Re: Barcelona Stealing Talent

by Guest Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:04

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Alc%C3%A1cer

I understand their frustration. Their club has gone through hell lately, trying to get rid of debt, lost their stars...and now that they are prdocing quality players within their own academy, they get poached by big guns.

It's easy for us to sit here and say, well that's football. it happens. But when you support team of your city, attend every single home game, and go to most European Away games, it creates a much stronger connection with the team that even the relatively small stuff like this drives you mad.

Still, Nou Mestalla is expected to be ready in 1.5 years, so hopefully that'll help them grow.

by RedOranje Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:06

Schweini wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francisco_Alc%C3%A1cer

I understand their frustration. Their club has gone through hell lately, trying to get rid of debt, lost their stars...and now that they are prdocing quality players within their own academy, they get poached by big guns.

It's easy for us to sit here and say, well that's football. it happens. But when you support team of your city, attend every single home game, and go to most European Away games, it creates a much stronger connection with the team that even the relatively small stuff like this drives you mad.

Still, Nou Mestalla is expected to be ready in 1.5 years, so hopefully that'll help them grow.

Speaking form experience, there?

by billy_gr Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:12

No double standards… my stance was the same when Arsenal was claiming Cesc all these years back.
And let’s not pretend that “smaller” clubs don’t do the exact thing at clubs “smaller” than them.
I understand the frustration but that’s how it is really. Not playing high and mighty or anything. I don’t care if Premier league harvests every La Masia product. It falls to the club and the player to continue their partnership

by RedOranje Tue 19 Jun 2012, 10:20

Fans of English clubs in general have no reason to be commenting on this topic. England clubs have been exploiting the different laws in England to poach talent away from foreign clubs and only just last season set voted to put in place a new structure in the English leagues that will make it significantly easier to poach young talent from lower league clubs. Madrid poach young players from lower sides as well, as do Bayern, Juve, Milan, Inter, Roma and every other "large" club. I'd imagine Valencia have even done it more than a few times. It's completely understandable for a fan of a club losing young prospects to be upset, and I have no problem with op and Valencia fans in here complaining, but the rest of you who have suddenly seen fit to jump on the band wagon need to take a step back and realise just how hypocritical this is, unless you've chastised your own club for it as well. Right or wrong it's the way of things, and to so brazenly attack another club for such practices while turning a blind eye, or even celebrating, when your own club does it is nonsense.

Grow up.

by danyjr Tue 19 Jun 2012, 11:07

I didn't complain when Valencia "stole" Banega from us. In fact I was happy for him to join a bigger club and become a better player.

Don't blame the clubs. EVERY club "steals" a good player whenever it can. If you're concerned about monopoly, you should instead blame the rules that allow bigger clubs to "steal" these talents from smaller clubs, as mentioned before:

danyjr wrote:1- Completely contrary to what the OP claims, every big team in the world can lure talents because of better status and higher wages.
2- England has advantages on signing professional contracts to individuals aged 16 or above while in the rest of EU and the world the age is 18.
3- Spanish sports TV rights are so ridiculously dispersed between teams that Barcelona and Real Madrid automatically get an astronomic financial advantage over other teams.
4- Teams like Manchester City, Chelsea, Real Madrid and Paris Saint-Germain are bigger threats to equality in football with the sort of money they spend.
5- Blame capitalism.

by halamadrid2 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:37

windkick wrote:
We have players stolen from our youth academy all the time, deal with it.

uh-oh, apart from Cesc who came back because he was homesick, who else has anyone "stolen"

danyjr wrote:
4- Teams like Manchester City, Chelsea, Real Madrid and Paris Saint-Germain are bigger threats to equality in football with the sort of money they spend.

i love how the ones we spent on and are an integral part of our team cost less than your new flops that you bought, lets not forget the Eto-Ibra swap that is the worst piece of business anyone could ever do

Next time how about you pay the real amount rather than tapping them up like as if they are some sort of possession of yours ffs, whatever happened to the €14 mill bought Kerrison who is yet to make an appearance for you lol or the €10 mill man Henrique who as well didnt make a single appearance for you whose contract you then cancelled :brickwall:

by the xcx Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:38

To be honest those things happen all over the world, infact their pretty common.

