by baresi Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:19 am

futbol wrote:I find it hard to buy into the "one of the greatest coaches EVA!!1" thing with Mourinho. Winning 1 league title in 3 years with the most expensive squad ever assembled, winning the Premiership twice with the most expensive squad ever assembled in England and fluking a CL win with Inter hardly makes him that. Especially considering the way his teams play (the 2010 CL final was the most boring game that has even been played).


This argument is just as silly as "messi cant play without Xavinesta" or "Messi is not a great player till he wins the WC"
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Post by Cassius Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:20 am

baresi wrote:"You don't have to be a horse to become a jockey"..... one of the greatest coaches of all time.


Conte and Strama are relatively new and have shown little to nothing to be named among great coaches. Juve deservingly won the league with him but there are many "buts and ifs" in that achievement, till now haven't seen him win a single european match. His rotation system, he might be more of a motivator than a coach. Only time can tell.


Ancelotti deserves a mention.

And many players that played under Sacchi, Dutch trio, Donadoni, Ancelotti. 5 coaches and one assistant coach (Tasotti) all played for Sacchi.
I agree, i was hesitent to mention strama and conte but what i see from stama i like. i get the feeling he knows how to coach a team, which is something good considering he hadnt coached a senior team before inter if im correct? so far he looks to be the deal.
Conte on the otherhand i already consider to be one of the greats. maybe not world wide but in italy definatly. this is just the start for him in my opinion, he took a 7th place juve team (dont know why im telling you, its not like you havent trolled me about it before eco smile I kid) to a great unbeaten streak and a scudetto, coppa final, super coppa strophy with a not so great side to say the least. His mentality is what makes him great, but like you say, we shall see in the future.

Good shout at ancelotti, brilliant player and coach. I dont know why a lot of people dont rate him as a coach anymore scratch

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Post by baresi Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:28 am

Cassius_Case wrote:
baresi wrote:"You don't have to be a horse to become a jockey"..... one of the greatest coaches of all time.


Conte and Strama are relatively new and have shown little to nothing to be named among great coaches. Juve deservingly won the league with him but there are many "buts and ifs" in that achievement, till now haven't seen him win a single european match. His rotation system, he might be more of a motivator than a coach. Only time can tell.


Ancelotti deserves a mention.

And many players that played under Sacchi, Dutch trio, Donadoni, Ancelotti. 5 coaches and one assistant coach (Tasotti) all played for Sacchi.
I agree, i was hesitent to mention strama and conte but what i see from stama i like. i get the feeling he knows how to coach a team, which is something good considering he hadnt coached a senior team before inter if im correct? so far he looks to be the deal.
Conte on the otherhand i already consider to be one of the greats. maybe not world wide but in italy definatly. this is just the start for him in my opinion, he took a 7th place juve team (dont know why im telling you, its not like you havent trolled me about it before eco smile I kid) to a great unbeaten streak and a scudetto, coppa final, super coppa strophy with a not so great side to say the least. His mentality is what makes him great, but like you say, we shall see in the future.

Good shout at ancelotti, brilliant player and coach. I dont know why a lot of people dont rate him as a coach anymore scratch

I always rated him highly despite general believe.

Anyway lets try to differentiate between a coach and a tactician, if we are talking coaching then I wont rate Ancelotti up there, but as a tactician he is one of the best out there.

Now Conte might be a great coach but I dont see him as a tactician. Sacchi was a great coach and tactician, SAF as well. Mourinho imo is more of a tactician than a coach. Capello is both, Lippi I consider him as a bad coach but great tactician.

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Post by Luca Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:31 am

futbol wrote:I find it hard to buy into the "one of the greatest coaches EVA!!1" thing with Mourinho. Winning 1 league title in 3 years with the most expensive squad ever assembled, winning the Premiership twice with the most expensive squad ever assembled in England and fluking a CL win with Inter hardly makes him that. Especially considering the way his teams play (the 2010 CL final was the most boring game that has even been played).

And what about his time with Porto? Or are you intentionally discrediting him?

baresi wrote:"You don't have to be a horse to become a jockey"..... one of the greatest coaches of all time.


Conte and Strama are relatively new and have shown little to nothing to be named among great coaches. Juve deservingly won the league with him but there are many "buts and ifs" in that achievement, till now haven't seen him win a single european match. His rotation system, he might be more of a motivator than a coach. Only time can tell.


Ancelotti deserves a mention.

And many players that played under Sacchi, Dutch trio, Donadoni, Ancelotti. 5 coaches and one assistant coach (Tasotti) all played for Sacchi.

I disagree with what you're saying about Conte only being a motivator, this was one of my fears when he took the position but he has shown just the opposite

For example, when he came to Juventus there was immense talk about his super offensive 4-4-2 (4-2-4) formation, and how Pirlo wouldn't fit
Then Vidal was signed, and in preseason I saw Vidal play in just about every position that Conte could find for him, he played as a SS, he played as a winger and it made me question Conte's flexibility. Even Marchisio was still being used as a wide midfielder at the beginning of Conte's time

He made the change to the 4-3-3 to accommodate a midfield of Marchisio-Pirlo-Vidal. He then made the change to the 3-5-2, to strengthen the backline and actually get something out of the wingbacks, as Chiellini was splitting time between leftback and centerback

Not to mention the attractive brand of football that he has created for this Juventus. Lots of pressing, lots of chances being created, shots from outside the area. They can be a really fun team to watch at the moment.

