Re: Rank these center defenders.

by Arquitecto Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:20 am

rwo power wrote:
Arquitecto wrote:1. You haven't provided any numbers to prove Badstubers superiority.
I have posted them often enough in a couple of other threads and thus I thought repeating them *again* would just be tedious and not add anything.

Arquitecto wrote:2. Badstuber isn't even the 3rd best CB in Germany.
That's your opinion. Mine and that from several other people (including sports journalists, coaches etc) is a different one.

Arquitecto wrote:3. This thread wasn't even about the top CBs as otherwise many others would also be mentioned.
Well, what was it about then? "Random defender sorting puzzle"? Hm....

Sushi Master wrote:Idro's Badstuber hate turned RWO into the Official Badstuber defender
Indeed I hate people being wrongly vilified.

1. The numbers your provided are passing stats and arbitrary tackling numbers in percentages. If you noticed, that was already counter argued and didn't convince anyone.

2. The opinions of Loew, Rangnick don't really have much ground to convince me as I already named managers who are actually accomplished and their blunderous decisions in player selection. (not that Badtstuber is a blunder).

3. Did he name it as a top cb selection? Not really. As otherwise, Nesta, Mascherano, barzhagli, hoewdes, etc etc all would be included in this list. As otherwise their be arguments on the exclusions.

by rwo power Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:42 am

Arquitecto wrote:1. The numbers your provided are passing stats and arbitrary tackling numbers in percentages. If you noticed, that was already counter argued and didn't convince anyone.

Actually, the counter arguments were only based on subjective impressions again, which weren't exactly convincing either. I haven't seen any hard facts as counter arguments after all.

Arquitecto wrote:2. The opinions of Loew, Rangnick don't really have much ground to convince me as I already named managers who are actually accomplished and their blunderous decisions in player selection. (not that Badtstuber is a blunder).

Well, it doesn't actually matter if you are convinced or not, the fact is that Badstuber is a starter in both the Bayern line-up and the German NT, of which especially the latter fact implies that he is obviously the German number one CB and not Hummels, not Höwedes and not Mertesacker, who all have to compete for the remaining place beside Badstuber.

by Arquitecto Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:32 am

Actually, the counter arguments were only based on subjective impressions again, which weren't exactly convincing either. I haven't seen any hard facts as counter arguments after all.

But you are the one who presented this the facts with an objective to prove Badstubers' superiority. With all due respect I don't remember any sufficient counter argument from your side on the original counter arguments.

Well, it doesn't actually matter if you are convinced or not, the fact is that Badstuber is a starter in both the Bayern line-up and the German NT, of which especially the latter fact implies that he is obviously the German number one CB and not Hummels, not Höwedes and not Mertesacker, who all have to compete for the remaining place beside Badstuber.

Of course it doesn't matter.

But now I guess I should just ignore all managerial selections that generally are known to be faulty and follow the opinions based on Loew's selection whereas Hoewedes, Mertesacker and Hummels all have been better. Doesn't matter to much though since I only hope for the man's success. (Badstuber)

I would... however, like counter arguments to these

Boateng alongside Van Buyten are the best CB back in Bayern, our defense is so shaky and generally this season it has been Badstuber that is the weakest link, example of this is that you simply have to look back to yesterday match against Hoffenheim and see for yourself one of the most clumsiestest pass he gave to Gustavo, that put him under unnecessary pressure and as a result scored an own goal(Badstuber always put other team mate under-pressure and player like Boateng and Neuer has complained about this bitterly during matches, however the manager and other Germans just deliberately ignore this, because they want him playing at all cost). Last season was a disaster with DVB-Badstuber and that paring will always get found out in big games. Probably the worst performance I have seen from a defender came during the FC Koln game, when Badstuber was solely responsible for all 3 goals, that resulted to Koln coming back from2goal down to win against us, got criticised by Van Gaal the man who brought him into the spotlight, cried like a baby and got dropped and lost his starting position to a Midfielder(Tymo)

This season, Loew and Heynckes I think like Badstuber's distribution on the ball and Heynckes plays him because he is a young blonde German international and he's left footed. He does not have much competition for the left sided spot internationally and Loew is still experimenting to find his ideal pairing, which shd be Boateng and Hummels in my mind as it was at u21 level.

