The best finisher

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Post by BarcaKizz Wed 14 Mar - 16:14

Sometimes difficult to seperate the creation of chance for yourself and your ability to finish that chance. Messi is clearly the best at the first of these and his finishing is very well adapted to finishing his chances. His chips and 1v1 finishes are brilliant.

Is he the best finisher though? Higuain, Cavani and Ronaldo are also very highly rated by me. Statements like "this player by some distance" I don't have time for.

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Post by The Franchise Wed 14 Mar - 16:35

I dont think 1 v 1 and tap in rate are the best indicators of finishing.

Difficulty of finishing is much more important, nobody tops Messi at that.
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Post by rwo power Wed 14 Mar - 16:38

Imo it is not the difficulty of finishing that should count, but the efficiency. For me number of goals vs number of attempts is the most relevant thing. After all, a goal after dribbling 9 players to death doesn't count more than a tap in on the score sheet.
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Post by The Franchise Wed 14 Mar - 16:47

Its not about counting more, but being the best finisher doesnt mean much if you can only finish tap ins..its not exactly a title to be proud of.

If you can finish from harder positions and do so consistently, then that gives you an advantage on the pitch.

Anyone can score a tap in once they get in the positon, not everyone can score a difficult chance.

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Post by rwo power Wed 14 Mar - 16:50

If you have an advantage that way, it should be countable in the number of goals per attempt. If it doesn't then it is just fruitless effort, IMO.
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Post by BarcaKizz Wed 14 Mar - 16:58

What if you play for a top team and your team sets up 50 tap-ins for you and you finish 48. Incredibly efficient. Does it make you automatically better than someone who scores 20/50 at a small club where his chances are from a wider range of difficult situations?

You can't disregard tap-ins because mastering easy finishes is important, but it can't be used alone as evidence that you're a better finisher.
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Post by The Franchise Wed 14 Mar - 17:05

rwo power wrote:If you have an advantage that way, it should be countable in the number of goals per attempt. If it doesn't then it is just fruitless effort, IMO.

Messi...........

This kind of discussion is exactly why I hate stats. People are lazy, instead of thinking about the game, its easier to just throw out some stats without real thought.



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Post by The Franchise Wed 14 Mar - 17:07

Look, noone should ever miss a tap in...ever.

Someone scoring alot of them tells you about the service they get and to a lesser extent the quality of your runs.

Not your finishing ability.

Put someone who can only score tap ins in a team that doesnt create, they score less.

Put someone who can score difficult chances, they can do it anywhere.

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Post by Le Samourai Wed 14 Mar - 17:10

So Dani you rate Higuain higher than Gomez?

Because he is certainly a more versatile finisher , and the difficulty of most of his chances are pretty high.

What about a guy like Benz who produces amazing finishes but fluffs tap ins?

I think you need to make an overall assesment really, not just based on stats, but you need to give equal value to all variants of finishing.
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Post by The Franchise Wed 14 Mar - 17:20

Its unfair, I only seen Gomez what....15 games max this season.

But based on what I seen, yeah, I think so.

Benzema....misses too many easier ones. He gets credit for putting away some hard ones, but fluffs a couple more than you would expect.
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Post by rwo power Wed 14 Mar - 17:22

The Franchise wrote:Put someone who can score difficult chances, they can do it anywhere.
Well, in the Argentine NT, Messi doesn't exactly look like the best finisher, wouldn't you say? What do you make of that then? And I'm afraid, in football it is the numbers that count in the end, as much as your romantic stance might want to deny it.


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Post by The Franchise Wed 14 Mar - 17:29

Messi wasnt getting "finishes" for Argentina...he was shooting from outside the box...look at his shots in the tournament, most of them out of the box. Much, clear cut chances.


Surprise surprise, when that changes (more recently) he is scoring goals.

Stop looking at stats and starting watching games, really watching them. I strongly advice you that.

And no, numbers do not count in the end....silly, lazy and thank godness the only coaches who think like this are Sam Alladyce and the like.

I have a question, what do you think Zidane as a player?
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Post by rwo power Wed 14 Mar - 17:44

When you talk about "finishing" it IS about the numbers. If you don't score you haven't finished.

Zidane has a completely different job description, so he isn't to be judged about his finishing skills.
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Post by The Franchise Wed 14 Mar - 17:48

Wrong. Again.

And im not talking about Zidane finishing..im talking about Zidane as an overall player.

You seem very high on numbers, you surely cant rate him?
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Post by Sushi Master Wed 14 Mar - 17:48

Half of Gómez' goals are served on a silver plate due to Ribéry or Kroos passes, TBH.

