Messi wins golden shoe 11-12.

jiopsi wrote:And all the games before Clasico were the games, where Messi was crucial in catching Madrid's lead. Messi also scored both goals against Atletico away and gave crucial 3 point. One which was a brilliantly orchestrated freekick.

You are only scratching the surface whit that kind of analysis. More detailed ones give you better picture of the whole season, and lets face it, the whole season is what mattered here.

like i said, i dont discount what he has done.

I gave you two examples of goals Ronaldo scored that cant be quantified by statistics, to explain to you how flawed that table is to me.

after fact it comes down to each's appreciation to weight that kind of goals, because the context gives those goals a special value.

i can tell you about the 4 goals Messi put past Malaga but what are they worth really? the league was lost, and he was just padding his stats

those guys will score goals, and we acknowledge that. But we are more interested in seeing them scoring those goals in context sensitive situations. if you can get stats that translate those situations then i will welcome the read.

Mr Nick09 wrote:

jiopsi wrote:And all the games before Clasico were the games, where Messi was crucial in catching Madrid's lead. Messi also scored both goals against Atletico away and gave crucial 3 point. One which was a brilliantly orchestrated freekick.

You are only scratching the surface whit that kind of analysis. More detailed ones give you better picture of the whole season, and lets face it, the whole season is what mattered here.

like i said, i dont discount what he has done.

I gave you two examples of goals Ronaldo scored that cant be quantified by statistics, to explain to you how flawed that table is to me.

after fact it comes down to each's appreciation to weight that kind of goals, because the context gives those goals a special value.

i can tell you about the 4 goals Messi put past Malaga but what are they worth really? the league was lost, and he was just padding his stats

those guys will score goals, and we acknowledge that. But we are more interested in seeing them scoring those goals in context sensitive situations. if you can get stats that translate those situations then i will welcome the read.

How exactly it proves that the table is flawed, when he earned 5 points to Madrid from those games, according to the table?

Also I think the difference was even bigger before the clasico, than after the season.

The table accounts for one less player for each match, so according to the table, both of Barcelona and Madrid has to play one man down against opposition, that's the flaw in it.

Everyone else seems to be missing the bigger issue here, Barcelona is a Europe League quality without Messi, let's hype their player more now!

Potential wrote:The table accounts for one less player for each match, so according to the table, both of Barcelona and Madrid has to play one man down against opposition, that's the flaw in it.

Everyone else seems to be missing the bigger issue here, Barcelona is a Europe League quality without Messi, let's hype their player more now!

No, that is the flaw in the logic of your thinking.

The table isn't "what if" scenario, rather than "what happened", the importance of individuality, and the rest of the team, on the whole season.

Personally I prefer a player who has scored more winners and scored more even amount of goals home and away. Ala Ronaldo.

Not to mention Ronaldo's scoring feats have come mostly from the wing where as Messi plays as a CF.

Good on Messi for scoring a but load of Pen's at the end of the season but people claiming he had the best season in LigaBBVA are full of shit, end of.

Throughballs + key passes La Liga 2011-2012 (whoscored.com)

Messi 56+92 = 148 37 games
Cronaldo 19+60 = 79 38 games

So Messi was better goals scorer in less penos, better assister, better creator, more important to the team, brought more points in more games, and his goals were more individualistic.

I think the stats tell you only one thing really.

Crimson wrote:I guess the neg repping "which isn't supposed to be there" is coming from butt hurt jiopsi?

Hey dickhead I have a news flash for you:
This post was made by jiopsi who is currently on your ignore list. Display this post.

I wonder how you still have 100%,


well not really.

Jiopsi:

Basic knowledge in excel and .gif-animations doesn't make your point any more valid.

You can use statistics in any way you want.

For example, in the mould of a typical Jiopsi filtered stat:

How many times do a player need to get the ball before doing something deciding with it (goal or assist)? A not that easily accessible stat. But whoscored.com got the amount of passes a player have per game, the amount of shots he have per game and the amount of times he is dispossessed. Those 3 together should roughly equal to the total amount of times a player touch/get the ball per game since you have to have it to be able to loose it, shoot or pass.

For Ronaldo it looks something like this:

37 passes per games, 2,1 times dispossessed per game and 6,9 shots per game. A ~ total of 46 times of possession per game.

Ronaldo played 37 games this season. So in total 46*37 = 1702 times of possession this season.

How many times do Ronaldo need to get the ball to score a goal or make an assist?
1702/58 = 29,3 times.

