Did R9 surpass Maradona and Pele?

Zealous wrote:Again everything you said there is subjective.

Like I said there are some who think those guys are already on that level.

Magricos wrote: Since when did R9 clean up everything at club level ?

Zealous wrote:Different people will like and rate different players differently.

I'd debate this with you but I'm a bit tired TBH. Maybe another time

As for where I would put Ronaldo, he'd be number 1 if it was based on being Rich, Handsome and Talented

Grande_Milano wrote:Imo, nobody has done the same impact as these both did:

Beckenbauer? Defender, sadly The best defender and a top 5 player of all time, he was the most creative player in a WC winning NT. He is better than R9. Was the Backbone of one of the greatest club sides of all time

Cruyff? Didnt win big (CL and WC) lol. No CL? He won 3 European cups (CL equivalent) and was one of the main proponents of a footballing style that revolutionised modern football. Without him, Michels would never have developed total football. Again, the best player in arguably THE greatest club side of all time and one of the most influential men in terms of tactics today.

Di Stefano? No international stage+era of Madrid dominance Influenced the entire history of historically, the most prestigious club in world football, He is the best footballer of his generation and is again, part of the most successful club teams of all time. The 5 Cl in a row Madrid. He was the first total footballer. I have seen a few of his matches and he could do everything, attack defend and control. He was playing total football before it even was proposed. Ronaldo is not in his league. No Wc in the 40s and he declared himself for spain like in the late 50s. So again, out of his hands really.
Garrincha? Good case, 1962 was his win, not Pele's, but Pele left a bigger legacy. The media might keep logging Pele down our throats, but trust me on this, pele is not seen as the greatest Brazilian by Brazilians themselves, Godincha is. He is the greatest Brazilaian player Pele living a bigger legacy is down to the way that there was a media explosion around his time. Media hype doesnt make you the best does it? Xavi is the ebst Cm but it took Spain winning the Euros for him to be begrudgingly accepted, now the media re writing eulogies about him..
Van Basten? Injuries+only Euro lol, great player but no, saw most of his career. Could have ben like R9 but injuries curtailed him...SADPlatini? Again, Euro, but not WC...The Xavi of the 80s, great player but just a shade below pele level. Muller? Cant really say he did alone (Maradona) or stood out in his team (Pele) The greatest pure striker of all time. No question. Call R9 what you want but Muller scored MORE and also WHEN IT MATTERED! scored in the WC final that defeated the greatest team to never win the WC, scored in the euro final, scored in 2 out of 3 Cl finals. No competition here really. His statistics are ridiculous. As a striker, he is on his own.



And here we come to Ronaldo, despite all injuries, the best in every club he played, a leader in 98 and 2002 (similar to Maradona-one lost and one won final), cleaned up everything on club level, pesonal awards and stats-check



Imo, as I watched him and not the guys above, I am biased, but gonna ahead and say it: he is better than all listed. The question is did he touch "The Gods", and there are 2 of them...The amount of hype R9 gets is mystifying tbh. Sure he was a great dribbler and scored goals but how many of them mattered? He is not on any of those guys level apart from van Basen. The rest of them are just better and have accomplished more and were the fulcrums of their teams. I have no doubt that IF he wasn't injured he would have been on that level but the FACT is, with his talent he achieved very little. Never won a Cl even though he was always in big teams after moving from PSV. You judge players on abilities, application and trophies. R9 won individual awaards, but at his best he won nothing of significance and he was always surrounded by stars. He was just never the same. He applied his talent but what did his teams win? Don't let bias or anger cloud your judgement, be rational, he won the WC in 2002 against all odds. Great for him but on club level, which for me is far more important, he was hot and could, ironically a bit like Zidane. Messi has surpassed him in everyway tbh. Messi has more talent and applies it better and is already being called the greatest,hell maradonas teamamtes have said messi is better. My top 12 arein no order Maradona, Pele, Beckenbauer, Puskas, Di Stefano, Zidane, Messi, Muller, Cruyff, Godincha and guiseppe mezza.

Grande_Milano wrote:This can continue forever, but:

NT>Club

Di Stefano: raw football, also surrounded by stars, some say he was worse than Puskas, plus no NT football doesnt make him Garrincha or Pele, period. If you say so. NT football wasn't really big at that point as I mentioned, it was clunb football, he and ouskas where the first real superstars so say what you want, he is on their level and in fifa vting lists he is always top 5.