Boateng has consistently performed and proved to be a superior and more gifted defender than Badstuber, in terms of speed, versatile, strength, anticipation, tackling, acceleration, concentration, not being clumsy, jump, heading, stamina but yet the dumb JH go ahead to say things like he's not been consistence(this really baffles me because until DVB injury Boateng was being thrown around, from bench to, RB and to CB and while Badstuber for 2years has played in one position and yet he's been outclass by Boateng whenever he plays as a CB) That sounds like a pretty sound argument to me, and also the fact that multiple times Badstuber's individual errors and limited defensive skills have lead to conceded goals... just to mention a few, he was ball watching when stuttgart scored in his zone and it was his man that scored, he gifted a goal to Toure against Man City and he failed to make any kind of tackle and was easily beaten by Rosenburg against Werder before he scored, and failed tackle Reus which led to Herman 2nd goal, got a red card and scored an own goal against Napoli both leg, assist to Gustavo own goal.

To me Badstuber is not only not a good defender but a poor defender who could probably player better as a DM in a diamond formation, rather as a Cb. Yes I agree he's decent with the ball at his feet, but sometimes you have to question some of his clumsy passings, that put team-mate under pressure, and that is an objective evaluation.

Speaking of manager evaluation, I would rather go with Basler evaluation on Badstuber than JH(Hoeness toy) or Loew and his obsession with Bayern Munich players. As Basler earlier said, Badstuber is the weakest link in Bayern and there is clear evidence on the pitch, you slimly have to watch Bayern next match.

Oh and when it comes to other young CBs that are performing well just look at Germany, Howedes, Hummels and Boateng were all instrumental in Germany winning the u21 euro championship a couple years back, Badstuber was not even considered. He was poor last season in a disastrous defense under van gaal and has been poor this season following a few good games when he was protected by Schweini. Loew has only recently played Badstuber as a starting cb because I suspect he doesn't see any other options on the left side of cb or perhaps he wants a ball playing Cb and like he said during the world cup he picked Badstuber because he plays for Bayern and with the insistence of playing Boateng at RB and Hummels at right cb. In any case the evidence is on the pitch week in week out that Bayern have a weak link in defense in the form of BADstuber, and I will literally have proof every week both for Bayern and Germany when Bayern play quality opposition to prove this point. furthermore in every game Badstuber has not played objectively Bayern have experienced a much superior defense and that is a fact.

Van Buyen is not a world class, but generally this season he has been good; strong, powerful in the air, well positioned and intercepted well and his lack of pace is covered well by Boateng, who I believe has the most potential out of the defensive players; fast, sharp, strong, great tackler. I tried giving Badstuber a chance this season after the disaster last season but he continues to be very suspect when defending despite being decent on the ball.

Since Bayern's great defense of 2001, they have made some regretful decisions in terms of their defensive players and evaluation by managers; selling Lucio, Ishmael and Hummels, sticking with Demichelis, Breno, Badstuber, playing Van Buyten when he was in poor for. I believe Badstuber is going to cost Bayern for the tittle challenge towards the last few matches (he generally does). I feel frustrated in that Bayern and how they keep making this defensive mistake.

Its frustrating knowing, Lucio, Hummels and Demichelis were sold because of Badstuber, Mertesacker who has been instrumental for recent Germany success may now have to be dropped because of mediocre Badstuber who will cost the national team dearly like he did in the world cup.

Just to add to Babun's argument regarding Hummels and Badstuber(it's a stupid argument by the way, because one is clearly far above the other) First of all Badstuber dwells so much time on the ball making easy passings to defenders, Goalkeeper and Midfielders that occasional result to conceded goals.

It's not about quantity of duels, but quality is what really matters, clearly some duel are easy to deal with than other.

Don't let anyone deceive you with statistic and useless kickers articles always trying to praise Bayern players, notice how they failed to mention how Badstuber is the echo man, who hardly make any real, challenging or difficult tackles, most time he's left with easy peasy tackles or left over balls by Boateng or DVB.

The real deal is that, sometime ago Kaiser and Hoeness mentioned that they will like to have a defender like Pique, who can dictate the game from defence and who developed his game in Bayern Munich Academy. As a result they tried signing Hummels January last year, we tried to unsettle him with the buyout clause that was in his contract but he disappointed us and extended his contract, so they decided to stick with Badstuber(they had no choice Anyways) and went ahead with the plan of having such defender.

This is the reason why Badstuber starts every Game, even though Jupp's claims he will rotates the team but Badstuber never get rotated(obviously he's not that good, he's not indispensable to our defence ) Hoeness want to see him develop quickly and Most Media are trying to make it look like he's better than Hummels, which he's definitely not, (they have gone as far as writing articles about it) he's not even closed and to add to that Badstuber potential defensively isn't that great.

What annoy me most about him, is when he tries to control other defender such as DVB and Boateng who are far older than him and have more experience, he had a fight with DVB sometime ago as a result of this, then with Boateng because he always put him in difficult position and last blaming an attacker(Muller) for goal conceded against Basel, when he was actually partly faulty for the goal, for running out, failed to get the ball, exposed the defence and team-mates and confusing everyone in defense.