I do agree though that it's way too early to place Conte among Guardiola or Capello, he just has too much to prove. He is comfortably ahead of Strama though

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Post by Cassius Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:52 am

Luca wrote:
futbol wrote:I find it hard to buy into the "one of the greatest coaches EVA!!1" thing with Mourinho. Winning 1 league title in 3 years with the most expensive squad ever assembled, winning the Premiership twice with the most expensive squad ever assembled in England and fluking a CL win with Inter hardly makes him that. Especially considering the way his teams play (the 2010 CL final was the most boring game that has even been played).

And what about his time with Porto? Or are you intentionally discrediting him?

baresi wrote:"You don't have to be a horse to become a jockey"..... one of the greatest coaches of all time.


Conte and Strama are relatively new and have shown little to nothing to be named among great coaches. Juve deservingly won the league with him but there are many "buts and ifs" in that achievement, till now haven't seen him win a single european match. His rotation system, he might be more of a motivator than a coach. Only time can tell.


Ancelotti deserves a mention.

And many players that played under Sacchi, Dutch trio, Donadoni, Ancelotti. 5 coaches and one assistant coach (Tasotti) all played for Sacchi.

I disagree with what you're saying about Conte only being a motivator, this was one of my fears when he took the position but he has shown just the opposite

For example, when he came to Juventus there was immense talk about his super offensive 4-4-2 (4-2-4) formation, and how Pirlo wouldn't fit
Then Vidal was signed, and in preseason I saw Vidal play in just about every position that Conte could find for him, he played as a SS, he played as a winger and it made me question Conte's flexibility. Even Marchisio was still being used as a wide midfielder at the beginning of Conte's time

He made the change to the 4-3-3 to accommodate a midfield of Marchisio-Pirlo-Vidal. He then made the change to the 3-5-2, to strengthen the backline and actually get something out of the wingbacks, as Chiellini was splitting time between leftback and centerback

Not to mention the attractive brand of football that he has created for this Juventus. Lots of pressing, lots of chances being created, shots from outside the area. They can be a really fun team to watch at the moment.

I do agree though that it's way too early to place Conte among Guardiola or Capello, he just has too much to prove. He is comfortably ahead of Strama though

Kudo's for saving me 10 minuits to write the same thing. i must admit i was afriad of the exact same thing.

another example you missed Luca was signing Asamoah to be a LB/LM hybrid which is still very risky considering what he was at udinese. great tactical vision from conte imo. fixed our main problem over the past several years within a few months, as in the wingbacks.
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Post by Luca Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:17 am

Good point about Asamoah, he's fit seamlessly.
Although he has all the characteristics which would also make him a strong vice-Vidal in the midfield

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Post by Cassius Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:21 am

Luca wrote:Good point about Asamoah, he's fit seamlessly.
Although he has all the characteristics which would also make him a strong vice-Vidal in the midfield
Id love to see him get more playing time in the midfield if im honest.

On your point though, I dont think he quite has the same bite vidal does, infact i think Marchisio has more tanacity than Asa. Not to say he isnt gritty, i think he's more cunning then a tackler though. I dont see why he couldnt be tried there though, he may surprise me.
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Post by S Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:55 am

Not only what Luca and Cassius said but Conte has also realized that teams are just looking to marking Pirlo out of the game by pressing him as he tends to struggle when pressed,and to address that problem ,Bonucci has become the man now to get the ball out of defense,i have noticed this especially in some CL games this season and if you look at his distribution this season its been magnificent to say the least.Hence why he also uses Marrone at CB i think.

So he's not only a great man manager and motivator but i think he is proving to be an astute tactician as well.
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Post by baresi Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:07 pm

ttt
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Post by baresi Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:08 pm

Conte showing his real abilities, Allegri>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Conte.
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Post by Cassius Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:43 pm

I know im kinda 'biting here' but Conte's Juve have now twice in sucessive seasons knocked out Allegri's Milan out of the Coppa. Not to mention beating him to the scudetto last season.

Conte's a good coach, i think the whole juve team are slowly realsing that not every season will be like that last magical unbeaten season. Think ill judge him properly next season to see if he was a one season wonder or if hes actually capable of building AND maintaining a winning side.
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Post by 7amood11 Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:21 am

baresi wrote:till now haven't seen him win a single european match.

That's because he hasn't even been in a European match yet. But he was responsible for all the tactics and line-ups during the 6 group games Juve had played, so he actually has won European matches.

baresi wrote: His rotation system, he might be more of a motivator than a coach. Only time can tell.

So far, this couldn't be farther from the truth. Yes, he's made some mistakes, but Conte is still a very good tactician. He always makes crucial substitutions that have won Juve many points, for example.
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Post by baresi Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:16 am

7amood11 wrote:
baresi wrote:till now haven't seen him win a single european match.

That's because he hasn't even been in a European match yet. But he was responsible for all the tactics and line-ups during the 6 group games Juve had played, so he actually has won European matches.

baresi wrote: His rotation system, he might be more of a motivator than a coach. Only time can tell.

So far, this couldn't be farther from the truth. Yes, he's made some mistakes, but Conte is still a very good tactician. He always makes crucial substitutions that have won Juve many points, for example.
Subs? Thats how you rate a coach? Mind you I never said he is a potato sack.
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Post by 7amood11 Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:08 am

Read the last two words of my post. It's an example, I never said I rate a coach based on subs alone, that would be ridiculous.
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