Does not mean it's at all easy to score as much as him. Yes, he scores tap ins but he also has his pretty volleys and top corner rockets. He scores simple yet effective goals. Higuain is a good finisher... but still not Gómez level, at least in current form.

Messi shouldn't count... He's a freak.

And no, RWO, he's not a bad finisher for Argentina. Hell, Messi plays near CM for Argentina most of the time, deep as hell and naturally finds it harder to score as much as in Barca where he has a lot of freedom.
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Post by Rebaño Sagrado Wed 14 Mar - 17:49

What is a natural finisher? :vagi:
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Post by The Franchise Wed 14 Mar - 17:56

Sushi, would you say Gomez misses more easy chances than Higuain?
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Post by rwo power Wed 14 Mar - 17:59

The Franchise wrote:Wrong. Again.
What exactly is wrong? Is finishing for you some nice dribbling run that ends in a shot, but no goal?

The Franchise wrote:And im not talking about Zidane finishing..im talking about Zidane as an overall player.
This thread is about the best finisher, so what has Zidane to do with it?

Sushi Master wrote:And no, RWO, he's not a bad finisher for Argentina. Hell, Messi plays near CM for Argentina most of the time, deep as hell and naturally finds it harder to score as much as in Barca where he has a lot of freedom.
I was only pointing out that the claim "Put someone who can score difficult chances, they can do it anywhere." doesn't fully hold true when looking at Messi in the NT. If that claim would hold true, the finishing should be the same, no matter where exactly he is deployed.

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Post by Le Samourai Wed 14 Mar - 18:01

I'd say Yes but I've caught Gomez on some cold nights.But here's an interesting stat Crimson plucked that's relevant

Gonzalo Higuain has a 34% chance of scoring every time he shoots. (Ronaldo 18%, RVP 20%, Benzema 21%, Messi 22%, Gomez 24%)
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Post by Pedram Wed 14 Mar - 18:01

I'm sure Gomez's efficiency is much lower than Higuain's. from games i've seen from him he miss a lot of easy chances.
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Post by Sushi Master Wed 14 Mar - 18:05

The Franchise wrote:Sushi, would you say Gomez misses more easy chances than Higuain?
In the general dip of form that Bayern had, he missed plenty of easy, chances, sure. But I'd write that down as an anomaly and the shitty form was teamwide. Probably a confidence issue.

Gómez in form can score from anywhere and against anyone. He has an excelent CL scoring ratio, against big and small teams. This is a big difference from Higuain who is still not consistently proven at the top level.

I like Higuain, but as a finisher Gómez is better and more consistent.
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Post by Le Samourai Wed 14 Mar - 18:08

Really? Gomez strikes me as a streaky type.

Higuain is far from inconsistent though.......one of the more consistent guys I've seen.
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Post by The Franchise Wed 14 Mar - 18:10

rwo, you know very well thats not what im saying. I never thought you was one who would avoid the obvious like this.


Zidane has nothing to do with it, however your surely not too good to answer a simple question are you?

No, Messi's finishing should not be the same regardless of where he is deployed...because in different positions you get different quality of chances.

This is the problem with stats. You look at it like its the be all and end all, but its very easy to come up with counters for all these stats which render them useless.

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Post by The Franchise Wed 14 Mar - 18:13

Le Samourai wrote:I'd say Yes but I've caught Gomez on some cold nights.But here's an interesting stat Crimson plucked that's relevant

Gonzalo Higuain has a 34% chance of scoring every time he shoots. (Ronaldo 18%, RVP 20%, Benzema 21%, Messi 22%, Gomez 24%)

All this really means is Higuain shoots easier chances generally speaking.

I bet Higuain shoots the least shots too..which further confirms that.

He doesnt shoot many, because he takes easier ones and turns down/isnt in the positin for harder ones.



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Post by rwo power Wed 14 Mar - 18:14

The Franchise wrote:rwo, you know very well thats not what im saying. I never thought you was one who would avoid the obvious like this.

Zidane has nothing to do with it, however your surely not too good to answer a simple question are you?
As I mentioned before, Zidane has a different job description, so quantifying him by goals is not adequate. And frankly, I question your motives for posing that question in this thread as I assume you would like to dissect any answer I give to discredit my reasoning, and I'm not willing to give you an easy point of attack like that Very Happy


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Post by The Franchise Wed 14 Mar - 18:15

Intresting Sushi.

This is the thing, I dont think anyone here bar Bayern fans/German league fans can really talk about Gomez.

Generally speaking, they dont watch him week in and week out like they do their own players/players in their own league.

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