by halamadrid2 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:41

RedOranje wrote:Fans of English clubs in general have no reason to be commenting on this topic. England clubs have been exploiting the different laws in England to poach talent away from foreign clubs and only just last season set voted to put in place a new structure in the English leagues that will make it significantly easier to poach young talent from lower league clubs. Madrid poach young players from lower sides as well, as do Bayern, Juve, Milan, Inter, Roma and every other "large" club. I'd imagine Valencia have even done it more than a few times. It's completely understandable for a fan of a club losing young prospects to be upset, and I have no problem with op and Valencia fans in here complaining, but the rest of you who have suddenly seen fit to jump on the band wagon need to take a step back and realise just how hypocritical this is, unless you've chastised your own club for it as well. Right or wrong it's the way of things, and to so brazenly attack another club for such practices while turning a blind eye, or even celebrating, when your own club does it is nonsense.

Grow up.

HUH??? like who??, Canales??? well it was for his own benefit or else he would've been forgotten when they got relegated this year and its not like he could've saved them :facepalm:

In fact its younger talent in our team that people try to poach, not so long ago Man City got our most promising forward in our youth team by offering him wages at the fcking age of 15

by kiranr Tue 19 Jun 2012, 12:58

halamadrid2 wrote:
danyjr wrote:
4- Teams like Manchester City, Chelsea, Real Madrid and Paris Saint-Germain are bigger threats to equality in football with the sort of money they spend.

i love how the ones we spent on and are an integral part of our team cost less than your new flops that you bought, lets not forget the Eto-Ibra swap that is the worst piece of business anyone could ever do

Next time how about you pay the real amount rather than tapping them up like as if they are some sort of possession of yours ffs, whatever happened to the €14 mill bought Kerrison who is yet to make an appearance for you lol or the €10 mill man Henrique who as well didnt make a single appearance for you whose contract you then cancelled

He is not a Barca fan Hala.

by urbaNRoots Tue 19 Jun 2012, 13:00

Is paying £500,000 to someone stealing? Because Arsenal paid to get Cex.

by billy_gr Tue 19 Jun 2012, 13:05

steeling as in luring... I don't suppose these kids aint getting anything from Barca back... as is the case with every player going to a big club

by billy_gr Tue 19 Jun 2012, 13:06

halamadrid2 wrote:
RedOranje wrote:Fans of English clubs in general have no reason to be commenting on this topic. England clubs have been exploiting the different laws in England to poach talent away from foreign clubs and only just last season set voted to put in place a new structure in the English leagues that will make it significantly easier to poach young talent from lower league clubs. Madrid poach young players from lower sides as well, as do Bayern, Juve, Milan, Inter, Roma and every other "large" club. I'd imagine Valencia have even done it more than a few times. It's completely understandable for a fan of a club losing young prospects to be upset, and I have no problem with op and Valencia fans in here complaining, but the rest of you who have suddenly seen fit to jump on the band wagon need to take a step back and realise just how hypocritical this is, unless you've chastised your own club for it as well. Right or wrong it's the way of things, and to so brazenly attack another club for such practices while turning a blind eye, or even celebrating, when your own club does it is nonsense.

Grow up.

HUH??? like who??, Canales??? well it was for his own benefit or else he would've been forgotten when they got relegated this year and its not like he could've saved them

In fact its younger talent in our team that people try to poach, not so long ago Man City got our most promising forward in our youth team by offering him wages at the fcking age of 15

Varane?

by halamadrid2 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 13:18

billy_gr wrote:Varane?

we payed 10 mill for Varane who only had 1 professional season under his belt, it was in fact his club that wanted him to go to us, they were relegated(put it this way we didnt poach him his club wanted/needed the cash that we payed so they encouraged him to come to us) I fail to see how that could've been poaching as if Lens could've won Ligue 1 in due course or as if we depleted them so that they couldn't qualify for EL. Just like Canales it was for his own benefit that he moved up the ladder

by billy_gr Tue 19 Jun 2012, 13:22

that's the whole point. every big club offers something that either the player or the club cannot refuse. it's not kidnapping... that's what I was telling all along. people need to stop being so sensitive. then again it is Barca who is involved...

