Old Men's Thread: The official Bill, Shaven & Sportsczy thread

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Post by Guest Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:54 pm

futbol_bill wrote:
Crimson wrote:Hugo Sanchez the master of one touch goals

The titles we won under Hugo Sanchez leading the line puts him well in front of both Ronaldo's

Unfortunately for us, as good as R9 was he did not really help us win too much.

Hugo Sanchez helped us win a boat load of trophies.

R7 so far has only helped us win one.

So until R7 hauls the trophies that Hugo has for us then he will forever be behind him no matter the goals he scores.

For those that do not know, Hugo's trophy haul at Real Madrid:

5 La Liga (Real Madrid, seasons 1985-86, 1986–87, 1987–88, 1988–89 and 1989–90).
1 Copas del Rey (Real Madrid 1989).
3 Supercopas de España (Real Madrid 1988, 1989 and 1990).

Now look up Di Stefano!!!!!

I know all about Di Stefano Razz

But I was more talking about the modern game

And it's hard to say what position Di Stefano played, all the games I have watched of his, he played everywhere, you could almost see him in every position throughout a match. He was a striker, an attacking midfielder and a defensive midfielder in one.

Very much unlike Hugo, R9 or R7 lol

Puskas even though he played as a inside-left is more comparable but even that would be harsh.

Trying to compare players in the modern game to anyone in that team is impossible

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Post by Babun Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:01 pm

Crimson wrote:
futbol_bill wrote:
Crimson wrote:Hugo Sanchez the master of one touch goals

The titles we won under Hugo Sanchez leading the line puts him well in front of both Ronaldo's

Unfortunately for us, as good as R9 was he did not really help us win too much.

Hugo Sanchez helped us win a boat load of trophies.

R7 so far has only helped us win one.

So until R7 hauls the trophies that Hugo has for us then he will forever be behind him no matter the goals he scores.

For those that do not know, Hugo's trophy haul at Real Madrid:

5 La Liga (Real Madrid, seasons 1985-86, 1986–87, 1987–88, 1988–89 and 1989–90).
1 Copas del Rey (Real Madrid 1989).
3 Supercopas de España (Real Madrid 1988, 1989 and 1990).

Now look up Di Stefano!!!!!

I know all about Di Stefano Razz

But I was more talking about the modern game

And it's hard to say what position Di Stefano played, all the games I have watched of his, he played everywhere, you could almost see him in every position throughout a match. He was a striker, an attacking midfielder and a defensive midfielder in one.

Very much unlike Hugo, R9 or R7 lol

Puskas even though he played as a inside-left is more comparable but even that would be harsh.

Trying to compare players in the modern game to anyone in that team is impossible
IMO, no matter in what age, players who play everywhere are hardest to mark Very Happy It's a trait for greatness Very Happy
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Post by futbol_bill Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:13 pm

[quote="Crimson
I know all about Di Stefano Razz

But I was more talking about the modern game

And it's hard to say what position Di Stefano played, all the games I have watched of his, he played everywhere, you could almost see him in every position throughout a match. He was a striker, an attacking midfielder and a defensive midfielder in one.

Very much unlike Hugo, R9 or R7 lol

Puskas even though he played as a inside-left is more comparable but even that would be harsh.

Trying to compare players in the modern game to anyone in that team is impossible[/quote]

We were talking about impact players. Noone has had more of an impact on Madrid than Di Stefano. Whether it's games that I watched or games that you babies are watching, it still the same criteria as to huge impact on games. Look at the comments re being critical of CR9, R9 and even of Sanchez (he didn't win anything with NT, he need to be set-up, whereas others could do it all by themselves), BUT noone ever had anything negative to say about Di Stefano. I actually rate him higher than Pele and Maradonna (Primadonna). .....

But back to Sportczy thread, it is Di Stafano followed by Sanchez followed by CR7 and then R9. I would likely say followed by Zidane after that.
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Post by guest7 Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:16 pm

I dunno why you guys see R9 so high. I see Zidane waaay above R9 for Madrid.
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Post by futbol_bill Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:22 pm

omarish wrote:I dunno why you guys see R9 so high. I see Zidane waaay above R9 for Madrid.

Zidane is up there, but all of the others had far more goals. R9 had 3 fantastic goal scoring seasons here before he got fat.
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Post by Guest Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:14 pm

Zidane had a much bigger impact than R9 and CR7... much, much bigger.

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Post by guest7 Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:30 pm

sportsczy wrote:Zidane had a much bigger impact than R9 and CR7... much, much bigger.

I agree, his impact took us to the final in 2003
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Post by Doc Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:57 am

You guys aren't that old though. Except futbol bill, he's old...
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Post by the xcx Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:08 am

Doc wrote:You guys aren't that old though. Except futbol bill, he's old...
How old exactly?
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Post by LeSwagg James Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:11 am

Doc wrote:You guys aren't that old though. Except futbol bill, he's old...