Badstuber Stats are highly and heavily over-rated by Rwo Power and his other lovers. From when I last kept record, Badstuber had 282 duels(tackle, challenge, battle, whatever it is) Winning winning 67% while Mats Hummels has 361 duels, winning 66%. Clear Hummels dealt with more tackle not only that but much tougher tackle, unlike Badstuber who just sit at the back waiting for easy left over tackles but failing as usually when it really matters http://www.bundesliga.de/de/liga/clubs/fc-bayern-muenchen/index.php

Badstuber is too slow for his age, it will become even worst when he's older or add weight, he's not the best concerning clean tackles and he´s way too skinny and weak. Good game opening but his primary task is to win the ball clean and fast. He's a decent defender in the Bundesliga, but hes just not good enough for international class.

Going back to 2009, he got screwed by Valencia and Nani add to that Krasic, this season I've seen decent Bundesliga attacker turn him inside out, against Bremen Rosenberg turned him inside out and scored, against Dortmund lewandowski humiliated him.

People like Rwo Power will give excuses like: Oh! he played as LB when he got rolled all over by Nani, Valencia and Krasic, but then you will only have to ask yourself how about the real talented defenders like Boateng and Howedes who also play as fullback, did they get twisted out..? NO, because they have talent of defending that Badstuber absolutely lacks.

Ok back to statistics, what is the point of winning 67percent of easy peasy duels or left over tackles(like Badstuber always does) and then letting 33% of lost important duels lead to goals because those are the important ones, it is still not sayin anything that Badstuber is a good defender. 30 percent of attack Bayern defence has to deal with are the dangerous ones, the other 70 are easy especially in Bundesliga but you can not say that in respect to Dortmund or Schalke because team are not to scared to push forward against them.

Bayern Munich has world class forwards, there are days when defense has to do nothing but just stop the ball and play it to a midfielder. What I am pointing out is that the qualitity of duels is the arguement that counts, and looking at this, I have my problems with saying that Badstuber is a good defender, if anything he's a coward failing to show up when it really matters. Put him in Dortmund, Schalke or Dante Position, we won't even be here having this dialogue.

When has Badstuber ever saved Bayern Munich from a defeat? (Van Buyten has, even Boateng did against City 1st leg) When exactly does Badstuber show this his supposed skills? Obviously, when hiding against amazing Bayern Munich Midfielders and attacker especially when playing against poor teams in the Bundesliga who are afraid to push forward. But whenever the midfield fails, it's almost like when the wind blows and exposes the fowls anus for everyone to see and Badstuber is usually that fowl.

When playing against great forwards on international level, who pressurise him Badstuber is bound to make mistakes, watch the Ukraine match. I can guarantee you this, all you just have to do is Remember the match against Napoli both legs, City 2nd leg, Serbian, Manchester United etc.

Bayern Munich had played amazedly well beginning of this season when Schweini and Tymo/Gustavo(were in form) and playing in front of defense, the defender hardly have any problem. I saw us smash our opponents at home, sometimes…4:0, 4:1 5:0 and even 7:0, players like Aguero, Silva, Pizarro, Podolski, Cavanni, Rossi, looked like shit when playing against us as much as Cisse of Freiburg and other shitty teams in Bundesliga. Reason for this is because they dont come to the alianz arena to win they are scared of Kroos, Schweini, Tymo, Robben, Gomez, Ribery our Defense has nothing really to work on, no one fear our defence, at least not as much as Barcelona or any top team defense, like Madrid and Milan.

In Conclusion World class Bayern Munich offensive players = nothing really to work for Badstuber. Considering the amount of Bayern quality and compare it to Bundesliga then you can say in 8 of 10 cases Badstuber have Easy peasy duels(challenge, tackles)…But fails in the 2 most important or deadly ones, unlike Hummels, Dante or Howedes who have to deal with more difficult duels considering when you compare the quality of their team to Bundesliga.

But then again even against the so called small teams like BMG, Neverkusen, Hanover, Ausburgs which comes to my mind, Badstuber was also poor. No good game against Werder Bremen either (no chance against Naldo, Rosenberg I think)

Dont get me wrong – I never used to hate Badstuber, 2009 I was all out there praising him because of what I heard about him, saying he forced Lucio out of the team because he's such a great prospect, but it is clearly obvious now that it was one of the most stupid decision in recent years to sell Lucio to Inter, not only that Inter won cpl final but also Badstuber will never ever be as good as Lucio, not even close.