by halamadrid2 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 13:32

billy_gr wrote:that's the whole point. every big club offers something that either the player or the club cannot refuse. it's not kidnapping... that's what I was telling all along. people need to stop being so sensitive. then again it is Barca who is involved...

its one thing when a president wants to send you their player and another thing when you offer to take the player by offering more than the club he is currently at, without the clubs consent

I am not down playing Barca or anything but why do people go on about Arsene stealing Cesc when in fact he was payed for, while the two guys Barca got of Valencia weren't, also again Man City took our most promising forward because they could offer him wages, the difference here is that Barca are known for their lovely La Masia while the rest of the world aren't, what would people say when they find out half of them were poached from rival youth teams??

by billy_gr Tue 19 Jun 2012, 13:38

I didn't complain one bit when arsenal took cesc.
They paid him and they offered firsst team football. I'm fine with it.
as for the guys barca took how do u know Valencia gained nothing? I know for a fact hat Pedro's team was untill recently still compensated for the kid's performances. We cannot possible know what deal is struck. In the end that's football

by halamadrid2 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 13:46

billy_gr wrote:I didn't complain one bit when arsenal took cesc.
They paid him and they offered firsst team football. I'm fine with it.
as for the guys barca took how do u know Valencia gained nothing? I know for a fact hat Pedro's team was untill recently still compensated for the kid's performances. We cannot possible know what deal is struck. In the end that's football

maybe not you but many did, and lets not fool ourselves it was a widespread opinion that Arsene stole him

with Pedro its quite different, he was 17 and he came from a club in the 4th division, thats their job, they make talent and sell it off to be able to exist, Valencia dont exactly do that, they have their own and can easily integrate them into their first team so they have a better chance of competing with the duopoly

with Alcaser probably, but with the two other young ones, they were 11 if i am not mistaken, they are free to join Barca if they want to because they are not bound into a contract, so Valencia cant exactly take you to court to force you to cough up the cash

by free_cat Tue 19 Jun 2012, 13:51

halamadrid2 wrote:
billy_gr wrote:that's the whole point. every big club offers something that either the player or the club cannot refuse. it's not kidnapping... that's what I was telling all along. people need to stop being so sensitive. then again it is Barca who is involved...

I am not down playing Barca or anything but why do people go on about Arsene stealing Cesc when in fact he was payed for

Oh but they stole Cesc. They tried to sign him without paying any compensation and Barça sued them and won. They had to pay because they were forced, not because they did things the right way. Same happened with Fran Merida.

by billy_gr Tue 19 Jun 2012, 13:54

halamadrid2 wrote:
billy_gr wrote:I didn't complain one bit when arsenal took cesc.
They paid him and they offered firsst team football. I'm fine with it.
as for the guys barca took how do u know Valencia gained nothing? I know for a fact hat Pedro's team was untill recently still compensated for the kid's performances. We cannot possible know what deal is struck. In the end that's football

maybe not you but many did, and lets not fool ourselves it was a widespread opinion that Arsene stole him

with Pedro its quite different, he was 17 and he came from a club in the 4th division, thats their job, they make talent and sell it off to be able to exist, Valencia dont exactly do that, they have their own and can easily integrate them into their first team so they have a better chance of competing with the duopoly

with Alcaser probably, but with the two other young ones, they were 11 if i am not mistaken, they are free to join Barca if they want to because they are not bound into a contract, so Valencia cant exactly take you to court to force you to cough up the cash

Exactly. Valencia is not a small club. If they can’t secure their talent something should be done internally.
It’s only logical other teams scout your talent pool as well. It’s your job to give your youth incentives to stay at the club. Barca didn’t do it with Cesc, Valencia probably didn’t do it now. No use crying over spilt milk in both cases

by halamadrid2 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 13:58

@ free_cat, the difference here is the tried to steal him but failed, maybe they thought he was till 15 but he had turned 16

And its not like Cesc was from Barcas academy either, just read this on wiki

His first coach, Señor Blai, reportedly did not select Fàbregas for matches against Barcelona in an attempt to hide him from their scouts. This tactic, however, was unable to withstand Barcelona for long, and Mataró gave in and allowed Fàbregas to train with Barcelona one day per week. Eventually Fàbregas joined Barcelona's academy full time.