How can anybody in this forum know how old another member is? If you don't know them personally you wouldn't have a clue.. Anybody could lie.. I could of said I'm 40
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Post by Guest Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:28 am

omarish wrote:
sportsczy wrote:Zidane had a much bigger impact than R9 and CR7... much, much bigger.

I agree, his impact took us to the final in 2003

We won the CL, La Liga and the the intercontinental cup with him here. But besides the trophies... He actually made you dream with his play. And it was all about the passing, movement and dribbling. I'll always remember this Beckham quote after he left Madrid regarding Zidane: "we were all wc players. But we all realized quickly that Zidane was just better than all of us. So we tried to get him the ball as quickly as we could."

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Post by Guest Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:04 am

The interesting thing is that everyone over-rates the current players and forget the historic greats. It's natural since the avg age here is 22.

A few things to keep in mind... Sanchez an outrageously efficient striker. Think Gomez but with better speed and a bit more flair. He literally never missed.

Everyone talks about Zidane as one of the greatest creative attacking mids and rightfully so. But he couldn't even sniff Platini shoes. He was, and remains, the greatest game general I have ever seen. He controlled everything and dominated for 4 years. Imagine being a AM and winning the Serie A goalscoring title three years in a row.. And goals were not even your top strength. Serie A was clearly the top league in the world too back then.

Maradona actually gets his due, so I won't discuss him.

You guys remember Batistuta? My god he was good. Romario was insane too. Van Basten, etc.

My point is that you should keep your perspective on current t players... Maybe a handful will be considered among the best ever.


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Post by Error Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:59 pm

I agree with you on that over rating current players and forgetting older ones.

Sanchez was indeed great although I really didn't follow Real Madrid back then. But another striker that most seems to forget is Ivan Zamorano. Everyone talks about Ronaldo, Raul, Owen, Morientes, Mijatovic, Sanchez but Zamorano is the one many seems to forget. He is forgotten just like Batistuta and Bierhoff.

But since we are talking about old good players then tell me sportsczy as a French, what's your opinion about Youri Djorkaeff? I don't see anyone talking about him but I always thought he was one of the most gifted French player during his time. To me he was a French version of Rui Costa.
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Post by Guest Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:16 pm

Youri was amazing. One of the truly best technical French midfielders of the past 25 years. Unfortunately for him, his prime occurred during the France NT dark years and political fiascos. By the time 1998 rolled around, he was 30 years old... and had a Zidane in front of him.

A bit of an ego guy and petulant, that cost him a bit too. But Monaco and Inter saw most of his best years.

He just had too many hugely talented players in front of him to truly get his shot with the France NT. And back in those days, you didn't have streaming video... you only got to watch what your tv/satellite/cable offered, which was nothing almost compared to today. So his club matches were only seen by a fraction of the people.

Ginola was another big talent who, with a few players that played in that 1993 Bulgaria game, never got a true shot at the NT.

When you think about it, the handling of the France NT has been mostly an utter disaster since the 80s. It's amazing that we actually won a few things lol.

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Post by Doc Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:30 pm

Swagg_Johnson wrote:
How can anybody in this forum know how old another member is? If you don't know them personally you wouldn't have a clue.. Anybody could lie.. I could of said I'm 40

Then I know not to believe anything you write then huh. Also, there is no need to lie about one's age. This isn't a porno site nor are there any girls to impress. Anyway, Shaven, Crimson and the Frenchman have stated their age already and I don't think those men would lie for that nonsense.
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Post by futbol_bill Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:10 pm

When I think of past greats, I think of countries and their success. That automatically leads you to Brasil, Argentina, Italy and Germany. I think we can all name greats from all of these countries. With Italy, it's a little more difficult since it was their team defense that led to many of their titles. I don't include France nor Spain nor Netherlands in this list as they have not had the same country success as the first 4 and in Spain's case, success is very recent. I like to think Spain will eventually be in that top list since I believe we have the best futbol factory in the world right now. We can name some French and Spanish superstars, but it isn't a huge list. Netherlands however is a different story. They did have the best european futbol factory for years but infighting prevented them from success. To me the best of their era was when they had Van Bastien, Gullit and Rijkaard.
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Post by shaven Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:47 pm

sportsczy wrote:Mature discussions only (either mature attitude on this thread or age). Ok kids... show us you can think without being hormonal lol.

First topic: Who is the bigger legend in Madrid so far, R9 or CR7?



if we are talking about being a legend

R9 of course, World Cup says it all plus the other achievements he have. i dont have to name them all.

cristiano is is a legend in a making, not a legend yet...

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Post by Guiltybystander Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:53 pm

I am secretly a 14-year old girl.
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Post by futbol_bill Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:28 pm

Guiltybystander wrote:I am secretly a 14-year old girl.

Come on, read the thread opening line. This is not a place for immaturity.
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Post by Guiltybystander Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:36 pm

futbol_bill wrote:
Guiltybystander wrote:I am secretly a 14-year old girl.