Cruyff: yeah, looked, totally forgot about his Ajax career, he has edge here over Ronaldo, but NT accomplishments kinda lower, so I d put him Ronaldo's equal. So three European cups and 1 WC final = 1 WC win and 1 WC final? Just No, he isn't on cruyffs level, didn't have his influence on any level.

Muller: looks equal, its just that he is considered a poacher, thus I assume his skills are lower than Ronaldo's, not achievements. So now we are going into poacher, again I said I rate people on their abilities and their application of thos abilities, they had similar NT careers. Gerd Mller just applied his talent far better than Ronaldo, that is a fact. At the end of the day, Ronaldos most important goal is just the one in the WC final, Gerd Mullers is again i list a WC final, A wuro final and 2 out of three cls. No comparison. He applied his talent much better.




And, lastly, Messi still has a lot of way to go, if you look closely good teams that they really faced are Man U, Chelsea, Inter and RM. Yet he has mad a mockery out of all thos teams. You beat what is put in front of you. Tbh I think football is weak atm, the only outstanding talent atm is Messi, that's it tbh. but Messi is applying his talent far better than R9 did and it's translating into trophies, he is integral to them. As maradona said, if Messi wins the Wc, the plemics between myself and Pele will end. That's from the man himself. R9 is on a tier below Cruyff, Di Stefano, Pele, Maradona, Godicha, Backenbauer and Puskas. I just wish he never got injured because after that injury he just was never the same tbh. That just shows you how good he could have been.

And only 2 of them they beat confidently

jibers wrote:

Grande_Milano wrote:Imo, nobody has done the same impact as these both did:

Beckenbauer? Defender, sadly The best defender and a top 5 player of all time, he was the most creative player in a WC winning NT. He is better than R9. Was the Backbone of one of the greatest club sides of all time

Cruyff? Didnt win big (CL and WC) lol. No CL? He won 3 European cups (CL equivalent) and was one of the main proponents of a footballing style that revolutionised modern football. Without him, Michels would never have developed total football. Again, the best player in arguably THE greatest club side of all time and one of the most influential men in terms of tactics today.

Di Stefano? No international stage+era of Madrid dominance Influenced the entire history of historically, the most prestigious club in world football, He is the best footballer of his generation and is again, part of the most successful club teams of all time. The 5 Cl in a row Madrid. He was the first total footballer. I have seen a few of his matches and he could do everything, attack defend and control. He was playing total football before it even was proposed. Ronaldo is not in his league. No Wc in the 40s and he declared himself for spain like in the late 50s. So again, out of his hands really.
Garrincha? Good case, 1962 was his win, not Pele's, but Pele left a bigger legacy. The media might keep logging Pele down our throats, but trust me on this, pele is not seen as the greatest Brazilian by Brazilians themselves, Godincha is. He is the greatest Brazilaian player Pele living a bigger legacy is down to the way that there was a media explosion around his time. Media hype doesnt make you the best does it? Xavi is the ebst Cm but it took Spain winning the Euros for him to be begrudgingly accepted, now the media re writing eulogies about him..
Van Basten? Injuries+only Euro lol, great player but no, saw most of his career. Could have ben like R9 but injuries curtailed him...SADPlatini? Again, Euro, but not WC...The Xavi of the 80s, great player but just a shade below pele level. Muller? Cant really say he did alone (Maradona) or stood out in his team (Pele) The greatest pure striker of all time. No question. Call R9 what you want but Muller scored MORE and also WHEN IT MATTERED! scored in the WC final that defeated the greatest team to never win the WC, scored in the euro final, scored in 2 out of 3 Cl finals. No competition here really. His statistics are ridiculous. As a striker, he is on his own.



And here we come to Ronaldo, despite all injuries, the best in every club he played, a leader in 98 and 2002 (similar to Maradona-one lost and one won final), cleaned up everything on club level, pesonal awards and stats-check



