Johan Cruyff ?

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Post by Don Carlo Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:42 am

I think Cruyff is a top 3 all time great footballer alongside Pele & Maradona, I might be in the minority but I think he was every bit as good as those guys, they all had different styles & did cetain things better than each other but I don`t see the South Americans as being on a different level or decisively better than Cruyff, I personally find it impossible to split them into a 1-2-3 type order but those are my top 3 players of all time.

Am I overrating Cruyff here or do Maradona & Pele get a little bit overrated at times in these ATG debates ?

Thoughts ?
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Post by The Franchise Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:08 am

Best European ever, top 3 player all time for me.

If he won a WC, Pele and Maradona would have a third wheel becaue ability and performance wise, he wasnt inferior at all.



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Post by the xcx Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:29 am

Overlooked by the media, atleast thats what some guy told me down in the pub. Top 5 european player imo.
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Post by Don Carlo Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:44 am

The Franchise wrote:Best European ever, top 3 player all time for me.

If he won a WC, Pele and Maradona would have a third wheel becaue ability and performance wise, he wasnt inferior at all.




That`s the way I see it... but I don`t think that`s fair on Cruyff, he was the outstanding player in his only world cup (74) & didn`t play bad in the final at all, his team just lost in that game, that`s all... if West Germany had beat Argentina in 86 it shouldn`t take away in any way how good Maradona was because 1 player cannot win a game on his own, its only one game albeit a very important one.

Also, I think being the first to win the European player of the year 3 times (a record that still stands & has only been equalled by Platini, Van Basten & Messi to this date), winning 3 European cups as the best player in one of the best teams ever (Ajax 71-73), & has time at Barca, Ajax later on in the early 80s & Feyenoord should surely more than make up for ONE game against West Germany - the best German side of all time it just so happens.

Does anyone really think that Maradona`s Argentina would have beaten West Germany of 1974 ?... possible but not probable.

Does anyone really think that Cruyff`s Holland would not have beaten the West German team of 1986 ?.... possible but not probable.

Cruyff ranks right there with Diego & Pele for me, I dont hold that final in 74 against him in the slightest, especially when all of the above is taken on board, cheers Cool
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Post by Don Carlo Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:47 am

Nameless wrote:Overlooked by the media, atleast thats what some guy told me down in the pub. Top 5 european player imo.

I`d say he is the best European player ever, I can`t name 4 all time WORLD players that I`d have over him never mind Europeans.
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Post by DuringTheWar Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:36 am

Im not exactly his biggest fan, i dont think he is automatically on best european ever status, there are some other players that would have something to say about that imo. The thing with these lists, is they arent only about who are the best players, but also who were the most inspirational to a global audience, ie playing well in world cups ect. Cruyff dissapointed a lot of people spoiling the 78 world cup by not playing
I dont know if he is as good as pele, my view of pele is from only world cup games and a couple santos games so i wont critique him. As good as diego? i dont think so, diego was a better individualist , better in every technical aspect of the game. In fact, i know many dutch have diego as their hero (such as van persie and van basten) instead of cruyff because they prefer artistic players in holland
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Post by DuringTheWar Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:50 am

Don Carlo wrote:
Does anyone really think that Maradona`s Argentina would have beaten West Germany of 1974 ?... possible but not probable.

Does anyone really think that Cruyff`s Holland would not have beaten the West German team of 1986 ?.... possible but not probable.

Its true that the german team cruyff played against was better than that diego played against, its also true that cruyfs holland was better than diegos argentina.
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Post by The Franchise Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:33 am

Maradona better in every technical aspect of the game...

Johan Cruyff ?  Tumblr_m1po0gjoEn1rqfhi2o1_250

And which European is on his level?
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Post by DuringTheWar Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:24 pm

Not saying he isnt the best european, he may well be amd there are a lot of people who think he is, but there are guys like best, puskas, and beckenbauer that would challenge him. I know there was a big section of people back then that thought best was better for example.

Genuinly interested in what you think he was better in technically? shooting? passing? ball control? trapping? dribbling? heading? i think diego has him beat on those categories
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Post by Don Carlo Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:30 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Not saying he isnt the best european, he may well be amd there are a lot of people who think he is, but there are guys like best, puskas, and beckenbauer that would challenge him. I know there was a big section of people back then that thought best was better for example.

