OFFTOPIC: Copa America 2011

Batista is playing with fire here.....If we don't play good in the next match we will face the very real possibility of losing out in the group stage. After River's relegation, this would just add more fuel to a very bright fire. However, Batista would deserve it considering the defenders who he called up are so bad that he has to play 3 DMs.
I feel sorry for messi the most. Not only he is missing out on another cup because of bad coaching, but he will probably be criticized even more in Argentina.

Shini why do you keep saying it's 3 DMs? It's 1 DM and 2 CMs, with one of the CMs being a player who usually players DM but his responsibilities in the NT are different.

Also it'd be hard for Argentina to miss out. Of the 12 teams, 8 make them into the next round. Argentina has to merely not be last in the group and not be the worst 3rd placed team to make it.

Well you are right but the point of me saying that is to emphasize the lack of a real attacking midfielder to link mid to forward line.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:You don't understand the context of Grondona's comments, JD. Messi gets ridiculous amounts of criticism in Argentina because he is not able to do with the Nt what he can do with Barca. Thus, in that comment Grondona is actually shielding Messi from even more added pressure.

I see. In that case it's okay alfred but he could have worded it differently. In this way the other players will feel unfairly blamed and could see this as a favoritism towards Messi which is just not good for team spirit.

shinigami99 wrote:Batista is playing with fire here.....If we don't play good in the next match we will face the very real possibility of losing out in the group stage. After River's relegation, this would just add more fuel to a very bright fire. However, Batista would deserve it considering the defenders who he called up are so bad that he has to play 3 DMs.
I feel sorry for messi the most. Not only he is missing out on another cup because of bad coaching, but he will probably be criticized even more in Argentina.

1. As alfred said we won't go out. See Argentina have often started brightly and fizzed out at the end. (e.g. WC 2010, Copa America 2007). This time we have started slowly. So if we end up winning it then all's well that end's well. I say keep believing.

2. Batista called up bad defenders? Not disagreeing but would like to know from you which seven or eight defenders would you call up. As far as I understand Argentina really lack quality defenders and goal keepers.

3. You say we should play one more attacking midfielder. Again not disagreeing but I can see some sense in what Batista is doing. He does not think Pastore is ready to handle such a complex role and there is hardly anyone else worth considering. Cambiasso having aged and not in good form means that the defense will become even more vulnerable if Pastore is played in midfield.

4. Not saying he shouldn't give Pastore a try but I empathize with Batista's line of thinking as well. Batista seems to be very unfairly criticized in my eyes. Considering how well he has done in one year and his past achievement in winning Olympics 2008 I would say he deserves more time and freedom to do things his way before we pass verdict on him.

5. Yes I too feel really bad for Messi. If we don't win the tournament most of the blame will very unjustly be placed at his door.

One of the things I find worrying is that the one guy who can link up the midfield with the attack - Pastore - seems to have fallen from Batista's consideration. Whereas before I thought he'd be used constantly as a backup midfielders, he was not even featured in the Albania friendly where a lot of people got minutes. So a lot of us are hoping that if another game like Bolivia comes along Batista will introduce Pastore to smooth things up but that is starting to look unlikely.

Cambiasso is apparently not ready to play 90 minutes yet. He exited at half-time and Di Maria came in, but this involved changing from a 4-3-3 into a 4-2-3-1. I wonder if Cambiasso will play full time against Colombia, and if not who will come in for him.

messixaviesta wrote:I see. In that case it's okay alfred but he could have worded it differently. In this way the other players will feel unfairly blamed and could see this as a favoritism towards Messi which is just not good for team spirit.

I understand your concerns, but it was right to say in my opinion. He's just stating that everyone had a bad game, and people should not expect Messi to shine in such games. As far as Messi getting star treatment, well, he's the star. I'm sure the other players will understand.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
Cambiasso is apparently not ready to play 90 minutes yet. He exited at half-time and Di Maria came in, but this involved changing from a 4-3-3 into a 4-2-3-1. I wonder if Cambiasso will play full time against Colombia, and if not who will come in for him.