Imo, as I watched him and not the guys above, I am biased, but gonna ahead and say it: he is better than all listed. The question is did he touch "The Gods", and there are 2 of them...The amount of hype R9 gets is mystifying tbh. Sure he was a great dribbler and scored goals but how many of them mattered? He is not on any of those guys level apart from van Basen. The rest of them are just better and have accomplished more and were the fulcrums of their teams. I have no doubt that IF he wasn't injured he would have been on that level but the FACT is, with his talent he achieved very little. Never won a Cl even though he was always in big teams after moving from PSV. You judge players on abilities, application and trophies. R9 won individual awaards, but at his best he won nothing of significance and he was always surrounded by stars. He was just never the same. He applied his talent but what did his teams win? Don't let bias or anger cloud your judgement, be rational, he won the WC in 2002 against all odds. Great for him but on club level, which for me is far more important, he was hot and could, ironically a bit like Zidane. Messi has surpassed him in everyway tbh. Messi has more talent and applies it better and is already being called the greatest,hell maradonas teamamtes have said messi is better. My top 12 arein no order Maradona, Pele, Beckenbauer, Puskas, Di Stefano, Zidane, Messi, Muller, Cruyff, Godincha and guiseppe mezza.

Hope you enjoyed my points

jibers wrote:

Grande_Milano wrote:Imo, nobody has done the same impact as these both did:

Beckenbauer? Defender, sadly The best defender and a top 5 player of all time, he was the most creative player in a WC winning NT. He is better than R9. Was the Backbone of one of the greatest club sides of all time

Cruyff? Didnt win big (CL and WC) lol. No CL? He won 3 European cups (CL equivalent) and was one of the main proponents of a footballing style that revolutionised modern football. Without him, Michels would never have developed total football. Again, the best player in arguably THE greatest club side of all time and one of the most influential men in terms of tactics today.

Di Stefano? No international stage+era of Madrid dominance Influenced the entire history of historically, the most prestigious club in world football, He is the best footballer of his generation and is again, part of the most successful club teams of all time. The 5 Cl in a row Madrid. He was the first total footballer. I have seen a few of his matches and he could do everything, attack defend and control. He was playing total football before it even was proposed. Ronaldo is not in his league. No Wc in the 40s and he declared himself for spain like in the late 50s. So again, out of his hands really.
Garrincha? Good case, 1962 was his win, not Pele's, but Pele left a bigger legacy. The media might keep logging Pele down our throats, but trust me on this, pele is not seen as the greatest Brazilian by Brazilians themselves, Godincha is. He is the greatest Brazilaian player Pele living a bigger legacy is down to the way that there was a media explosion around his time. Media hype doesnt make you the best does it? Xavi is the ebst Cm but it took Spain winning the Euros for him to be begrudgingly accepted, now the media re writing eulogies about him..
Van Basten? Injuries+only Euro lol, great player but no, saw most of his career. Could have ben like R9 but injuries curtailed him...SADPlatini? Again, Euro, but not WC...The Xavi of the 80s, great player but just a shade below pele level. Muller? Cant really say he did alone (Maradona) or stood out in his team (Pele) The greatest pure striker of all time. No question. Call R9 what you want but Muller scored MORE and also WHEN IT MATTERED! scored in the WC final that defeated the greatest team to never win the WC, scored in the euro final, scored in 2 out of 3 Cl finals. No competition here really. His statistics are ridiculous. As a striker, he is on his own.



And here we come to Ronaldo, despite all injuries, the best in every club he played, a leader in 98 and 2002 (similar to Maradona-one lost and one won final), cleaned up everything on club level, pesonal awards and stats-check



Imo, as I watched him and not the guys above, I am biased, but gonna ahead and say it: he is better than all listed. The question is did he touch "The Gods", and there are 2 of them...The amount of hype R9 gets is mystifying tbh. Sure he was a great dribbler and scored goals but how many of them mattered? He is not on any of those guys level apart from van Basen. The rest of them are just better and have accomplished more and were the fulcrums of their teams. I have no doubt that IF he wasn't injured he would have been on that level but the FACT is, with his talent he achieved very little. Never won a Cl even though he was always in big teams after moving from PSV. You judge players on abilities, application and trophies. R9 won individual awaards, but at his best he won nothing of significance and he was always surrounded by stars. He was just never the same. He applied his talent but what did his teams win? Don't let bias or anger cloud your judgement, be rational, he won the WC in 2002 against all odds. Great for him but on club level, which for me is far more important, he was hot and could, ironically a bit like Zidane. Messi has surpassed him in everyway tbh. Messi has more talent and applies it better and is already being called the greatest,hell maradonas teamamtes have said messi is better. My top 12 arein no order Maradona, Pele, Beckenbauer, Puskas, Di Stefano, Zidane, Messi, Muller, Cruyff, Godincha and guiseppe mezza.

Hope you enjoyed my points