Genuinly interested in what you think he was better in technically? shooting? passing? ball control? trapping? dribbling? heading? i think diego has him beat on those categories

Firstly, I don`t think any player in history has better instant ball control than Diego Maradona, he was like an alien in that department... Cruyff also has ridiculously good control so its not like its a weak point for him.

Both were outstanding passers of the ball, both were amongst the best dribblers, hard to split them there, its very minimal either way.

Cruyff was a better goalscorer, Maradona was much better at freekicks, neither were outstanding with the head but still very competent.

Both were great crossers of the ball, Cruyff with both feet though, advantage Cruyff here.

Cruyff was a better tackler & overall more complete which isn`t the be all in this discussion to be fair because both were attacking playmakers more than anything (IMO)

Both could pull a rabbit out of a hat in an instant because both are magicians on the field & both were fabulous team players that brought out the best in their team mates.

As I said, I can`t split them... they are possibly the 2 best players I`ve ever seen.

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Post by Don Carlo Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:50 pm

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:Im not exactly his biggest fan, i dont think he is automatically on best european ever status, there are some other players that would have something to say about that imo. The thing with these lists, is they arent only about who are the best players, but also who were the most inspirational to a global audience, ie playing well in world cups ect. Cruyff dissapointed a lot of people spoiling the 78 world cup by not playing
I dont know if he is as good as pele, my view of pele is from only world cup games and a couple santos games so i wont critique him. As good as diego? i dont think so, diego was a better individualist , better in every technical aspect of the game. In fact, i know many dutch have diego as their hero (such as van persie and van basten) instead of cruyff because they prefer artistic players in holland

Cruyff didn`t play in 1978 for personal reasons, I`m sure people felt more disappointed in what Diego DID do in the 1982 & 94 world cups than what Cruyff DIDN`T do. Johan was easily the outstanding player in the only world cup he played in in 1974... `inspirational to a global audience` means nothing because the majority of that audience are casual fans that go with the media opinion.

Nope, that would be impossible when comparing to Cruyff.

Van Basten might well have admired Diego but he also said he regards Cruyff as the best player of all time..... & Cruyff was as `artistic` as any player ever was, the Dutch people wouldn`t need to look too far for a hero if artistic players are their preference.
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Post by DuringTheWar Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:03 pm

I think it was political reasons that he didnt go to the 78 world cup. Anyway, its not very important to me.
Im quite sure van basten doesnt regard cruyff as the best. Kroll is another dutchman that thought maradona was better as well.
Maradona was quite clearly a better dribbler, the difference isnt minimal, maradona required less space to dribble than cruyff did. Cruyff was a great dribbler but he couldnt dribble as effectively as maradona, he needed more space.
Cruyff didnt have a better shot than maradona, maradona score from crazy angles and distances and he could do it in so many ways. Cruyff scored great goals as well but not as good as diegos imo. Whether he is a better overall goalscorer is another matter, but something thats more tactical than technical.
Heading isnt equal imo. Cruyff has a height advantage but he was not comfortable with heading the ball. Maradona lacked height but he was extremely talented at heading the ball, he set up numerous chances with his head, and scored some great goals such as against ac milan from outside the penalty area. There were even instances of him dribbling the ball with his head Wink
Cruyff better at crossing with both feet indeed. But maradona didnt need to cross with his right foot, he could wrap his left foot around the back of his right leg to cross when others would use their right. The incredible thing is, more often than not he didnt lose accuracy doing this.
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Post by Don Carlo Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:35 am

Diego Armando Maradona wrote:I think it was political reasons that he didnt go to the 78 world cup. Anyway, its not very important to me.
Im quite sure van basten doesnt regard cruyff as the best. Kroll is another dutchman that thought maradona was better as well.
Maradona was quite clearly a better dribbler, the difference isnt minimal, maradona required less space to dribble than cruyff did. Cruyff was a great dribbler but he couldnt dribble as effectively as maradona, he needed more space.
Cruyff didnt have a better shot than maradona, maradona score from crazy angles and distances and he could do it in so many ways. Cruyff scored great goals as well but not as good as diegos imo. Whether he is a better overall goalscorer is another matter, but something thats more tactical than technical.
Heading isnt equal imo. Cruyff has a height advantage but he was not comfortable with heading the ball. Maradona lacked height but he was extremely talented at heading the ball, he set up numerous chances with his head, and scored some great goals such as against ac milan from outside the penalty area. There were even instances of him dribbling the ball with his head Wink
Cruyff better at crossing with both feet indeed. But maradona didnt need to cross with his right foot, he could wrap his left foot around the back of his right leg to cross when others would use their right. The incredible thing is, more often than not he didnt lose accuracy doing this.