Good point. Changing the formation to 4-2-3-1 made it terrible for Messi to play his normal game. If he has to switch to a 4-2-3-1 then he has to move Messi to the right and bring on Pastore. Otherwise he cannot bring on another winger or forward since that will badly disrupt Messi's game. None of the other forwards are capable of playing as a number 10 either. Messi can do it better than the others but it ruins his normal game and most importantly his goal scoring possibilities.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:I understand your concerns, but it was right to say in my opinion. He's just stating that everyone had a bad game, and people should not expect Messi to shine in such games. As far as Messi getting star treatment, well, he's the star. I'm sure the other players will understand.

That perhaps makes some sense but I am not totally convinced. :!:

I had a short exchange of tweets with Goal.com's Clark Whitney. He said something that I also strongly agree with.

"Pastore is no Iniesta in either class or function. Arg desperately need a #8-type - much like at the 2010 WC"

So considering that very carefully I see that we have a real conundrum in terms of our formation.

1. If we use a 4-3-3 then we don't really have the number 8 for it. The current midfield is too static. If we use Pastore then he may find it difficult to do this role properly and we also become more defensively vulnerable.

2. If we use a 4-2-3-1 then it will be ideal for Pastore. However Messi can then no longer play as the false number 9 but will have to shift to the right. We will have to use a traditional CF like Higuain. Angel Di Maria or even Lavezzi can be on the left. Aguero and Tevez can be super subs or they can even play Higuain's CF role. This is far from perfect though. Would Cambiasso with his age and injury problems be able to be the main DM? If he can then we can move Mascherano to defense. Otherwise he will have to be dropped. This formation will suit Banega as a deep lying CM in a Xabi Alonso type of role with Gago as his understudy. However this formation will limit Messi's influence on the game to an extent. Still we can at least use the Messi of 2009 if not the Messi of 2011. All things considered this might just be our best bet.

messixaviesta wrote:I had a short exchange of tweets with Goal.com's Clark Whitney. He said something that I also strongly agree with.

"Pastore is no Iniesta in either class or function. Arg desperately need a #8-type - much like at the 2010 WC"

So considering that very carefully I see that we have a real conundrum in terms of our formation.

1. If we use a 4-3-3 then we don't really have the number 8 for it. The current midfield is too static. If we use Pastore then he may find it difficult to do this role properly and we also become more defensively vulnerable.

2. If we use a 4-2-3-1 then it will be ideal for Pastore. However Messi can then no longer play as the false number 9 but will have to shift to the right. We will have to use a traditional CF like Higuain. Angel Di Maria or even Lavezzi can be on the left. Aguero and Tevez can be super subs or they can even play Higuain's CF role. This is far from perfect though. Would Cambiasso with his age and injury problems be able to be the main DM? If he can then we can move Mascherano to defense. Otherwise he will have to be dropped. This formation will suit Banega as a deep lying CM in a Xabi Alonso type of role with Gago as his understudy. However this formation will limit Messi's influence on the game to an extent. Still we can at least use the Messi of 2009 if not the Messi of 2011. All things considered this might just be our best bet.

Well to be honest, Argentina cant be picky. They dont have a number 8, Lucho isnt here.

Pastore is the best option there is. He doesnt have to be Iniesta, but what Argentina need is a better link from midfield deep to the final 1/3.

When I was talking to a few Chelsea fans about Pastore I warned that it was important to not play him on the wing but also to not play him too deep either, due to his tendency to lose possession from inexperience when he either tries to do too much or lacks a bit of awareness. With such a rugged midfield potentially lined up around him, this may seem to be less of a concern, however against teams with an effective counter attacking system it may become a real danger. Pastore will naturally track back to defend and be in possession deeper, however the majority of his touches need to be around the edge of the box for him to show his talents. Ten or twenty yards may be the only concern, however given how little faith I have in Argentina's coach I do believe it would be an issue to consider.

With Cambiaso, Banega and Mascherano they look like Man City....

Romero
Zanetti - MASCHERANO - Milito/Burdiso - Rojo
- - - - - - - Banega - Cambiaso - Pastore
- - - - - - - Aguero - Messi - Dive Maria

Recent Batista quotes:
"The only change against Colombia will be Zabaleta for Rojo, and Zanetti moving to the left. These changes are due to experience."

"It worried me that we didn't play the way we were playing up to now."

"If we don't play well against Colombia, then we'll make some changes."

