A public apology

Ever one to admit when I have been wrong. I would like to retract comments that I have made in the past about Xabi Alonso's quality and ability as a player. I do not know if he has been working even harder, since we bulked up our central midfield options in the last transfer window, but Xabi is WC.

In a team that utilises the "deep lying playmaker", he could walk into any team in the world. A truly outstanding player and definitely has more ability than just a very good long ball. All hail one of the most important cogs in the Real Madrid machine!

Just from what I have seen so far this year, it looks like he is going to have an outstanding season. I think "Mr consistency" is going to bring those consistent 7 out of 10 performances up to consistent 8's or 9's this year

(no homo)

Watch this man!

Sigh....It's criminal that Barca fans not only think that Xavi is infinitely better than Xabi, but most of them actually think BUSQUETS is better than him as well.Xabi can easily catch up to Xavi in the coming years.

Xavi is overrated. he can't do what Xabi does for us but Xabi can do what Xavi does for them and still they say Xavi is better than Xabi.

When it comes to really dictating play, Xavi is better than Xabi but like most things in life, it gets hyperbole to shit and that's what occurs a lot among football fans. Xavi is better but not by a serious amount. Also, Xabi and Xavi have different positions and styles that are needed to benefit their team hence why both can actually play on the same team and not conflict one another...

Playing Busquets and Alonso usually is a bit redundant in my opinion though...

Na Xavi is slightly overrated by some but Xabi cannot do what xavi does. He really plays each pass inch perfect short and simple and waits for the right moment to pounce.Alonso is a risk taker , and tries to play spectacular passes, at the wrong time and misplaces many short passes that Xavi would never misplace. All in all tho Alonso , considering the speed we have up front could very well end up becoming a bigger legend than Xavi in the coming years.

People forget that Xavi only truly Came into his current peak at 3 years ago , at the same age Alonso is now.

Some good cross evaluations of Xabi and Xavi, but yes ultimately they are not in competition with each other (very different players)

I pose another question:

Is Xabi currently better than Pirlo in his prime (+-5 years back)?

Could Xabi be the best deep lying playmaker of the modern era?

Tough to say .

Yes Xabi could be remembered one day as the best deep lying playmaker of the modern era , but personally I don't think he's quite at the level , pirlo was at 5 years ago .

ragbirjosh wrote:Sigh....It's criminal that Barca fans not only think that Xavi is infinitely better than Xabi, but most of them actually think BUSQUETS is better than him as well.Xabi can easily catch up to Xavi in the coming years.

They never said that Busquets is the better as a player overall.

I kinda agree with them that Spain needs to play 4-3-3 with a midfield of Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets rather than the Xabi-Busquets double pivot.

If Spain is to play the Possession game then why not use the Barca system? In a double pivot Xavi is forced to play a more advanced role w/c is not his best position and the same with Iniesta who is played wide.

Simply because Spain isn't Barcelona. No matter how much you try to make it Barcelona you will fail.

As a defensive tactic the starving the opposition of the ball using posession tactic has worked for Spain.

Tiki Taka requires much more cohesion , in offense to the point where everyone is completely in sync, something that can't be achieved in 2 days of training or even a month. As an attacking tactic tiki taka has been a failure for Spain. Xabi gives them options in attack that no one else does.

ragbirjosh wrote:Simply because Spain isn't Barcelona. No matter how much you try to make it Barcelona you will fail.

As a defensive tactic the starving the opposition of the ball using posession tactic has worked for Spain.

Tiki Taka requires much more cohesion , in offense to the point where everyone is completely in sync, something that can't be achieved in 2 days of training or even a month. As an attacking tactic tiki taka has been a failure for Spain. Xabi gives them options in attack that no one else does.

Yeah that's my point. They still try to play tiki taka then why not start the players who excel on it?

Xabi isn't that great at closed spaces and keeping possession w/c unfortunately, Busquets, Iniesta and Xavi excels at.

Idk but i rather bench a WC player than make 2 WC players play out of position.

I rather put the best players on the field rather than let players play because they fit a system.Posession is a defensive tactic for Spain, offensively they can do better than tiki taka.

I think they can play posession without tiki taka . That may sound stupid to many but I think it can be done.Unless posession is just tiki taka in english , in which case I'm sounding pretty stupid.

ragbirjosh wrote:I rather put the best players on the field rather than let players play because they fit a system.Posession is a defensive tactic for Spain, offensively they can do better than tiki taka.