Come on, read the thread opening line. This is not a place for immaturity.

I do apologize, it was more a response to the guy mentioning that we could lie about our age.

And I think that the Netherlands should be included in the list of greatest national teams, although
as the underdog somewhat. We have lost three WC finals obviously, and in the top 10 of best players ever, I could argue for at least 3 Dutch players to be included.

Italy has revolutionized the game at some point, so has Brazil, etc. but the Netherlands have too, maybe even more profoundly. Ajax is essentially a representation of Dutch football, and I still want to argue that some Ajax teams (especially in the 90ies) was better than the current Barcelona team. No one can deny that without Cruyff, Spain as it is today would not exist, etc.

Lack of success somewhat ruins it though, indeed, for Holland. And the fact that the Netherlands have had bad generations, whereas for example Brazil and Germany have been consistently good.

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Post by guest7 Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:39 pm

Barcelonas playing style is taken right from Ajax. The style called "Total Football". It's no secret that Johan Cruyff is the mastermind behind it all, Pep is only doing the minor things but he is doing them good, but Cruyff is the core of Barcas today.
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Post by Guiltybystander Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:42 pm

omarish wrote:Barcelonas playing style is taken right from Ajax. The style called "Total Football". It's no secret that Johan Cruyff is the mastermind behind it all, Pep is only doing the minor things but he is doing them good, but Cruyff is the core of Barcas today.

Well yeah, that was my point. Barcelona hasn't mastered Total Football as Michels and Cruyff envisioned it though. Cruyff is back at Ajax, and wants to perfect it there again. I wonder what he can do, still. They have a great coach in Frank de Boer. Do not be surprised if we will see another dominant Ajax surfacing again. It's been too long.

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Post by Guest Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:44 pm

You guys need to remember that, until the 90s, clubs were only allowed to have 3 non-national players on a squad. Back then, there was no Europe. So it was country based. For players to move to abroad, they had to be absolute superstars. Imo, the Brazilian and Argentinian domestic leagues during that time were the most talented in the world from top to bottom.

Tier 1: Brazil and Argentina. Just a massive amount of talent produced. Other than the guys we all know, there's just a boatload of players that stayed in their countries who were insane.
Tier 2: Germany and Italy.
Tier 2.5: Netherlands.
Tier 3: Spain, England, France, Portugal

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Post by futbol_bill Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:00 pm

sportsczy wrote:You guys need to remember that, until the 90s, clubs were only allowed to have 3 non-national players on a squad. Back then, there was no Europe. So it was country based. For players to move to abroad, they had to be absolute superstars. Imo, the Brazilian and Argentinian domestic leagues during that time were the most talented in the world from top to bottom.

Tier 1: Brazil and Argentina. Just a massive amount of talent produced. Other than the guys we all know, there's just a boatload of players that stayed in their countries who were insane.
Tier 2: Germany and Italy.
Tier 2.5: Netherlands.
Tier 3: Spain, England, France, Portugal

I agree, but have a couple of comments. No doubt at all that Brasil and Argentina have produced more than anyone. I can't honestly remember that many from Italy. Although they had (have) great teams, they have not done it on individual effort. Their game is very much a team defense approach. I would list them where you have them as far as a country team, but not that high as far as producing star talent. I also don't see England nor Portugal at the same level as Spain and France (and probably I would list France ahead of Spain since their (our) success is so recent). Again I'm referring to producing star talent.

Re the earlier comment about Netherlands and Ajax, I agree that they and specifically Cruff introduced the style to Spain. It began with Barcelona, but I believe it has been refined even more in Spain. I've seen it all over Spain beginning as earlier as age 5. The development of kids is unbelieveable (in comparison to what existed just 10 or 15 years ago). In other words it not just the academies of Barcelona and Madrid (and other pro teams). It's a ground roots system now with the finishing touches being done by the pro academies. I truely believe that Spain is now a futbol factory and probably now producing more talent than even Brasil and Argentina
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Post by Doc Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:07 pm

While I wouldn't deny that Spain is producing more talent than they used to (you know, since you're actually in Spain), I don't think any country can produce as many quality players in abundance as Brasil does. To show you how insane Brasil is, they had to skip a "footballing generation" (Adriano, Kaka, Diego, Ronaldinho) and went with green horns like Pato, Neymar, Ganso, Lucas (Sao Paulo), Ramires and still look mightily dangerous.

But I would gladly admit Spain is not that far behind. May I ask how exactly did this take place. Was it inspired by Germany's youth revolution or just a really good crop of youngsters Spain has been blessed with?!
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Post by Guest Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:13 pm

France is the same way as Spain... I actually think that the football factory setup was initiated there and then followed by Spain. If France and Spain can maintain these academies, they will both have very good teams all the time. Problem with France is that we like to self destruct for whatever reason... But we always have a top shelf squad and, with the amount of youth being produced, that's not going to change.

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