I actually wouldn't be opposed to Gago for Cambiasso. Certainly a variant I haven't considered much before, but he would do more than Cuchu in terms of distribution while easing the task on Banega.

Batista SUCKS!!

Messi plays again as a playmaker behind the Tevez,Aguero & Higuain!! AND PASTORE stays on the Bench WHYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!

Give Pastore a Chance!!


FLOPS:

1- Batitsta
.
.
.
.
10000- G.Milito & Burdisso!!

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one more thing: Romero was the reason why argentina didn't lose tonight!!

Romero = Class!!

--------------

Aguero should Start! Lavezzi on the bench..

i would like to see this line-up vs costa rica

Aguero - Higuain/Tevez - Messi

------------- Pastore---------------

Cambiasso----------Banega


Zanetti - Burdisso - Masch - Zabaleta

---------------Romero------------------

Batista's post-game remarks

"Maybe we're missing a target man"

"Perhaps Pastore will play with Messi but I don't like making many changes"

"The game against Costa Rica is a final"

Well, I was going to type on about how Argentina's forwards are too selfish (and, frankly, not smart nor strict enough) to ever emulate Villa and Pedro, but the truth is Argentina have trouble all over the field.
The lack of any creative spark in the midfield is clear to see, but also surprising is, for a team that plays three defensive-midfielders, they also have serious trouble there - particularly in dealing with counter-attacks.

I've been hearing about how Messi's getting no love from the Argentine press, and of how his 'Catalan identity' has been brought up once or twice ... anyone in Argentina care to shed some light on this situation?

Is it that they want more from him, or is it that he's just not a popular man (as in, he has no place being compared to Maradona) ?

Messi never played in Argentina so consequently people here never really got to see his magic before he moved on to Barcelona. As a result he has no 'fans' here as someone like Tevez, who played in one of the best Boca sides of all times and thus is immensely popular, or Aguero does.

Couple this with the fact that he has yet to 'show up' for the national team and this adds pressure for him because the responsibilities and expectations are much bigger. Messi at Barca is a friend amongst many, and looks that way in the pitch. In Argentina, he just looks uncomfortable.

This causes idiots to challenge him whenever they can. Some people claim he doesn't know the anthem, because he doesn't sing it, and this apparently he took pretty personally.

To be fair, it's better now than it was a few years ago. But there are still people that ask you if you're "pro-messi or anti-messi"

The Franchise wrote:
Well to be honest, Argentina cant be picky. They dont have a number 8, Lucho isnt here.

Pastore is the best option there is. He doesnt have to be Iniesta, but what Argentina need is a better link from midfield deep to the final 1/3.

Very fair points. Have you ever been able to guess why Lucho is never called?

dostoevsky wrote:When I was talking to a few Chelsea fans about Pastore I warned that it was important to not play him on the wing but also to not play him too deep either, due to his tendency to lose possession from inexperience when he either tries to do too much or lacks a bit of awareness. With such a rugged midfield potentially lined up around him, this may seem to be less of a concern, however against teams with an effective counter attacking system it may become a real danger. Pastore will naturally track back to defend and be in possession deeper, however the majority of his touches need to be around the edge of the box for him to show his talents. Ten or twenty yards may be the only concern, however given how little faith I have in Argentina's coach I do believe it would be an issue to consider.

An excellent post. Agree with every word before the last sentence.

Since you don't like what the coach is doing please elaborate what formation and first team lineup you would use for Argentina.

Aristotle Onassis wrote:Well, I was going to type on about how Argentina's forwards are too selfish (and, frankly, not smart nor strict enough) to ever emulate Villa and Pedro, but the truth is Argentina have trouble all over the field.
The lack of any creative spark in the midfield is clear to see, but also surprising is, for a team that plays three defensive-midfielders, they also have serious trouble there - particularly in dealing with counter-attacks.

I've been hearing about how Messi's getting no love from the Argentine press, and of how his 'Catalan identity' has been brought up once or twice ... anyone in Argentina care to shed some light on this situation?

Is it that they want more from him, or is it that he's just not a popular man (as in, he has no place being compared to Maradona) ?

Very good post man.