With Merida it was different in the sense that it was he that wanted to leave so he was fined for that, not sure if Arsenal were, he had already signed a contract so they had to pay

by halamadrid2 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 14:07

billy_gr wrote:Exactly. Valencia is not a small club. If they can’t secure their talent something should be done internally.
It’s only logical other teams scout your talent pool as well. It’s your job to give your youth incentives to stay at the club. Barca didn’t do it with Cesc, Valencia probably didn’t do it now. No use crying over spilt milk in both cases

which is were the tv deals comes in, i am sure if Valencia had more money they would offer them to stay, but what do you offer 11 yos other than a training facility???

we had our own Madrid B team in the same league as Patheticos does that mean we poach their talented young players, (there were many mind you)??? no, can Pathetico offer as much as we do to their youth?? no, you have to be sensible

as you said Arsenal obviously offered more, which is why he went, thats why i didnt mention alcacer but rather the two younger ones, i am sure the alcacer guy understands he has a better chance of getting promoted for Valencia than Barca, but do the other two??? i am sure they thought "oh Barca they won CL, i should join them to brag" or that it was better for their families that they got supportive measures from the club, which is probably why Iniesta left to Barca from Real

Anyways i agree with you no need to cry over spilt milk, but if the rumours are true that Barca stole two players from behind Valencias back, then thats just unprofessional

by kiranr Tue 19 Jun 2012, 14:17

It could also be the opportunity to study in a better school.

by halamadrid2 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 14:19

hmm you and your ideas lol, do you really think Valencia are short of good schools???

its like going from Birmingham to London because they have better schools, dont think that was the case lol, maybe it was better for the parents though that one is more believable

by kiranr Tue 19 Jun 2012, 14:28

halamadrid2 wrote:hmm you and your ideas lol, do you really think Valencia are short of good schools???

its like going from Birmingham to London because they have better schools, dont think that was the case lol, maybe it was better for the parents though that one is more believable

If Barcelona approached the kids without informing Valencia, then that is unprofessional, no matter that other clubs do it too. But is that confirmed? Were the parents looking to move their kids in the first place? How do we know that is not the case?

by halamadrid2 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 14:32

yh i think its confirmed didn't che post the thread a couple of days ago, the latter part could be a possibility tho but why sign for Barca straight away??? Barca obviously must have known they were talented in any shape or form

I am willing to concede defeat with grace if it turned out their parents wanted them to move and not themselves, but as you said its difficult to know

by halamadrid2 Tue 19 Jun 2012, 14:35

here is the article kiranr, its google translated tho

Barcelona will checkout to sign Jordi Alba for 12 million euros but as an appetizer free Valencia has swiped two of the pearls of the quarry Paterna. Enric Martinez and Abel Ruiz, age 12 players who have excelled brilliantly this season in the juvenile (soccer 7), and make the bags to anchor this summer at La Masia.
In the club there is outrage Valencia Barca maneuver, especially because it is the first case of its kind to be produced. In fact, in addition to Enric and Abel-midfielder and forward, respectively, emigrated to Barcelona in the past children and Tarin Rodrigo Grimaldo, Frank and Alex. Lacking the Valencia signed by the age of the kids any contract, the club and any club can legally hunt the player you want.
The big problem is that the club has never existed any written or verbal commitment or respect the work of quarry, hence the Valencia may also make such moves with other junior teams. "Barca always does the same. It comes and takes what he wants ... I could well have the best pool of Spain, "said an official yesterday very upset-white school.
Valencia has decided that these two kids did not participate from now on any of the planned friendly tournaments. It lets them train, though. In the club stresses that it has tried every means to prevent the two children accept the Catalan proposal, moved by William Love version, on the other hand, the families of those involved significantly qualify the view that Valencia has acted with a lack of tact and with a slow reflexes alarming despite the desire to stay.
Keep in mind that all children playing in the football training equipment 7 pay. However, the club scholarship aa certain players. In the case of Enric and Abel, the interest of Barcelona comes from afar, even from last season. "We have offered it impossible for them to stay", said from Valencia, but the families of the children, yes grateful to Valencia, remember that for many months they waited a conversation or a gesture that never came.

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