From most neutral point of view badstuber has no talent or potential, we all saw or should I say read what Former Bayern Legend Basler said about him, that he is the weakest link in Bayern line-up and has no business playing for Bayern.

Regarding his talent, apart form his decent distribution, which he got obviously because he used to play as a defensive midfielder for Bayern Munich Reserve sometime ago, Badstuber doesn't seems to be very athletic and strong, his positioning is very poor(many people say he has good positioning but that is so wrong) too many bad tackles from which the opponent could suffer a serious injury easily. A player (can't remember his name) has complained bitterly and accused him this season of trying to break his leg.(not a clean tackler) Not the fastest either.

In short terms: A decent defender is much more in the limelight when he has nothing really to do in his area, any defender will shine if they put him in Badstuber position and Dante, Hummels or Howedes will do much more better in his position.

International side:

Sorted out by joachim loew after one match in the world cup finals.

Arquitecto wrote:
rwo power wrote:
Arquitecto wrote:
Ask this forum, 9 out of 10 times they'll choose Hummels over Badstuber.

Well, ask the coaches (Gerland and Löw had both of them together), their choice was usually Badstuber before Hummels. And in the last editorial ranking of the kicker magazine, Badstuber came as Nr.1 before Hummels, too. These are people who actually earn their money with football, so I don't think they have no clue. ^^

Again with this faulty logic

You are naming me:

Gerland, who has spent his managing career as an assistant manager for several clubs and the clubs he managed he did not find success in while to this day he remains an assistant manager. Who in the world is he that I should so implicitly trust his views? Has he proven anything for his opinion to be followed? Because hes payed for it?

You name me Loew who has managed 6+ clubs without any notable success whatsoever. So because he reached a semi in the world club with Germany I should revere him as some world class manager? He is a talented manager, but he doesn't hold anywhere near the position to be cementing opinions as if he has built a career of success.

In other words you named me 2 relatively new managers who haven't proven much in order to convince me.

Want me name several managers who actually have proven something and who were proven wrong in their selections? Lippi in Italia, cappello in England, SAF, Wenger, Hitzfeld for his mid 2000s Bayern, Mourinho for Inter and Chelsea despite his successes.

All criticized and proven wrong for some of their player selections and choices.

Kicker? Isn't this the magazine that rates CBs based on passes competed or even shot percentage?

You dont need random numbers to prove defense. You can see it just by watching games and observing who has more cruciality, sound defense and it's technique and overall influence. It's quite easy.

That being said I will admit Badstuber has been better this season but mostly because Hummels has been way below par. Difference is that hummels has actually has one whole world class season (and a winning one) while this is Badstubers first season while still being unproven

The first 2 are Idriozet's wonderful debates (in which some parts I do not agree with and are too harsh)

The 3rd is mine.

by RealGunner Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:34 am

Travis_RM_91 wrote:Purely in terms of defensive abilities

Chiellini
T. Silva
Vidic (great but alot of physical problems now)
Pepe (Hate him or not, truth is he is the babysitter of the Madrid defence)
Terry
Hummels
Pique (When there is actually defending to do, he flops)

Vermaelen (nowhere the same level as the other 7 defenders. Not even close)

by Onyx Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:18 pm

I guess Pique's being ranked by his form rather than his ability.

by S Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:57 pm

Vermaelen another massively overrated Arsenal player.Maybe cuz of his ball playing skills and knack of scoring goals.

But defensively he is nowhere near world class.

And people are being harsh on Terry.He has lost pace but still is a great defender imo.

by Cassius Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:31 pm

Verm is kinda overrated only because of his technical side and goal scoring exploits. I agree with the others, he's a pretty 'Meh' defender, and I watch arsenal quite a bit.

Still a decent defender though, just not WC Like the others.

by Lex Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:02 pm

if Verm played for United or Madrid, a lot of people's opinions would be different.

by Cassius Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:07 pm

Lex wrote:if Verm played for United or Madrid, a lot of people's opinions would be different.

How?

by S Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:08 pm

Lex wrote:if Verm played for United or Madrid, a lot of people's opinions would be different.

Nah.Hummels plays for Dortmund and people still rate him highly.Just take a look at some of the lists on here.

I made my list purely based on defensive ability :coffee:

by Lex Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:11 pm

Cassius_Case wrote:How?

You actually want me to explain it?

by Cassius Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:37 pm

Lex wrote:
Cassius_Case wrote:How?
You actually want me to explain it?

Please?

Edit: infact you dont have to explain bro, i kinda see what you mean but i still disagree, Verm is a decent player but not as good at the rest at defending.

