Any Philosophers Here ?

Topic: [6] Assess: “Plato’s ‘ideal’ society is far from ideal; it unjustifiably uses propaganda and lies to perpetuate the rule of a privileged class, even insisting that genuine ‘justice’ is everyone keeping to his place!”

I have an essay on this, and part of my task is to have three paragraphs; an exegesis, a section of potential counter-arguments one could pose, and lastly, the response to these counter-arguments on behalf of Plato.

So for potential counter-arguements to this, this question already provides a criticism, namely that the city is not ideal because it uses lies/propaganda. My job is to develop that; that is, you need to give a reason why lying conflicts with the notion of an ideal city [in particular, why Plato's lie undermines his notion of the ideal city].

I have a few that I thought of:

--> The Noble Lie is a representation of the Caste System, similar to the one in India, except that this one is based on ability in a meritocracy, as opposed to class and wealth.

This one is kind of questionable and I would like verification: I was thinking that because Plato said that philosophers are lovers of wisdom and true knowledge as they seek truth as opposed to the majority who are lovers of sights and sounds, the lie itself are philosophers being hypocritical because they are spreading lies, while reinforcing the notion that philosophers are the only ones who can really know the truth, and perpetuating further the fact that the majority are too ignorant to understand it. This kind of seems elitist to me.

Any more anyone can think of ?

Possible Responses I think that Plato would give:

--> The Caste System is necessary because the ideal society is interdependent on every citizen, so if the Caste System was not in existence, there would not be productivity, and also, there would be infighting from people who think they should be higher than the others, etc.

Then for the last part. I was thinking Plato would say that it is precisely because the majority cannot understand the truth and see the Forms itself that they have to be persuaded by a lie in order to truly have society work. If they could understand the truth, then the rulers would gladly give it to them, but because they are unable to, this is the only way the ideal society and city will work.

How is this ?

I mean, I really am in the dark here. I would like some more feedback perhaps on the format and arguments and stuff I have listed, as well as hopefully getting some more arguments and what not.

Cheers.

Came up with this too:

Well now that I think about it, the Noble Lie is not really much of a "lie," at least, not in the conventional definition of the word.

Basically, it is an aid of explaining the Law of Specialization in a way which presents the knowledge of the Forms and the three-parts of the soul as absolute, that is, dictated by the Gods. The Law of Specialization states that all should do what they are best at, or what they are fit for, and this has to do with what part of the soul governs them; be it rational [ruler], spirited [auxiliaries], and appetitive [workers]. Because the natures of the majority and the three parts of the soul cannot be adequately grasped by the majority, the Noble Lie allows for it to take on [albeit, falsely] a divine form, and thus, it is accepted, rather than questioned based on this. It will also, in turn, lead to a lack of infighting or uprising.

I can use the example that my Professor used as well in my essay, when he said that when we go to a Doctor's office, we trust the Doctor's insight and although we may have some knowledge of what causes certain kinds of diseases, we do not have the full knowledge to be able to understand every aspect of it, and this is like this example. Essentially, Plato is trying to create a Doctor-Patient relationship in that the Doctor [ruling class] is trying to prescribe what is best for us [the majority] and rather than question the Doctor's knowledge or want to become a Doctor when you are not fit to do so, you accept it.

In some aspect, therefore, the Rulers have to be Doctors, and the Majority have to be Patients. In order to create such a relationship, the Noble Lie is needed in order for them to take the first step, that is, trust that the Rulers are Rulers for a reason, and as a result, have their best interest in mind.

Only thing I could think off is this.

Plato identifies the necessity of lying to maintain the caste system.

In truth, no society is free of some sort of caste system.

I do have plenty of thoughts on this JN, but I apologize because I am swamped by work this week.

Best of luck though.

P.S: I liked Plato's republic.

Ahh, that is very true. I think whether or not it is natural, one does indeed exist.

No sweat Spencer, thanks for the wishes of good luck.

Yes, the Republic was honestly quite the intriguing read.