I think they can play posession without tiki taka . That may sound stupid to many but I think it can be done.

Oh well that's where we differ.

Anyway i respect your opinion. But i will never agree to it.

Agree to disagree then?

Jack Daniels wrote:

ragbirjosh wrote:Simply because Spain isn't Barcelona. No matter how much you try to make it Barcelona you will fail.

As a defensive tactic the starving the opposition of the ball using posession tactic has worked for Spain.

Tiki Taka requires much more cohesion , in offense to the point where everyone is completely in sync, something that can't be achieved in 2 days of training or even a month. As an attacking tactic tiki taka has been a failure for Spain. Xabi gives them options in attack that no one else does.

Yeah that's my point. They still try to play tiki taka then why not start the players who excel on it?

Xabi isn't that great at closed spaces and keeping possession w/c unfortunately, Busquets, Iniesta and Xavi excels at.

Idk but i rather bench a WC player than make 2 WC players play out of position.

Wrong IMO on two levels there:

1) I believe Spain plays a good possession game, but it is not tiki taka.

2) Even if you play a midfield 3 of Xabi, Xavi and Iniesta you still won't achieve that ultimate Tiki Taka for one simple reason. NO MESSI. Messi is also pivotal to the success of Tiki Taka because he is constantly dropping deep to become the shadowed 4th midfield man to create that crazy short interplay.

Spain has nobody that is comfortable enough to drop deep and play exquisite 1-2's and quick short passes. Villa can't do it and neither can Torres and or Llorente. You could try making a false 9 out of David Silva but it is not going to be as crisp.

Villa------------Pedro
-----Silva (false 9)--
Iniesta--------------
----------Xavi------
----Alonso----------

:looks very good on paper, but really not sure if it can work.

This thread is really starting to derail but its enjoyable, lets run with it!

[quote="Giovanni10"]

Jack Daniels wrote:
Wrong IMO on two levels there:

1) I believe Spain plays a good possession game, but it is not tiki taka.
Well your beliefs differs from the majority of the world. So i go with the others.

2) Even if you play a midfield 3 of Xabi, Xavi and Iniesta you still won't achieve that ultimate Tiki Taka for one simple reason. NO MESSI. Messi is also pivotal to the success of Tiki Taka because he is constantly dropping deep to become the shadowed 4th midfield man to create that crazy short interplay.
Remember when Messi wasn't deployed as a false 9? They were still good. Very good actually A false 9 is just an upgrade on tiki taka but not a necessity.

Spain has nobody that is comfortable enough to drop deep and play exquisite 1-2's and quick short passes. Villa can't do it and neither can Torres and or Llorente. You could try making a false 9 out of David Silva but it is not going to be as crisp.

Villa------------Pedro
-----Silva (false 9)--
Iniesta--------------
----------Xavi------
----Alonso----------

:looks very good on paper, but really not sure if it can work.

This thread is really starting to derail but its enjoyable, lets run with it!

I didn't say they don't try to play tiki taka, I'm just saying that it has consistently failed as an offensive tactic.

Offensively Spain needs more options than tiki taka. Xabi , along with Mata , Navas, Pedro all bring a different element to the team and give them thosse options.Posession + Hybrid tiki taka combined with counter attack and wingplay is the offensive option that best suits Spain. See Euro 2008 Spain team for more information.

Euro08 winning squad IMO worked well because Xabi had Senna beside him hence Xabi got his perfect double pivot partner w/c he won't get with Busquets on his side.

Now Spain dsn't even have a replacement for Senna. It was pretty obvious with the downgrade we saw in the WC even though they still won.

Spain insist too much on Tiki Taka. Tiki Taka is a way of playing which needs elite players at every position. Spain is trying to do what Barca does but it's not possible because they don't have Alves. people thinks Alves is just a part of Barcelona but his influence on the team is obvious. you can't ask Ramos to do what Alves is doing for them. the other factor is Messi which makes Tiki Taka very effective. he does the impossible thing that every player can't do. you can have the ball for all the times but there should be some piece of magic to make it more effective and Spain is lacking those "X-Factors".

What Spain is trying to do atm is a bit like what Batista tried to do with Argentine. however Spain at least have a proper midfielder that can give them possession. Argentine have the best piece of this but they don't have the midfield that gives Messi more freedom to do what he wants.