Not many CB's can sucsessfully hide their below average defending and still be considered great, no matter what team they play for.

by Travis_RM_91 Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:08 am

Lex wrote:if Verm played for United or Madrid, a lot of people's opinions would be different.

Not really, United and Madrid's defenders get hated on too. Look at Evans and Pepe. For all the poor behaviour, Pepe hardly puts a foot wrong at the back yet look at how much contempt is held for him.

Vermaelen, talking strictly interms of defending, is more or less average, any decent forward on a decent night will tear him a new one. Just callin it as I see it.

by RealGunner Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:31 am

which forward has ever tore vermaelen apart ?

by RealGunner Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:31 am

Surag wrote:Vermaelen another massively overrated Arsenal player.Maybe cuz of his ball playing skills and knack of scoring goals.

But defensively he is nowhere near world class.

And people are being harsh on Terry.He has lost pace but still is a great defender imo.

you don't even watch Arsenal, how would you know ?

by Travis_RM_91 Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:42 am

RealGunner wrote:
Surag wrote:Vermaelen another massively overrated Arsenal player.Maybe cuz of his ball playing skills and knack of scoring goals.

But defensively he is nowhere near world class.

And people are being harsh on Terry.He has lost pace but still is a great defender imo.

you don't even watch Arsenal, how would you know ?

Some you Arsenal fans absolutely love to bash Pepe when you never watch Real Madrid..

I watch Arsenal and I say he's nowhere near as good DEFENSIVELY as the other players on the list.

by RealGunner Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:58 am

That question wasn't for you.

Anyhow, Please explain why he isnt good defensively.

by The Franchise Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:06 am

To say Vermalen is "nowhere near" Pepe and Terry is utterly laughable.

You can say those 2 are better if you like (I am not sure I would) but to claim they are nowhere near is plain silly.

by Travis_RM_91 Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:09 am

The Franchise wrote:To say Vermalen is "nowhere near" Pepe and Terry is utterly laughable.

You can say those 2 are better if you like (I am not sure I would) but to claim they are nowhere near is plain silly.

Talking in terms of defending, he isn't, even if Vermaelens ball playing and technical skills are way better. However, trying to plead with a Barcelona fan that treading on someones hand doesn't mean they aren't a good defender is a thankless task, so I'm gonna move on.

by The Franchise Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:45 am

Who cares about Pepe treading on someones hand? Did I mention it? Trying to get your excuses in early I see.

Verm isnt far off either of those 2 defensively at all, shut your hyperpole.

Terry has the turning speed of a truck and would struggle to beat a sloth in a race. Early in the season when Chelsea played high line he was brutally exposed. He gets players running in behind him all the time.

Pepe has the mental capacity of a retard and struggles to go any length of time without making an error or hacking someone down. Fouls way to much and if his mind was even half his physique he would be very good, but it isnt, so he is always a liability waiting to happen.

Dont make out like these guys are superstars without flaws, they clearly have them.

Verm is as good if not better in the air, is great coming out from the back to pressure and is great at last ditch blocks or tackles. His only real flaw is he comes out a bit too aggresively and the ball can be played in behind him.

They all have some flaws, they are very much on a similar level regardless of your hype.

by Le Samourai Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:48 am

Pepe dosen't foul alot at all.........

by Travis_RM_91 Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:55 am

A Real Madrid fan unable to defend his own key player from a Barca fan, plastic properties on full display.

You say Pepe has no mental capacity just because of a few unkind incidents. If he truly had no mental capacity then he'd make errors left right and centre, he doesn't, and he is far more defensively capable than Vermaelen.

Terry is also better, his positioning, experience and ability to lead a backline. I hate Terry, but he is better than Vermaelen as a defender.

by Lex Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:03 am

You know, strict discipline is as big a part of a defender's make-up as.....whatever it is you think makes everyone a better defender than Vermaelen and Pepe's disciplinary record is utter trash. The guy is a psycho. Mentally unstable.

by Ganso Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:03 am

this travis guy has written so much fail lmao

as i said,i stopped trying to discuss when he put a question mark after barzagli and loled at howedes

by Travis_RM_91 Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:25 am

Lex wrote:You know, strict discipline is as big a part of a defender's make-up as.....whatever it is you think makes everyone a better defender than Vermaelen and Pepe's disciplinary record is utter trash. The guy is a psycho. Mentally unstable.

You watch Pepe how many times a year? 40? 50? or just 4 games vs Barcelona?

Vermealens discipline with regards to positioning, wandering and keeping a solid place in the line leaves a lot to be desired. Forget Pepe, Chiellini and Thiago have been completely insulted by being placed on a list with Vermaelen lol.

by Lex Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:29 am

You love to contradict yourself, don't you

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