Messi:

63,8 passes per game, 2,6 times dispossessed per game and 5,5 shots per game. A ~ total of 71,9 times of possession per game.

Messi played 36 games this season. So in total 71,9*36 = 2588 times of possession this season.

How many times do Messi need to get the ball to score a goal or make an assist?
2588/66 = 39,2 times.

Now I could go on to make an excel list with some other random names here and make a nice presentation along with it to make it out to be the be all, end all stat. Or I could just make a thread and have my "winning point" be the fact that Messi is reliant on Barcas high possession so he can get his high level of involvement in the game to be able to produce what he does. "As proved" by his much weaker numbers for Argentina when he doesn't have the luxury of 71,9 times of possession per game.

jiopsi is really butt hurt negging people :lol!: also I stand on my point, Barceloan is an average team without Missi.

Also, the difference between Messi and Ronaldos "times on the ball" is 886. In those touches, taking the average into consideration. Ronaldo would have scored or assisted a further 886/29,3 = 30 goals.

So if Ronaldo had the luxury of the kind of built-around-him with the kind of possession strong side that Barca is, that Messi do have. He'd had 86 goals + assist this past season.

Just bringing your favorite kind of truth, statistical, without taking anything else into consideration.

Potential wrote:jiopsi is really butt hurt negging people :lol!: also I stand on my point, Barceloan is an average team without Missi.

Yes, the reigning World Cup winners and Euro winners is average... This makes zero sense as well. It's rather having that kind of team catering just to you is making Barca out to be lesser than they are while Messi is made out to be greater than he is.

paperbackwriter wrote:

Potential wrote:jiopsi is really butt hurt negging people :lol!: also I stand on my point, Barceloan is an average team without Missi.

Yes, the reigning World Cup winners and Euro winners is average... This makes zero sense as well. It's rather having that kind of team catering just to you is making Barca out to be lesser than they are while Messi is made out to be greater than he is.

Barcelona is the same as Spain :vagi:

Xabi, Torres, Casillas, Ramos, Silva and Capdevila all played major roles in the euro and wc; that's half the starting eleven.

Paperback, you understand Messi has more touches because he plays deeper, more interacting game don't you?

Shots per goal

Messi 202 goals 50 = 4.0 shots per goal
Cronaldo 264 goals 46 = 5.7 shots per goal

Not only was Messi twice more creative than Cronaldo, he also waisted less scoring opportunities than Cronaldo.

Ok, you're officially too stupid to understand when people make a parody on you even when they write their intentions out. And instead try to argue the points in named parody.

Go on now, create a couple of excel-documents and a couple of gifs.

paperbackwriter wrote:Ok, you're officially too stupid to understand when people make a parody on you even when they write their intentions out. And instead try to argue the points in named parody.

Go on now, create a couple of excel-documents and a couple of gifs.

Awww, insulting Madrid fan. You would make Mou proud.

I think I will continue opposing the idiocy in the future also.

Potential wrote:

paperbackwriter wrote:

Potential wrote:jiopsi is really butt hurt negging people :lol!: also I stand on my point, Barceloan is an average team without Missi.

Yes, the reigning World Cup winners and Euro winners is average... This makes zero sense as well. It's rather having that kind of team catering just to you is making Barca out to be lesser than they are while Messi is made out to be greater than he is.

Barcelona is the same as Spain :vagi:

Xabi, Torres, Casillas, Ramos, Silva and Capdevila all played major roles in the euro and wc; that's half the starting eleven.

Torres didnt do crap in the WC and Silva rarely even played and capdevilla didnt have much of an impact.That leaves Xabi,Ramos and Casillas.

Please guys, try to stay polite. Insulting each other is unbecoming and makes both parties not look too good.

vivabarca38 wrote:

Potential wrote:

paperbackwriter wrote:

Potential wrote:jiopsi is really butt hurt negging people :lol!: also I stand on my point, Barceloan is an average team without Missi.

Yes, the reigning World Cup winners and Euro winners is average... This makes zero sense as well. It's rather having that kind of team catering just to you is making Barca out to be lesser than they are while Messi is made out to be greater than he is.

Barcelona is the same as Spain :vagi:

Xabi, Torres, Casillas, Ramos, Silva and Capdevila all played major roles in the euro and wc; that's half the starting eleven.

Torres didnt do crap in the WC and Silva rarely even played and capdevilla didnt have much of an impact.That leaves Xabi,Ramos and Casillas.

Villa did a lot, not for Barca this season though.