1. Seriously you have probably said what could have been said about the forwards. The worst part was when Messi, Aguero, Tevez and Higuain were together on the pitch. It was sheer madness. Tevez and Aguero have very little idea how to play on the wings. Messi is not a number 10 and was easily crowded out. How was he to dribble across lines after lines of defenders with no support? Higuain did try to play like a number 9 but saw very little of the ball. There was zero chemistry between them. It was jarring to watch four players of such talent make such a nuisance of themselves.

2. See alfred has already told you that one reason Messi is not liked that much is because he left Argentina at a very young age and people never got to see him play at his best for one of the local clubs. The second reason is even more important. Messi suffers from what I call the 'Sachin Tendulkar' complex. Since he is so much beyond everyone else he is expected to work magic all the time no matter what the circumstances. The slightest failure is greeted with criticism and jeers. This is what happens when the world's best player plays for an underachieving team. People expect him to win everything for them and just forget to appreciate how lucky they are that he is their compatriot. India for years underachieved in cricket and many of us including yours truly ( ) blamed Sachin. Similarly Argentina are the most underachieving top team in football and the easiest reaction from people is to blame it all on Messi. I can really empathize with Messi because for years I have seen what I/we used to do to Tendulkar.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:
Couple this with the fact that he has yet to 'show up' for the national team

alfred, I hope you are being sarcastic here since you are the last person from whom I can expect to hear this. Here's a short checklist.

1. Won Olympics 2008 - skinned Brazil single handedly in the all important semi final against Brazil and then laid on the assist for Di Maria in the final.

2. WC 2010 - Argentina's best player and one of the top ten players of the tournament. This in spite of a terrible formation and tactics in which he also had to play in an unfamiliar role of an AM behind two strikers.

3. Since Batista took over - Has simply excelled in every single friendly match almost every time being the best player on the pitch.

Ironically his worst performances have been these first two matches at Copa America 2011.

A few thoughts that I must share and a few questions that I must ask.

1. About all this blame on Sergio Batista. Is it fair? Till now I have not come across one truly convincing formation and lineup from anyone. What about all his past achievements? This man won Olympics 2008 and showed the world how Riquelme and Messi can play together without Riquelme slowing down Messi's game. Since taking over his side have done very well in almost every match leaving aside the matches where they played with a second string. It's only in the Copa that things are not working. Does he not deserve more time and consideration?

2. Tell me which national team coach gets anything other than criticism. Let's take the cases of the three top coaches from WC 2010. In spite of winning the trophy Vicente Del Bosque was and is criticized for being too defensive and negative by playing Busquets and X.Alonso together. In spite of taking Netherlands surprisingly to the final Bert van Marwijk is criticized for using negative and violent tactics with van Bommel and De Jong. As for the coach of the impressive German team Joachim Low, he is said to be not enough of a winner and is blamed for having undermined Michael Ballack. After all what are these guys supposed to do? It's not all the time possible to win, play well and please everyone and do all this at the same time.

3. Now after that rant comes my most important question. Since Sergio Batista took over Argentina has been playing very well. So what do you all think is different now that things are not working? Let me try to give my own ideas from what I can remember. Initially Messi used to be on the right and a traditional number 9 was played. Later Batista decided Messi would be the false number 9 but even that was working well. However Angel Di Maria was an omnipresent. Maybe playing him instead of Tevez can help us to an extent. Also Gago used to be play instead of Cambiasso. Since he is better on the ball it helped to keep possession and find important passes better than we are doing now. Anything else you all can think of that has changed for the worse?

messixaviesta wrote:

The Franchise wrote:
Well to be honest, Argentina cant be picky. They dont have a number 8, Lucho isnt here.

Pastore is the best option there is. He doesnt have to be Iniesta, but what Argentina need is a better link from midfield deep to the final 1/3.

Very fair points. Have you ever been able to guess why Lucho is never called?

Just isnt fancied I guess, he is 30 now, perhaps just isnt seen a neded.

Though how anyone can see Gago as needed and Lucho not, I dont quite understand.

BarrileteCosmico wrote:Batista's post-game remarks

"Maybe we're missing a target man"

"Perhaps Pastore will play with Messi but I don't like making many changes"

"The game against Costa Rica is a final"

What i gather from that is a few things....


What i gather from those words anyway.