Yeah those crosses from the right using his left foot around the back were class, his crosses actually resulted in goals a couple of times.

Van Basten did say that about Cruyff in the past, whether he still feels that way I really don`t know but he did at one point.

I wont argue too much about the heading thing because its not a quality that either man can claim as their strongest point despite being competent.

I think Cruyff is a more complete player, maybe the most complete player of all time, I`m not saying that translates into being better but it pretty much guarantees that no player in history, Diego included, is better in every aspect of football. Cruyff was a player with no weaknesses on the field, easily ranks alongside any player in history.
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Post by The Franchise Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:11 am

Maradona doesnt have a right foot and Cruyff is vastly superior in the air.

That alone finishes your arguement.
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Post by DuringTheWar Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:38 am

Right foot, ok true, although his right foot was good when he used it, even brilliant on occasions, he was one of the most one footed players in history. Better in the air? no way. Height is his only advantage in the air
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Post by DuringTheWar Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:44 am

Don Carlo wrote:I think Cruyff is a more complete player, maybe the most complete player of all time, I`m not saying that translates into being better but it pretty much guarantees that no player in history, Diego included, is better in every aspect of football

No, but diego is better in most of the fundemental techniques imo, perhaps not every one, but most that i can think of
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Post by Zealous Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:16 am

The Franchise wrote:Maradona doesnt have a right foot and Cruyff is vastly superior in the air.

That alone finishes your arguement.

Ronaldo > Messi :bow: Razz

As far as European players those Beckenbauer, Platini and Van Basten chaps ain't bad.

Laudrup and Zidane if we're looking at the 90's early 2000's.

Disclaimer: I"m not necessarily saying any of these guys were better just throwing names out there.
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Post by Guest Fri Sep 28, 2012 4:02 pm

Di Stefano is the most complete player of all time and should be placed in the top 3 Cruyff comes somewhere in the top 10 though I believe

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Post by VanDeezNuts Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:13 pm

easily in the top 3 of all time.

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Post by jibers Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:06 pm

Well I don't believe in top this and that.

Pele for me is the best attaacker, Di Stefano even said it recently. Cruyff was great, but for me Pele, Maradona, Messi and Di Stefano are above him.
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Post by pewpew Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:02 pm

inb4 Jiopsi say messi is top 3

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Post by SchinnerC Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:03 pm

So, technicality defines how good a player is? How about the mental side of the game? It's just as important.
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Post by The Franchise Sat Sep 29, 2012 1:53 am

Zealous wrote:
The Franchise wrote:Maradona doesnt have a right foot and Cruyff is vastly superior in the air.

That alone finishes your arguement.

Ronaldo > Messi :bow: Razz


Diego Armando Maradona wrote: i dont think so, diego was a better individualist , better in every technical aspect of the game.

That was what I was answering.


And on that, anyone (no matter how much of a fanboy who I can allow fanboyish comments and accept them as a semi-reasonable) who thinks Maradona has a better or even comparable weak foot or is header of the ball than Cruyff really have no buisness even debating this.

Zeal, those players aint bad...but comparing Zidane and such like to Cruyff is kinda like comparing Romario to Pele..

The Kaiser to me is the only one who can stand up to him Cruyff and make a legit case for.
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Post by The Franchise Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:14 am

Di Stefano? A clearly great great player.

But with all due respect, how does one even start to compare him to even players of later eras? Especially from the mid 70's onawards.

By comparision to the 70's, the football of his days look two step away from being devoid of modern tactics.
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Post by Valkyrja Sat Sep 29, 2012 3:43 am

The Franchise wrote:Di Stefano? A clearly great great player.

But with all due respect, how does one even start to compare him to even players of later eras? Especially from the mid 70's onawards.

By comparision to the 70's, the football of his days look two step away from being devoid of modern tactics.

So how do you compare Cruyff with players of later eras like late 90's-early 00's?
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