Messi was FAR, FAR better in the season in overall play, carrying barca's play from start to finish and beasting it every match when he had no one else to rely on in the attacking third.
He had a few poor matches (by his godly standards) early in the season...but that was because of a lack of support and crazy pep formations. Mostly due to lack of support. These aren’t excuses, they are fact.

In la liga matches, when the going got tough, Messi always stepped it up. That's how it went in barca games this season. And the going got tough often. You could see his face when he got angry. He'd take the ball, dribble past 3 players and lay it off, creating a spark for the team.

He’s a true leader. A leader by example. I can’t say the same about CR7. He doesn’t have the same mentality on the pitch.

CR7 was only "better" in la liga because they got results due to a concerted team effort. Madrid were stronger as a unit than Barca this season.

Ronaldo was more decisive in the camp nou match (only cause he scored the goal), but that does not speak volumes about the season overall, as football is really a team sport, and I feel Messi’s teammates let him down when it mattered.

CR7 scored some great individual goals and had an awesome season for Madrid no doubt, but you can’t compare that to what Messi did. Messi individually carried the entire team which was hampered by injuries, loss of form, and erratic formations, yet he would bring his A game almost every 3 days.

If the goals + assists + all the records he broke doesn’t convince you, I am afraid nothing will. Most of you who talk smack on here probably didn’t even watch every Barca game this year.

I feel the only Madrid fan who truly understands Messi’s level of football is Nick. The rest of them are just delusional and can’t see past their bias.

_LMG_10_ wrote:Messi was FAR, FAR better in the season in overall play, carrying barca's play from start to finish and beasting it every match when he had no one else to rely on in the attacking third.
He had a few poor matches (by his godly standards) early in the season...but that was because of a lack of support and crazy pep formations. Mostly due to lack of support. These aren’t excuses, they are fact.

In la liga matches, when the going got tough, Messi always stepped it up. That's how it went in barca games this season. And the going got tough often. You could see his face when he got angry. He'd take the ball, dribble past 3 players and lay it off, creating a spark for the team.

He’s a true leader. A leader by example. I can’t say the same about CR7. He doesn’t have the same mentality on the pitch.

CR7 was only "better" in la liga because they got results due to a concerted team effort. Madrid were stronger as a unit than Barca this season.

Ronaldo was more decisive in the camp nou match (only cause he scored the goal), but that does not speak volumes about the season overall, as football is really a team sport, and I feel Messi’s teammates let him down when it mattered.

CR7 scored some great individual goals and had an awesome season for Madrid no doubt, but you can’t compare that to what Messi did. Messi individually carried the entire team which was hampered by injuries, loss of form, and erratic formations, yet he would bring his A game almost every 3 days.

If the goals + assists + all the records he broke doesn’t convince you, I am afraid nothing will. Most of you who talk smack on here probably didn’t even watch every Barca game this year.

I feel the only Madrid fan who truly understands Messi’s level of football is Nick. The rest of them are just delusional and can’t see past their bias.

And actually in that game also, both were involved in a one goal. Plus Messi made the best scoring opportunity of the game for Xavi.

Agree everything else though.

What are Madrid fans arguing here exactly? That CR played better than Messi this season?

Funny how some people consider winner goals the last one, like if you are 2:2 and then score for 3:2. It is like the first 2 goals are not winners or not worthy goals?? Stupid thinking. The table actually shows that Messi had more impact (last goals or assists or not, it does not matter). His goals kept us up when all our strikers were shit.

Now RM fans, do not get me wrong, Christina is a great player (probably 2nd best in the world), and i would trade Messis record with Christina for the league title, also Messi's goals at the end of the season are worthless, but he carried out our team and deserves all the hype he gets, so enjoy your title and stop acting like Penaldos concubines.

Yeah as if opening goals equaling goals are not important as winners

imagine if madrid fans had messi in their team. what would they do? they would say messi created football

people here actually think barcelona are mediocre without messi?! lol, one does simply not score 70 goals with mediocre teammates. Do the maths

messi plays with argentina - useless without barca team mates
messi with barca - rest of the team useless without him ...

still can't figure out which one people argue. swap messi with someone like ribery and they'd still at least be among europe's best. if messi's carried a average team to so much success, then it's official messi's achievements>maradona's.

Nah, the rest of the team is not useless, we had trouble with injuries and form dropping in front line. Only Messi was worthy to start up front this season for Barca. Therefore, he carried out the attack, and had so many goals compared to the rest of the team as the other attackers were not on par (or constantly injured) with the rest of the team.