And also someone that you can't write him off and his name is Pep Guardiola, the mastermind of Tiki Taka. neither Batista nor Del Bosque can be like him.

I agree to an extent.I think that the posession game is so dominant now that we could survive without the workhorse. Fab could push back alongside Xabi in the pivot, he has had enough experience in a similar system, and honestly has done quite well there for very long.

Xavi can have a free role to roam across midfield to play posession.

[quote="Jack Daniels"]

Giovanni10 wrote:

Jack Daniels wrote:
Wrong IMO on two levels there:

1) I believe Spain plays a good possession game, but it is not tiki taka.
Well your beliefs differs from the majority of the world. So i go with the others.

2) Even if you play a midfield 3 of Xabi, Xavi and Iniesta you still won't achieve that ultimate Tiki Taka for one simple reason. NO MESSI. Messi is also pivotal to the success of Tiki Taka because he is constantly dropping deep to become the shadowed 4th midfield man to create that crazy short interplay.
Remember when Messi wasn't deployed as a false 9? They were still good. Very good actually A false 9 is just an upgrade on tiki taka but not a necessity.

Spain has nobody that is comfortable enough to drop deep and play exquisite 1-2's and quick short passes. Villa can't do it and neither can Torres and or Llorente. You could try making a false 9 out of David Silva but it is not going to be as crisp.

Villa------------Pedro
-----Silva (false 9)--
Iniesta--------------
----------Xavi------
----Alonso----------

:looks very good on paper, but really not sure if it can work.

This thread is really starting to derail but its enjoyable, lets run with it!

As a new improvement on lets call it the Ideology of Tiki Taka, i believe that this "false 9" is the best possible way to play Tiki Taka and that the adaptation should become rule for the future.

I wouldn't say the majority of the world feel Spain NT play the same way Barca do. Maybe moronic British punditry do: "Oh well look at that, thats just the Spanish way of playing, sleek smooth interplay, Tiki Taka!" - I've heard that kind of statement before I, do not agree with it.

Spain play a possession game, but it is a wider game than Barca. Barca use overlapping fullbacks for width, whereas Spain make use of a lot of natural width from their forwards. You have the frequent use of players like Navas and Carzola and even players like Villa, David Silva and Pedro play/move a lot wider playing for Spain than for their respective club teams.

I feel that just because you play Xavi, Iniesta, Thiago etc it does not necessarily instantly make it Tiki Taka, and if I were del Bosque, I would take offense to someone saying that Spains play is just basically Barca Tiki Taka.

Similarly, Aragonese's Spain Euro 2008 winning side also relied heavily on a different tactic, because Luis liked a CF who could hold the ball up (so he used either of the Llorente's, Torres or Guiza) for that purpose.. I'm not saying it was not the best tactics but it was also a different flavoured Spain.

There are subtle differences between the 2008, 2010 and current Spain that make all the difference here. It hasn't just been 4-5 years of NT Tiki Taka.

IMO 2008 team was better. Spain were lucky at the world cup that guys pulled amazing individual goals out of nowhere, cuz in attack tiki taka was failing.

ragbirjosh wrote:IMO 2008 team was better. Spain were lucky at the world cup that guys pulled amazing individual goals out of nowhere, cuz in attack tiki taka was failing.

Euro 2008, Senna was a beast, pivotal to that side.. 2010 they needed to re-adapt without him and I thought they did well to maintain their momentum even though one of the pivotal player to the old system had declined so quickly.

I just think they'll do fine in defense with posession. In attack they need some serious work. I don't really pay attention to these friendlies an entire year away from meaningful competition.

Xavi is better than Alonso.

Busquets is a DM, Alonso is a deep lying playmaker. Would you trust Alonso as your only true DM? Or would your trust Busquets?

Spain don't need to start with Alonso. Busquets, Xavi and Iniesta should be the starting midfield trio.

Apology for what? He still has the same strengths and weaknesses

I think Alonso has grown even more into his role at Madrid this season,
he will be even more vital this season I feel.

I also think he still needs to play for Spain - Spain plays better without Xavi than without Alonso tbh.

But whenever I say this I get a wave of Barca and other fans screaming at me calling me a fanboy. I guess I am, but no one has ever giving me convincing proof that Xavi is indeed better than Alonso. If Alonso would play at Barcelona instead of Xavi, they would say the same.